Question for Sig P238/938 owners

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As for a holster for the P238 that covers the safety, it's probably not necessary. If the safety is somehow disengaged there is still the grip safety and several other internal protections that come into play.
The P238 doesn't have a grip safety. That's another of the ways it's different from 1911s. However, the thumb safety detente is very positive, and the trigger pull is rather -- ehem -- stout.

I have been carrying a P238 cocked-and-locked in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster for going on four years now with no problems. It has never come off safe in my pocket, even though the holster doesn't cover the safety lever. As others have said, you will have more chance of an unintended discharge when lowering the hammer on a live round -- especially with such a small gun -- than you will carrying it cocked-and-locked.
 
khari said:
I've seen the cocked vs not cocked debate a few times but never paid much attention to it because I always intended to carry mine safety on, uncocked (always with a round chambered though).
I often see people who carry single-action semi-autos in Condition 2 like you describe (a round in the chamber and uncocked) who do so because they think carrying in Condition 1 (cocked-and-locked) is unsafe. But in most cases, Condition 2 is far less safe (and less effective) than Condition 1. Carrying a gun like the P938 in Condition 1 is perfectly safe; in order to fired it accidentally you'd have to both disengage the manual safety and press the trigger.

Yet in order to carry it in Condition 2 the way you're describing, you have to pull the trigger with a live round in the chamber. That's a terrible idea; you're running the risk of an ND every time you load your pistol, and on top of that you're making it so you need to cock the hammer in order to make the pistol ready to fire.

By carrying in Condition 2 you're being less safe and you're making the gun slower to bring into action. Not a good combination.
 
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By carrying in Condition 2 you're being less safe and you're making the gun slower to bring into action.
Especially if you also have the safety engaged, as the person said he/she intended to do. First of all, there's no reason to engage the safety because when the gun is uncocked, the trigger is dead; it can't do anything. Second, that makes two actions you have to do before you can fire the gun: disengage the safety and cock the gun. Depending of the size of your hand, thumb-cocking a tiny gun can involve some contortions that you don't want to get involved with when you need your gun to protect yourself.
 
I am enjoying this friendly and informative dialog on carry conditions for P238/P938s. The more we know and understand, the safer we will be. My P238 is one of my favorite guns.
 
Depending of the size of your hand, thumb-cocking a tiny gun can involve some contortions that you don't want to get involved with when you need your gun to protect yourself.

I don't have large hands and I find the 238/938 to not be a natural thumb-cocker. OTOH, a PPK/S is a natural and I used to think the old Colt Mustang worked pretty well, though I can't remember why it should have been any better that the 238, but that's my memory. I like the 238 way better, though.
 
I don't have large hands and I find the 238/938 to not be a natural thumb-cocker. OTOH, a PPK/S is a natural and I used to think the old Colt Mustang worked pretty well, though I can't remember why it should have been any better that the 238, but that's my memory. I like the 238 way better, though.
Gary, the P238 and the Colt Mustang are nearly identical. The mags even interchange.
 
They are very similar, I agree. I am going from memory but the hammers are shaped somewhat differently and I believe the Colts were more of a rounder, true knurled hammer. My memory tells me that something about the shape of the Colt made it an easier reach and purchase to thumbcock for my hand and my thumb. Magazine interchangeability really has nothing to do with it. They also lock up differently, which also has nothing to do with it. Your hand and reach are no doubt different but I have had a lifetime of experience with my my own hands and have some expertise at what fits. But, of course, my memory could be wrong. I still like my little Sig better than the Colt Mustang and I carry cocked and locked so thumb cocking is not a concern.
 
Yep, great info offered in this thread, thanks to you all. I have inquired with El Paso Saddlery to see if the Pocket Max works with the P938. If no, I'll definitely be getting the Galco. Yeah I know, Tolvo has been using the Nemesis for a while. I think this will help me feel better about condition 1 carry though.
 
Yep, great info offered in this thread, thanks to you all. I have inquired with El Paso Saddlery to see if the Pocket Max works with the P938. If no, I'll definitely be getting the Galco. Yeah I know, Tolvo has been using the Nemesis for a while. I think this will help me feel better about condition 1 carry though.

I have the Galco pocket holster - so, far...what a pain. It comes out of the pocket with the pocket insides and the gun every time I pull the pistol. I lined the pistol with wax paper and stuffed it in the holster for several days. Still no give. I was told to slide the pistol in an out, in and out, in and out, in and out to smooth the release. Somebody else suggested I use some kind of leather oil. I went back to my $9.00 Wally World nylon holster. I love the looks of the Galco however, and will not give up on it. My 5.7 also has a Galco OWB hip holster. Different beast, different design, no tugging problems.
 
Another similarity between the SIG's and Mustang is they use the same trigger. It's a common mod to change to one to get a metal trigger in a silver color.

As for carrying a P938 in the pocket - I have one and a Kahr CW380. Both have a 6 pound trigger pull, and if I didn't have the safety on with the SIG, the only difference would be the extra length of pull on the Kahr. About a quarter inch.

How much safer is a quarter inch of trigger pull all other things being equal?

This is why a pocket holster is your final safety, regardless of the gun used. It's Glock's primary recommendation, too. They have been telling users to only carry in a hard sided holster which completely covers the trigger since the first ones were imported. Looking at the ND's in the field its a significant issue - owners carrying in soft leather or fabric holsters have more self inflicted discharges IMHO. It's really no different if the trigger doesn't have that SAFE thingy in it - when something starts pushing on it, there is only a matter of how far, not it can't.

I would sooner carry the P938 with safety on bare in the pocket than any DA or SAFE action trigger.

As for carrying with none in the chamber at all then it's your choice, however, your level of awareness should match and your first tactic in response will more likely be flight than fight. At which point you could carry in a shoulder, ankle, or groin holster loaded and be incrementally equal. Access to a loaded weapon would be about the same amount of time, whether under clothing loaded or from a pocket then racked to load.

The real issue is the gun carrier simply isn't comfortable with loaded carry. I understand - I hated loaded carry in a first gen LCP but give it no thought with a Kahr CW380. No difference at all in the basic trigger actuation - it's entirely between the ears that makes the difference. I sold the LCP and immediately got over it.

If a gun won't "let" you carry loaded then don't carry it. It just qualified as range use only. Your determination of the facts is what counts, so, go along with it and find something you can carry.
 
I'm not sure why there are so many complaints about the safety on a 1911.

Largely, I believe there are multiple common complaints with the 1911 safety:

1) It has a safety, period. Many folks, myself being one of them, prefer to NOT have a safety in a defensive firearm. This is a subjective preference, and no real fault of the design, but it gives a lot of folks an excuse to thumb their nose at the 1911. I'll roll in here a few nuances - if you reduce the resistance of the safety to not be a problem during a defensive shooting situation, then it becomes easier to "bump off," and alternatively, if you make it resistant to bump off, then the safety becomes too resistant during a defensive shooting... They're not really valid arguments, but they sure sound like it to new shooters and guys who like to regurgitate crap they hear online.

2) A popular opinion that a cocked firearm isn't a safe firearm. Too many folks are uncomfortable with carrying a cocked hammer, but the design of the 1911 is such it can ONLY be carried "safely" in Condition 1. Despite the designed safeties, those folks don't believe the cocked hammer is safe, period. So then you fall to questions like the OP's, wanting to carry in Condition 2, thinking decocked is safer than cocked, which just isn't correct. I know hunters who won't even carry their bolt action rifles loaded until they get to their stand, because they're worried about the striker being cocked over a live round, even with the safety engaged. While the 1911/238/938 designs incorporate a lot of additional safety features, there are folks who simply don't believe you can make an unsafe condition, the cocked hammer, safe enough to be as safe as an uncocked hammer.

3) A good defensive habit can also be a risky habit during administrative handling of the firearm, and the 1911 safety must be bypassed for administrative unloading. The most valid complaint I would reference, is the risk of administrative ND's because the action can't be manipulated with the safety engaged. Here's why, in my opinion as a carrier and as an instructor, this is a difficult problem to overcome: We develop the habit through shooting practice to only disengage the safety when we're ready to fire, so when we practice, we develop the automatic behavioral pattern of: "thumb to safety, off, index finger to trigger, bang." So at the end of the day, we pick up the pistol, drop the mag, disengage the safety, and our index finger automatically reaches for the trigger. Because that's what we've practiced over and over at the range. Equally, I've even seen guys unintentionally disengage the safety when they draw the pistol from their holster for non-firing purposes, simply because they practice their draw stroke to incorporate disengagement of the safety. The more we practice to develop good shooting habits, the greater we risk ND's during administrative handling of the firearm. We're all human, actions happen by mistake occasionally, but actions happen by HABIT a lot more often. If your practice to only release your safety when you're ready to shoot develops a habit WHICH IS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF PRACTICING, then it's a natural follow on to catch your finger reaching for the trigger after releasing the safety to unload.

The Sig P238/938 design eliminates this risk of administrative ND compared to the 1911 design, but ONLY IF CARRIED IN CONDITION 1!! When carried in Condition 1, at the end of the day, the shooter can drop the mag and open the action to clear the chamber without releasing the safety. In condition 2, the safety must be disengaged to open the action.

The major problem with Condition 2 carry, of course - is drop safety. In Condition 2, loaded chamber, hammer down, the grip safety (in a 1911) and firing pin block have been bypassed. THE ONLY REMAINING SAFETY FEATURE TO PREVENT A DROP DISCHARGE WHEN CARRYING IN CONDITION 2 IS THE INERTIAL FIRING PIN. If a guy drops the pistol on the hammer in Condition 2, the pin CAN bounce hard enough to fire, whereas in Condition 1, the only way it can drop hard enough to fire would be if dropped on the muzzle. If dropped on the hammer in Condition 1, even if the sear is broken, the half cock notch and firing pin block safeties will prevent a discharge. In Condition 2, both of those safeties have been defeated. If I had to have a drop discharge, I'd much rather have it hit the ground first, even if it ricochets, than have it fire upward.

Of course, the other problem with Condition 2 carry in a P238/938, is a guy then has to release the safety AND cock the hammer to be able to fire, which is an extra step in the draw stroke compared to condition 1 carry, and an extra step which could be fumbled, rendering the pistol useless. In the event of a defensive scenario, slipping the hammer, which some might THINK would cause an ND, would drop the hammer to half cock, and render the pistol and most likely the shooter, dead in the water.
 
Wow, you are talkative today Varminterror. I especially agree with your third point. To that end I have made it a strict practice not to unload a semi-auto handgun without stopping, looking directly at what I'm doing, making sure my trigger finger is indexed along the side and then racking the slide to remove the chambered round. You are so correct if you do it without thinking your finger will go to the trigger, if you have done enough practice.

The only carry gun I carry with the manual safety engaged is the 1911. Since I'm mostly a revolver guy that isn't difficult to do lol.
 
Boring day short on work, but I'm still "on call," so I'm not out shooting, I'm stuck behind the computer...

Avoiding ND's just takes diligence. I use a completely different mag drop and rack process. I practice my administrative unloads holding the pistol laying flat in both hands, grip in right hand such my right fingertips are lined up along the grip panel, then press the mag release with my left thumb. I release the safety with my right thumb, at which point my index finger can't reach the trigger, and the grip safety isn't fully depressed, and physically, the sensation how I am holding it is in a completely different position than my practiced shooting happens. My hands are strong enough I don't have to assume a full grip to rack the slide then, so I complete the unload without ever assuming a shooters grip, and without my finger ever being close enough to reach the trigger. My left fingers can even blind the trigger guard's right side.

We're all human though, so I'm sure there are plenty of nights I forget and inadvertently do a shooting unload instead of an administrative unload.
 
Late answer to the OP's original question, which is, yes, of course I carry both the P-938 (often carried) and the P-238 (seldom carried) cocked and locked.

Not a fan of pocket holsters; I like OWB on the strong side about 3:00. The Kramer Belt Scabbards (pictured) hold the pistols close and invisible even under a tighter (untucked) shirt. The light pistols and small size with a good holster make it so I can wear one of these for twelve or more hours and don't ever get an uncomfortable reminder that I'm wearing a gun.

Condition 1 is how these pistols are intended to be carried.

 
Simple answer here - the 938 isn't a 1911. It's a hammer fired Sig design, based on their P238, which is based on a Colt Mustang, which is based on a 1911...
You were right up to and including the Colt Mustang, but the Mustang copied the Spanish Star DK's system, almost exactly. The disconnector is on the other side on the Star I think, which means the trigger bar might be bent to that side also, I've never even seen one outside of photos.

The Sig/Colt system also has a trigger firing pin block. But most effective of all is the Star safety design, it not only locks the sear but it also lifts the hammer hooks off the sear! So the hammer is lifted and blocked. I would not believe any story about one going off with the safety in the on position, not that I've heard of it. Plus, again, there is the firing pin block so I just don't know how it's even possible to have a true accidental discharge with one, only a negligent discharge.

BTW, a bit of history (From my well known faulty memory), Colt was slated to come out with an exact copy of Star's DK back around 1970, even ran ads in gun mags. But after taking delivery of fifty of the jobbed out guns they decided they didn't want their name on them, the company that made them was in Florida I think. Colt was going to sell them as the "Colt Pony", not the same Colt Pony they put on the market later that was DAO, this was an exact copy of the Star EXCEPT! The Star has an aluminum alloy frame, the Pony had a steel frame. There is no doubt in my mind that Colt changed a few things around without changing the design of the lockwork when they came out later with the Mustang. By that time, or shortly after, Star was gone, so I wonder if they ever got any royalties. The first Colt Pony, if you can find one, is very rare, as at least 48 of the 50 were destroyed by Colt IIRC.
 
Also late to the party, but I also carry a P938 (daily) in Condition 1. I normally carry IWB with a Stealthgear Onyx. I love that holster!
 
Personally, there is abolutely no sense in carrying with an empty chamber. I really don't care to hear the same BS opinions otherwise - either you're comfortable carrying a loaded firearm, or you are not. Carrying with an empty chamber is not "loaded" in the instant you need it to save your life.
Totally agree. I carry my P938 every day in Condition 1.
 
I went and picked up a pocket holster from El Paso Saddlery, so now I feel more comfortable carrying cocked and locked. Tried it today and I didn't shoot my kneecap off, so I'm good to go now. Thanks folks!
 
Yes, condition 1. Less chance of a ND than with a striker pistol, such as a Glock. There's a reason for the phrase "Glock leg".
I disagree with your conclusion that Glock is more likely to have an ND than a 1911 based gun. The both are exactly safe if handled properly. A good holster and good habits will insure either will never have a ND. Otherwise, either is unsafe to carry.
 
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