Question for the 1911 experts.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

First, I'd like to thank the genuine experts on this forum who have taken the time to answer my questions about handguns. My 1911 was jamming. Based upon the recommendations of the kind folks on THR I changed the recoil spring from 18.5 pounds to 16 pounds. I just got back from the range and she performed flawlessly.

Only, several times when I dropped the slide on a fresh clip, the hammer followed the slide down. It couldn't have anything to do with the new recoil spring, but maybe has something to do with the trigger job I had done about 2000 rounds ago.

When it was new (1978) I shipped it off to Clark Custom Guns for an accuracy job. I specified the trigger pull was to be 3.5 pounds. I'm thinking that might be too light. I sure would hate for the thing to go full auto on me.

What say ye?

Thanx in advance.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well some question the Old Fuff's status as an expert ...

A 3 1/2 pound trigger pull is pretty light for anything but a true bullseye target pistol using reduced mid-range loads. I suspect that the sear spring has taken a set over time, and that, combined with the light pull is letting the hammer follow down. This could result in the pistol double firing or even going fully-automatic unexpectedly. Obviously this is a dangerous condition.

You, or a COMPETENT pistolsmith can remove the spring and bend the center and left limbs slightly forward. Then reassemble the spring and see what happens. Test fire while loading two cartridges and no more. If the trouble persists return the pistol to Clark and have them correct it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Followdown

Two questions:

Did it fall all the way to the firing pin stop, or did it stop on the half-cock?

Does it follow with the trigger held to the rear when you release the slide...
or only with your finger off trigger?

I know. Technically that's 4 questions...Or is it two with sub-questions?

Wait! That's FIVE questions!

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

"Did it fall all the way to the firing pin stop, or did it stop on the half-cock?

Does it follow with the trigger held to the rear when you release the slide...
or only with your finger off trigger?"

It fell to the half-cock, today. I did not have my finger on the trigger.

 

[1911Tuner]

Followdown

Okay...Fell to half-cock, finger off trigger. Just this once...Let the slide slam
on and empty chamber from lock with the trigger pulled fully to the rear. If
the hammer follows, you likely have a hammer/sear engagement problem.
Try bending the left leg of the sear spring toward the sear. Be careful to support it just above the junction or you'll snap it off.

If it doesn't follow, the trigger may be nudging it off because of the inertia.
The gun jerks forward and the trigger stands still...touching the disconnect.
If it has a lightened mainspring, the hammer could be losing contact with the sear for a split second and making it easier for the trigger to rotate the sear.
With the short hammer hooks, it doesn't take much.

Try bending the center leg of the spring toward the trigger to put a little more tension on it. If that corrects it, you may want to consider a standard 23-pound mainspring if yours is less...which it probably is...and forego the 3.5-pound trigger. You'll get used to 4.5 quickly.

You can also put a bit more arch in the lower part of the sear spring...the full width...to increase tension on all three leaves across the board...but you may want to consider a new one just the same. Like Fuff said...it may have taken a set, or it may have been tweaked past its elastic limit. I recommend the factory Colt sear springs. Brownells has'em for about 4 bucks.

At some point, you may need a new hammer and sear. Try to find a stock Colt take-off...pre-Series 80 if you can find one. There are probably several custom shops that have'em lying around that they'll sell, or give away. If I
remember correctly, Cylinder & Slide offers hammers with .023 hooks in case you can't find a Colt hammer. I consider .023 as minimum length for a carry gun, and I like .025 better. Test the gun with two rounds per magazine after you make the adjustments...several times...before you trust it.

Luck!

 

[medmo]

When you drop the slide are you pulling on the trigger? In normal operation you can't take you finger pressure off of the trigger when this is happening. It is generally a bad idea to drop the slide on a 1911 without pushing the trigger to the rear or you are beating up the sear/hammer engagement surface.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

By "drop the slide" I mean the following:

The slide is locked back.

I insert a fresh clip.

I hold the grip with my finger off the trigger.

I pull the slide back with my off hand and let it strip a bullet from the clip as the slide moves forward.

The gun is now ready to fire.

 

[1911Tuner]

Holding the Trigger

Pulling the trigger and holding it was once common practice for Bullseye pistols with twitchy trigger jobs, and the purpose was to keep the disconnect
from connecting the trigger and sear. It was pretty much a necessity then because of the heavy steel triggers and such. Today, we have lighter triggers and hammers to work with, which pretty much does away with the need for it.

Holding the trigger before dropping the slide isn't a good idea in the fast=paced action games played today. In the heat of a close stage,
the sequence of "Insert magazine...Pull trigger...Release slide" can easily become: Insert magazine...Release slide....Pull trigger" when the gun may not be pointed downrange. Most IDPA/IPSC match direcors won't allow it
anyway. Slow-fire Bullseye matches....fine...but not in a running game
and definitely not on a carry or duty gun.

If the hammer follows during a slidelock reload, it's a sign that the gun needs
attention. The cure may be as simple as a sear spring tweak or replacement...or it may need more.

 

[Jim K]

Just a general thought.

I am becoming somewhat alarmed by the number of postings on various sites to the effect that:

"I just got my CCW and I am going to carry a 1911 because I think it is a great gun and I want to get a .00002 ounce trigger pull and I am going to get a file and stone just like I read about and then I will go out and ...."

Anyway, you get the picture. A street gun which may be used in a tight situation is no place for a target trigger pull, let alone for the ridiculous nonsense some folks want. With adrenalin pumping and things going to hell in a hurry, the person with that kind of gun is more likely to shoot himself or spray bullets all over the place than to do any damage to an attacker. And if that happens and an innocent bystander is killed, the "self defense shooter" becomes the bad guy and goes to jail for a long time.

There is an idea that "I" (whoever it is) will never panic, will never lose composure. If attacked, "I" will calmly draw my pistol, take careful aim, and put a bullet in exactly the right place, every time. "I" will never have the shakes, "I" will never have any unwanted body functions, "I" will never dodge, or duck, or show fear. "I" will stand straight and tall, with the proper stance, just like in the gun magazines. "I" will be a solid rock afterwards, and fully cognizant of my rights and duties as I calmly explain the situation to the police. And of course, they will see sweet reason and release "me" with thanks, as well as return my gun.

Anyone need a reality adjustment here? Maybe some current real world LEOs will chime in and tell "me" what really happens if "I" shoot someone in the street.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

Jim Keenan:

Well said ... and Tuner and I have been saying the same thing for a long time. On a 1911 style pistol a trigger pull should be at least 4 1/2 pounds, and one a pound or pound-and-a-half heavier is better. In addition the hammer hooks should be deep enough to insure the safety lock's function will not be compromised. Unfortunately they're very few (so called) pistolsmiths who understand how to set up a true combat gun (not the gamer's version). Tuner is an exception to the rule, and we are very lucky to have him around.

 

[saltydog452]

What Fuff said...

I go along with Fuff. 1911Tuner offered to help with a cantenkerous Officers Model that I have. Others offered wit and criticism, Tuner offered to help.

Thanks John.

salty.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Agree with tha above. It may sound elitist, but the 1911 is not a "beginners" weapon, especially for carry.

And it's very easy to play gunsmith on a 1911, so lots of people want to try it. What they don't realize is that it may be easy to DO, but not to DO RIGHT.

I have over 20 years experience carrying and fiddling with 1911's, and I don't even THINK about doing my own 'smith work on anything I may carry or trust with my life.

If you're playing with a range toy, go ahead, it can be very educational.

If this is a defensive weapon STOP. Take it to a true 1911 expert and let him do his thing. Pay well for the service and be glad you have a rock solid weapon. Old Fuff is right about this, it's sure hard to find a true 1911
expert anymore that isn't just building race guns, but they are out there.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Lucky? I dunno, Fuff...There are conflicting reports on that point.

Jim's wit and candor puts a gunfight into a little different perspective that some haven't really thought through. The notion of standing firm and shooting with cold, calculated precision has been managed by a few.
Wild Bill Hickock was one such...Possibly Wyatt Earp, or more likely
John (Doc) Holliday, who was a walkin' dead man anyway, and didn't really care if he lived or died. The reality for most of us is that when it breaks loose, we'll be duckin' and runnin' like a raped ape. Not the sort of situation that you wanna be in with a ticklishly-triggered single-action autopistol. Can't speak for anybody else...but I want about 5.5 to 6 pounds on mine.

Saltydog mah fren! I need to tell ya about the REAL OM from hell sometime!
Kramer Krazy handed me one that near drove me over the edge before I finally got'er up and runnin'. I'd write up a thread on it, except I don't even know how to begin to describe what I had to do to it. I will say that it took
three attempts before it all came together, and if it ever needs another extractor...which I pray that it doesn't...it'll be 2-hour job. Whew! I may write it up anyway...as soon as I get caught up with all my run-go-do that
I've been up to my neck in lately.

 

[TxD11]

Hey, Guys. Not to raise a ruckus, but for my edification only: do you really
think when you are in the emotional state that you discribe (adrenalin charged), that your finger will know the difference between 5lb and 2.5lb?
The idea here is to hit your target, or all is for naught. To hit the target,
isn't the 2.5 lb better. Please don't yell. Dave.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ruckus

Howdy Dave...No yellin'.

The point isn't whether your finger will know the difference. The concern is in whether you'll even be aware of the fact that you're about to drop the hammer. When you're under the influence of the adrenalin-charged state
that I call "The Firefight DTs" you don't have the fine motor control that you do under normal circumstances. A trigger that nudges off can cause you to
fire too early...or even unnecessarily.

A case in point...a personal one...happened to me about 3 years ago. I
got cut off and stopped by a belligerent drunk at a railroad crossing not far from my house. Can't figure what it was that I did to make him do that...but he did it. He had me blocked so that I couldn't back out before he got to the car, and he had a length of axe handle in his hand. I was hemmed in and my best bet was to exit the car. He was too close for me to get away from him, and he was too young for me to outrun. I leveled the pistol at his chest and
decided that when he reached the bumper of his truck that was less than 10 feet from me, that I would fire. His friend was yelling that I had a gun, but he didn't seem to hear the warning. I shouted a warning...and he kept coming. This all happened in the span of about 4 seconds, so there wasn't much margin for error. As he approached the line of departure, I started pressure on the trigger. At the point that I had about 4 pounds of pressure on a 5.5-pound trigger, he suddenly stood down and backed away.

If the trigger on that pistol had been 4 pounds instead of what it was, he would have died and I'd have had to live with that...and the trigger might have let off just as he stood down, which would have made it worse. Would I have been justified? Sure. A larger, younger assailant was well within the kill zone of 21 feet and closing the distance with a deadly weapon in his hand. I would have been justified both legally and morally...but a man would been dead, just the same. His children would have been fatherless, and I might have been sued into bankruptcy...At the distance involved, the difference between a 3-pound trigger and even a 10-pound trigger wouldn't have made a whit of difference in hitting the target. I could have closed my eyes and hit him.

A man didn't get shot. We both went home. Everybody won. If I had elected to tune my trigger to match specifications, it would have been a much differnt and more tragic outcome.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tuner's experience graphically illustrated one reason an ultra-light trigger pull is inadvisable on a carry-gun. Another one is mechanical in nature. Browning designed the pistol with expectations it would have a 6 pound trigger pull (give or take a ½ pound). Since the safety lock (or manual safety to some) was designed to lock the sear into engagement with the hammer it was essential that the hammer hooks have sufficient depth to insure that the hammer was really blocked. Lightened trigger pulls often involve lowering the depth of the notch, sometimes well below what Browning intended. This is of little or no consequence on a target gun, or one used exclusively on a shooting range, but it is not a good practice on any pistol that is intended to be used as a weapon.

 

[BluesBear]

I have personally seen on more than a dozen occasions, good officers with over ten years patrol experience who have been in a situation that cut it close suddenly realize that their finger was on the trigger.

Now all of these officers had been ingrained with the rule to keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to shoot. They trained that way, they practiced it and they preached it.

But, when it came right down to the wire their subconscious had kicked in and they were ready to fire. In a couple of cases they were shooting revolvers and the hammer had started to move.


also...


I have a buddy of mine who in 2000 was firing my old Contender with the .44 magnum barrel on it. All of his target shoooting was done black powder duelist style. Meaning that he pointed the muzzle straight up, then slowly lowered the pistol to the target and then fired as the sights lined up.
The old T/C had a measured two pound trigger pull and I told him several times, DO... NOT ... TOUCH... THE... TRIGGER... UNTIL... YOU'RE... READY... TO... SHOOT.
Several times.

Well he loads her up and goes into his stance. Cocks the hammer, points the muzzle up (90º) starts to lower it and at about 50º, you guessed it, his finger unconsciously touches the trigger. Of course within 3.14159 nanoseconds the rear sight touches his forehead about .224" above his right eyebrow.
He then proceeds to lay the gun down on the table and say "Thanks. Don't kick as much as I thought it would."

We just stood there jaws slack and agape and watched him go over to the cooler, grab a Coca-Cola and then go sit in the shade.

To this day he won't even LOOK at a Contender much less touch one.
One of the other guys shooting with us was was so impressed that he traded me a car for that gun.

 

[popeye]

I would take the hammer and sear out and assemble them in their respective positions on the right side of gun using their pins. You can get a good look at sear engagement. To me anything less that 5 lbs. is too risky for a carry gun.

 

[Onmilo]

I agree that 5 pounds is minimum for a carry gun.
I see and correct more problems with "breaks like glass" triggers than just about anything but poor fitting.
Clark Custom is about as good as one shop can be at customizing handguns.
If you can live without the pistol for a time send the gun back and let them retune it.
If not, any local pistolsmith worth his salt can redo or replace the hammer/sear for safer functioning.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Five pounds is plenty light for me - -

My carry Commander trigger holds with the five pound weight load but lets go with five-amd-a-quarter. It has a pretty crisp break, and this is a workable street carry situation. If I decide to shoot someone, I'll live with it - - I just don't want some "range fashionable" 'smith to have decided my sidearm will touch off before the time has arrived.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Bobby Lee]

You can eaisly tell the indoor range and gunshop Rambos from the few that have had to draw a pistol on another human being in defense of their lives.

The "Rambos" don't have a clue what happens when it hits the fan.

If you have ever had to put that front sight on someones chest you would know why you don't want a two lb trigger on your carry gun.

 

[Sean Smith]

3.5lb is usually the low end of what most pistolsmiths will build a 1911 with if it is meant to be a practical weapon, as opposed to a game gun. 1911 triggers can go lower and be mechanically reliable, but it becomes a much trickier business. For me, really light triggers start to get scary for anything but very deliberate target shooting... a good 4.5-4lb trigger job is plenty light for me.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen. I just got off the phone with my pistolsmith and he said he can use the existing trigger and hammer and increase the trigger pull to six pounds. He said that would remove any issues with the hammer following the slide.

Thanx again. I love the 'net.

 

[TxD11]

Very informative discertation. Thanks. In my best non-argumentative voice,
I would like to ask the following: Since we are not police officers, should we
vilolate Mr. Coopers rule #2, and point our weapons at anything we don't
intend to shoot? Should we point the weapon at people and make threats?
I guess the question is: should I only put my front sight on a man's chest
if I am ready to distroy him because I fear for my life and feel I have no other
options, or should I put the front sight on his chest and tell him to be nice?
I guess if I'm only going to point the gun at something I want to destroy, I would want the trigger pull that I am most familiar with. I don't know. What
do you all think?

 

[popeye]

On this...and most well Moderated Gun Forums are members from A to Z. Some are 58 like I, some are 13, it's all allowed. One must learn to sort out the B.S. from the experience/correct info.... Just a thought, not a "flame". The 1911 (or any other firearm) should be kept at the ready (for civilianian carry) pointed in a safe direction,safety on, until all other options are off. Every sane person knows this, as do most THR members.