Question on muzzle loader bore

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davepool

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This is the bore of a used Lyman Deerstalker .54 cal i bought. I dropped a bore light down the barrel after cleaning for the photo. I ran about 50 strokes with JB bore paste, followed by several strokes with a bore brush and saturated patches until they came out clean.
The lands came out with a mirror polish,but the grooves look a little rough, Is this common in this type of muzzle loader? The green bore light makes it look a little worse than it really is. The edges of the lands are sharp and well defined and there is no rust or pitting anywhere along the bore, just this odd contrast between the lands and grooves.
I welcome your opinions.

DSC01221_zpseece765a.jpg
 
Gg it. If the properly sized patches (with the right sized ball) don't come out with holes rubbed through it will be all right. I'd suggest a .535 round ball(pure soft lead) and an Indian head linen .006" thick patch. Try 80 or more grains of FFg and see how it goes. Bore butter or spit patch is fine.
I have resurrected several rough bores with job. Most took several hundred strokes with a tight patch, changed every fifty strokes. You may have to go with a lead lap and valve grinding compound. The grooves look pretty rough. Good luck.
 
I don't think it rusted. when i was scrubbing it there was no oxidation on any of the patches. It's like the tool that cut the rifling left a smooth polished surface on the lands and a rough surface on the grooves.
If it was rusted, wouldn't the lands be as rough as the grooves?
 
I think it's rough machining and wouldn't worry about it. The lands, not the grooves, are key to imparting a spin on the ball.
 
That bore...

is rough as a cob, and it is not from corrosion. There are reamer marks on the lands and the grooves appear to have been gnawed by rats.
The barrel was made that way, and should never have been used in a rifle.
You might try lapping it with the traditional cast lead lap and 180 grit valve grinding compound, but that is about all you can do to make it useable. I'd bet it is a patch eater in its current state.

Good Luck!

PRD1 - mhb - Mike
 
Yep, it shreds the patches pretty bad. Just got back from the range.
Surprisingly, accuracy wasn't as bad as i expected. Used a .535 speer ball and a .015 lubed patch over 100grn of swiss 2f. Only fired 6 shots and all hit an 8" plate at 50 yards. I bought the gun to have fun with( paid 200 bucks for it) and learn the process, so i'm not to concerned about winning matches with it.

I might send the photo to Lyman and see what they say.
 
Play with powder charges from 75 grains to 120 grains in 5 grain increments with your patched round ball to find the load your particular rifle likes best. If you can get decent reliable groups (2 inches or less at 50 yards) then just enjoy the blinkin' thing.

I suspect your gun will prefer charges in the 80 to 85 grain range, but you never know until you experiment.
 
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Yea, i'm not expecting anything to come of it....maybe they'll send me a 10% discount coupon on a powder dipper :D
 
1. Black powder is pretty forgiving of minor pitting and bore flaws.

2. I wouldn't consider that bore to have a major problem.

3. Try a few patches with the white polishing compound used on car finishes. It does have a fine abrasive in it, and it is more aggressive than J&B. (Don't use the red polishing compound, too abrasive)

There are some things that don't make sense in that bore. The rotary scratches seem to be in the grooves as well, and that just doesn't seem right. Those drilling, milling marks should not be evident in the grooves and the grooves milling marks should be the length of the grooves not cross wise.

It is as if somebody was spinning an abrasive brush in the bore to clean it out.
 
The photo is somewhat deceptive. The rotary marks are a bit exaggerated, either from the light or camera, but you're right they are there.
The lines in the grooves primarily run parallel with the bore and like i said the lands are bright and shiny.
I'm pretty new to BP muzzle loaders, so my main reason for asking this question was to find out if this type of rifling was common in some muzzle loaders or just a bad barrel from the factory. I naturally assume that a barrel is a barrel no matter if it's a cartridge gun or muzzle loader.
I have several military surplus rifles and have seen some terrible barrels before, but nothing like this
I have seen guys attach a drill to the cleaning rod and run a bronze brush up and down the bores of centerfire rifles, something i have never considered.

Thanks for everyone's advise and opinion, you all have given me a lot of help.
 
The marks in the grooves...

are of 2 types:

1. The parallel features caused by passing the broach through the bore to form the grooves, and;

2. The rather severe chatter marks caused by that broach being dull and/or insufficiently lubricated.

The circumferential marks which are visible on the lands are due to a dull and/or insufficiently lubricated reamer.

Overall finish in the bore is very poor, and indicates that there is little or no effort to exercise quality control in making these barrels, some of which are good and some of which... look like this example.

PRD1 - mhb - Mike - barrel maker
 
Thanks mike

That makes sense, bad machining, which is what i suspected, but hey, it goes boom and makes a lot of smoke :D


I took the trigger lock assembly apart last weekend, talk about rough machining, you'd think that when using cast parts they would at least smooth out some of the mating surfaces
 
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I'm in the "shoot it and check your patches" camp; just try some different thicknesses, and different lubes. Another thing- I've seem plenty of Lymans with chromed bores; is this one plated? If it is, it could make it really tough to remove the roughness.

Many a rough bore can lived with if you use a fiber wad or a backer patch between the PRB and the powder.
 
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This is a "learning" rifle for me. So in a way i'm glad it has a less than perfect bore. It will give me a chance to try out all of the good advise to see what will improve the accuracy of this beast.

I'm not sure if the bore is chrome plated, unless there's a way to just chrome the lands that i've never heard of.
I sent an email to Lyman with the serial # hoping they can tell me something about it. Overall the rifle appears to have been taken good care of, stock is in good shape, no rusty parts in the lock, no unusual wear on the bluing. I have a sense that it was fired very little and put away.
 
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Dave I'd go with a .530 ball, and 100% cotton pillow ticking that compresses to .012. I'd try 55 grains of 3Fg and work upwards in 5 grain increments until you get optimal accuracy. My personal .54 shoots the best with 70 grains of 3Fg and takes deer out to 100 yards.

LD
 
I'll try that ,thanks. I will be heading out to the range again this weekend. I'll post some targets.

Lyman responded to my email and pretty much reiterated what PRD1 stated in his post. They also said that based on the serial# i provided the rifle was made in 1990, that confirms that this 23 year old rifle was well taken care of and fired very little. They said that the barrel should start to smooth out after a couple hundred rounds, not sure about that but we'll see.
 
Your gun is made by investarms and they also make the rifles sold by cabelas. I have several cabelas guns and at one time made my own bore light and saw the same thing you are seeing. The bores are not super smooth but they shoot just fine. And your light is exaggerating the roughness of the bore. And they may smooth out with use. I just stopped worrying about when I found out I could hit what I wanted to hit.

If I am using more than 70-75grs of powder I always use a firewall patch. Blowing patches almost caused me to give up on BP rifles. I got a book wrote by Sam Fadala and learned how to shoot my gun and read patches. Patches seem to be 90% of the secret to getting a BP rifle to shoot. You stated it shreds patches but I bet those patches are blown, not shredded.

Whats funny is the few CVA/Traditions rifles I have owned had very smooth bores right out of the box. And the one Traditions I still own is a shootin' SOB with a round ball.
 
Based on the info that's been shared, maybe i'm using a bit too much powder, i'll try the smaller charges and see how it goes. BTW what is a firewall patch?
 
davepool said:
This is the bore of a used Lyman Deerstalker .54 cal i bought. I dropped a bore light down the barrel after cleaning for the photo. I ran about 50 strokes with JB bore paste, followed by several strokes with a bore brush and saturated patches until they came out clean.
The lands came out with a mirror polish,but the grooves look a little rough, Is this common in this type of muzzle loader? The green bore light makes it look a little worse than it really is. The edges of the lands are sharp and well defined and there is no rust or pitting anywhere along the bore, just this odd contrast between the lands and grooves.
I welcome your opinions.

DSC01221_zpseece765a.jpg
Click to expand...
Well what you have is definitely a patch ball barrel looks like so as long as it doesn't grab the patch you're gonna be fine in my opinion... that is nothing like what a once shot barrel not cleaned looks like...

Speaking of shooting with over powder wads is a good idea in all guns I'm convinced.... you can cut them out of cardwards or buy them from track of the wolf.
aloha... :cool:
 
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