Question(s) about home defense in an apartment

[Yo Mama]

You know how many times birdshot doesn't kill a small dove? About fifty percent of the time, I have to finish the job after they hit the ground.

 

[Sam1911]

What about a semi-auto .22lr? You'd have a lot of shots available (you may need all of them to really stop an intruder cold)

Do you want to count on being able to place every one into the target's vitals while he's advancing rapidly, dodging, and you're trying to retreat? Hitting the important parts of a violent, mobile, target under those conditions -- ONCE -- is hard enough.

The over-penetration issue is kind of a red herring. Handgun rounds just AREN'T all that great at killing (incapacitating) a human-size creature. To do the job you need them to do, they've got to be able to penetrate enough of the attacker -- at whatever angle he presents, possibly through leather jackets and/or heavy clothing, and probably through an arm and multiple bones -- to get far enough inside to damage imporant structures. If the round can do that, it can also punch through sheetrock, spruce framing lumber, plywood, etc.

If you're counting on your rounds (even .22 LRs!) NOT to penetrate the walls, you're going to be dissappointed. If you're counting on rounds, that are light enough to not penetrate your walls, to penetrate your attacker, you're going to be dissappointed.

The best hope you have of avoiding damage to others is to plan out your lanes of fire and (most importantly) practice being able to make your shots count under the most realistic conditions you can. The most successful backstop you're likely to have is your attacker's center of mass.

-Sam

 

[Deanimator]

Do you live in a really small apt?

I live in a relatively small, crowded apartment with narrow hallways and doorways. Birdshot (which I wouldn't use) has nothing to do with it. NO long gun is appropriate for where I live. An Ithaca Auto-Burgler would probably work quite well, but I haven't got the time, money or inclination to go the NFA route.

 

[Weedy]

Do you want to count on being able to place every one into the target's vitals while he's advancing rapidly, dodging, and you're trying to retreat? Hitting the important parts of a violent, mobile, target under those conditions -- ONCE -- is hard enough.

The over-penetration issue is kind of a red herring. Handgun rounds just AREN'T all that great at killing (incapacitating) a human-size creature. To do the job you need them to do, they've got to be able to penetrate enough of the attacker -- at whatever angle he presents, possibly through leather jackets and/or heavy clothing, and probably through an arm and multiple bones -- to get far enough inside to damage imporant structures. If the round can do that, it can also punch through sheetrock, spruce framing lumber, plywood, etc.

If you're counting on your rounds (even .22 LRs!) NOT to penetrate the walls, you're going to be dissappointed. If you're counting on rounds, that are light enough to not penetrate your walls, to penetrate your attacker, you're going to be dissappointed.

The best hope you have of avoiding damage to others is to plan out your lanes of fire and (most importantly) practice being able to make your shots count under the most realistic conditions you can. The most successful backstop you're likely to have is your attacker's center of mass.

-Sam

I understand all of that, but I'd still rather have a .22 than a baseball bat.

 

[Sam1911]

I understand all of that, but I'd still rather have a .22 than a baseball bat.

Uh, well, sure. Though, if I was going to use a .22, I think I'd keep that baseball bat handy. Might very well expect to need a "Plan B."

-Sam

 

[Guvnor]

Personally I wouldn't want to count on "don't miss" as the only insurance against overpenetration. Im sure not 100% confident of being able to perfectly place all my shots at 3am, after being woken from a deep sleep, and under extreme stress.

My HD weapon of choice is a 20 gauge pump loaded with #6 shot. I dont live in an apartment, but I am in a house with 4 other family members. As far as birdshot effectiveness inside the home, im not going to go there because it always opens a big can of worms. Everyone has different HD needs and concerns depending on their situation. I feel perfectly safe with 5 shells of 1 oz. #6 in the tube, but thats just me.

 

[rmfnla]

We tested this sort of thing a few years back. We build a few test-wall sections and carted them out to a shooting area and let 'em have it.

Unless the shot hit a stud ALL solid rounds went through both sides easily, and most went through multiples (we had four sections).

The largest shot that didn't totally devastate both sides of a section was... #4. Buckshot was as bad as hardball; went right through.

I've kept #4 in my HD Mossberg ever since.

Frangible rounds were not commonly available back then so we were not able to test them; I'd love to see how well they really work.

 

[Sam1911]

The largest shot that didn't totally devastate both sides of a section was... #4. Buckshot was as bad as hardball; went right through.

I've kept #4 in my HD Mossberg ever since.

Did you also carry a bad guy out to the range and make sure the No. 4s would penetrate far enough in HIM?

That would be a much more complete test! I'm pretty sure I don't want to try to defend myself with any projectile that can't make it through a couple of pieces of drywall...

-Sam

 

[nwilliams]

A lot of you are forgetting the point here.

In an apartment situation rounds with effective penetration can also pentrate walls.

Dead or injured neighbor = criminal charges against you, regardless of whether or not you were trying to defend yourself from a home intruder.

So yes birdshot isn't the best choice when it comes to personal defense. However I'd rather sacrifice stopping power over risking the lives of my neighbors.

 

[rmfnla]

Did you also carry a bad guy out to the range and make sure the No. 4s would penetrate far enough in HIM?

That would be a much more complete test! I'm pretty sure I don't want to try to defend myself with any projectile that can't make it through a couple of pieces of drywall...

-Sam

You mean you don't think a hit with #4 at apartment-range would stop a man?

 

[Sam1911]

A lot of you are forgetting the point here.

No. Just calculating the odds and the relative importance of the risks a little differently than you are.

In an apartment situation rounds with effective penetration can also pentrate walls.

Yep. That's physics. I don't care to defend myself with rounds with IN-effective penetration.

Dead or injured neighbor = criminal charges against you, regardless of whether or not you were trying to defend yourself from a home intruder.

Sometimes, yes. A set of risks that exist under any self-defense circumstances.

So yes birdshot isn't the best choice when it comes to personal defense. However I'd rather sacrifice stopping power over risking the lives of my neighbors.

Its a question of the odds. What are the odds that someone will be standing RIGHT in the path of your bullet behind whichever wall happens to be behind you when your attacker presents a shot?

What are the odds that birdshot won't penetrate far enough to disable the meth-head charging down on you?

The safety of my neighbors is important. But, completely eliminating the risks to them (however minute) at the cost of the effectiveness of my defensive capacity, isn't going to happen.

But, everyone sees the odds a little differently.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

You mean you don't think a hit with #4 at apartment-range would stop a man?

Depends. How good was the hit? What was he wearing? What was he holding/carrying? What was his orientation to you?

Buckshot is no guarantee, either. But the odds are better. Remember, #4 only weighs about 20 grains. Lots of them hitting at once is nice, but that doesn't help the penetration all that much.

-Sam

 

[rmfnla]

These are all valid points.

I guess what needs to be clarified is that there is a big difference between #4 and, say, #7-1/2 or #8 in stopping power, especially at the distance in a typical apartment.

I know I wouldn't want to shot with any of them.

 

[Deus Machina]

I, personally, do think #4 may be a decent compromise if you're really worried that you may hit neighbors. Preferably lead shot, not steel. Certainly better than a bat, and probably better than a .22.

It would take a quick thought about the situation, though. BG in a single layer of clothing (not likely this time of year) would very likely be stopped with some luck unless he's--ahem--chemically enhanced. If he's dressed thicker or doesn't stop at the first shot, aim for his head.

At least #4 would have plenty of energy to penetrate a skull.

 

[mgkdrgn]

1) In the event that my apartment is broken into and I shoot the intruder, what are the implications if a round goes through the wall into another apartment?

Your lead, your problem.

2) I have gas heat, what are the chances that shooting an intruder can cause an explosion/fire?

Not great, unless you hit a gas line. If you do, see the answer to #1.

3) I have a Ruger P90 and a Charter .38 Special, would the .38 be able to penetrate through a standard apartment wall?

I don't know that there is such a thing as a "standard" apartment wall. Is it capable of going through several layers of sheet rock? You betcha.

Through a cinderblock "party wall" (firewall). Nope.