Question to LEOs: Shotgun or AR15 for you?

[postalnut25]

I have both in my vehicle. I have the shotgun because it is required, and the rifle because I made the choice to get the extra training and get qualified.

After 11 years in the military and getting a rifle at work, I will take the AR-15 from my rack long before I would ever consider the shotgun

 

[javjacob]

12 gauge buck and slugs might cost more than 223/556 but 1 00buck or slug cartridge will do more damage than 5 223/556 cartridges.
12 gauge is far better in a shootout unless its at 100+ yards then in that case the AR is better. the 223/556 is rather wimpy so I don't understand why the AR gets talked up so much like its the baddest gun ever. guess people just think they are "cool". there are plenty of other semi auto guns I would take over the AR to trust my life to. In close range though you cant beat the 12 gauge.

 

[javjacob]

comparing the AR15 to the 12 gauge is like comparing a semi auto pistol in 22LR to a single action revolver in 357magnum

 

[pezo]

I avoided responding to this thread until now because I am NOT an LEO. But it's too tempting sorry. A bad guy taking a 5.56 to the chest would be devastating to him. Taking a load of buck shot would be devastating plus probably some extra "gore". Ranges being close of course. I keep a pump 12 gauge for defense But I'd give the ar the edge mainly because it can be fired easier one handed if you are down an arm and would theoretically have better precision and of course more range capability. But ar's are way more expensive and the pump shotgun should be a bit more mechanically reliable. Training and dynamics of the fight come into play after that. Neither one of these platforms I'd consider as weak that's time proven not to be true.

 

[ugaarguy]

12 gauge buck and slugs might cost more than 223/556 but 1 00buck or slug cartridge will do more damage than 5 223/556 cartridges.

No, no it wont. You've obviously never seen seen what a commercial load .223 Rem ballistic tip or JSP will do to a 150 to 200 lb deer. You've also never read any of Dr. Martin Fackler's studies, nor seen any of his illustrations of common tissue damage caused by common small arms wounds.

12 gauge is far better in a shootout unless its at 100+ yards then in that case the AR is better. the 223/556 is rather wimpy...

Wrong once again. Please see the stickies in the rifle forum to learn more about rifle terminal ballistics, and how light construction, high velocity bullets offer the least risk of over penetration in homes / apartments / urban areas.

... so I don't understand why the AR gets talked up so much like its the baddest gun ever. guess people just think they are "cool".

Some people have a firm grasp of terminal ballistics. Some have years (or more) of training on AR pattern rifles provided by Uncle Sugar. Some like low recoil, fast follow up shots, and greater precision while maintaining those excellent terminal ballistics.

there are plenty of other semi auto guns I would take over the AR to trust my life to. In close range though you cant beat the 12 gauge.

A 12 gauge shotgun is an excellent close range weapon. However, an AR-15, AK-74, Ruger Mini-14, or (insert favorite intermediate cartridge semi-auto rifle here) are only slightly less effective than, if not just as effective as, a 12 gauge shotgun, and the rifles are far more versatile. The rifle doesn't have to be an AR-15.

As for LEO use, as many have noted, department policy and what's issued (or not) are going to be far bigger factors than which weapon is actually better.

 

[javjacob]

I actually wouldn't mind having a ruger mini14 ranch rifle as I hate plastic guns so the wood stock of the ranch rifle is nice and it doesn't have the tacticool garbage. only problem is they are expensive! $950 ... do I want one? heck yeah I do but at that price maybe not. I'll stick with my $250 Mossberg 500 for any home defense situation.
12 gauge still wins IMO... just saying I don't see they hype behind the AR as not everybody can fork over $1000 for a gun.

 

[fastbolt]

The shotgun is harder to shoot for most people; has less capacity; is harder & slower to load; has less range and won't defeat the type of body armor normally worn by many cops.

That said, while the patrol rifle has definite advantages in specific situations ... if I were to return to duty and were again driving around in my unmarked plainclothes car, and could only choose one long gun, it would again be a pump shotgun. In a marked patrol car I'd carry both, and choose either according to the situation.

Choosing to use either weapon is a tactical consideration based upon situational context. There were very specific reasons agencies started adopting patrol rifles/carbines, and creating policies for their employment and use. Those reasons didn't exactly negate the practicality and usefulness of the shotgun in police work in the appropriate situations.

Then again, there have always been a fair number of cops who have been unable (for whatever reason) to accurately & effectively shoot shotguns loaded with buckshot & slugs. They've never liked them.

 

[Mitlov]

That was basically my reason for creating this thread. I've been comfortable with just sticking with 12ga., but the exploding popularity of the AR15 makes me wonder if I'm behind the times and should move up to something more capable. I'd like to, but the price of doing so is just overwhelming. I could buy one, but then I'd be afraid of something happening to it, and not want to shoot much because of the price of the ammo, and then I see LEOs talking about how they prefer 12ga. for the most part (as do the majority of people responding here) and it gets me to wondering if the general firearm-owning populace is a little deceived about what is better.

From what I've read here so far, I've become slightly more comfortable with sticking with 12ga.

I wouldn't ever want to rely on a gun that I personally didn't shoot regularly, regardless if it's a better solution for someone else who has different circumstances (i.e., a LEO where their agency helped finance their practice with their duty weapons). With a twelve-gauge, you can always take it to a skeet range or even get a portable clay thrower and get very competent with the gun shooting $6/box target loads. Buckshot is expensive but cheap birdshot sure isn't. With an AR-15, there's not really the option for loading super-cheap ammo into the gun to build proficiency.

 

[Warp]

1 00buck or slug cartridge will do more damage than 5 223/556 cartridges.

javjacob: You are very incorrect.

Wait, let me rephrase...you are so wrong it's epic.

 

[LeonCarr]

Both.

One 870P loaded with Federal Flitecontrol 00, One PSA AR loaded with 64 Grain Winchester Ranger Soft Points.

I also carry a 25 round bandolier with 12 Flitecontrol 00 and 12 Federal TruBall Slugs, and an extra 30 round magazine loaded with M193 55 Grain FMJs.

Going inside a house/Warrant Service, the shotgun. Manhunt/Perimeter/Bad Guy with Long Gun, the AR.

I am much more comfortable with the shotgun. The AR is a great weapons system with lots of versatility, but I like the shotgun.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[12Pump]

I wouldn't ever want to rely on a gun that I personally didn't shoot regularly, regardless if it's a better solution for someone else who has different circumstances (i.e., a LEO where their agency helped finance their practice with their duty weapons).

Ah, yes! This is another reason to ask from an LEO's perspective. Civilians have to take cost into consideration, but LEOs don't so much. With that said, LEO's (at least the majority of them) still seem to like the 12ga shotgun better. I could see the common man leaning that way because of the big cost difference, but when LEOs out in the field who don't have to worry about the cost of the gun or training still choose 12ga., that's a real eye opener! Civilians should take note of this.

 

[gunnutery]

I had plenty of room in the car for one of each. Pick the proper tool for the task at hand.

This is the best option. Each gun excells at what they're made for. I've long advocated to my agencies for getting rifles AND getting them in the cars. Ive also been trying to get some non-qualification training involving longer range shooting with pistol, shotgun and rifle. The qualification standards put set limitations on range that IMO don't really even touch the actual limits of the gun's capabilities.

I work in a pretty rural area, so I'm glad to have both shotgun and rifle in the car. As much as I've advocated for the rifles, I'd still probably go for the shotgun for close quarter issues.

 

[Warp]

Ah, yes! This is another reason to ask from an LEO's perspective. Civilians have to take cost into consideration, but LEOs don't so much. With that said, LEO's (at least the majority of them) still seem to like the 12ga shotgun better. I could see the common man leaning that way because of the big cost difference, but when LEOs out in the field who don't have to worry about the cost of the gun or training still choose 12ga., that's a real eye opener! Civilians should take note of this.

Many LEOs are not gun people.

Many LEOs are not given the option of having a rifle.

Many LEOs have no significant experience with or training on a rifle, and some may not have ever even shot one before.

Some LEOs who do have the option of having a rifle have to buy it themselves.

The shotgun is so common in law enforcement because it is inexpensive, it doesn't look as "scary" to some people, it is inexpensive, and it has institutional momentum.

What do SWAT teams arm themselves with? It isn't shotguns.

What do tactical teams, shooter response teams, etc, arm themselves with? It isn't shotguns.

Private citizens should take note of this.

 

[12Pump]

Many LEOs are not gun people.

Many LEOs are not given the option of having a rifle.

Many LEOs have no significant experience with or training on a rifle, and some may not have ever even shot one before.

Some LEOs who do have the option of having a rifle have to buy it themselves.

But the question was to LEOs as to what they preferred, not what they are mandated to have.

As for maybe not being "gun people" or not having as much experience, I would think those things would cause more of them to want AR's instead of shotguns. If I wasn't a gun person, I'd want something that was light recoiling, and only required pulling the trigger for each shot rather than having to pump the forearm before each shot, since that is simpler. Yet the majority of LEOs here are saying they prefer shotguns.

Also to address the idea of many LEOs not being "gun people", you have to take into consideration the fact that all the responses being given to this thread are from people who are visiting a firearms forum. I believe the majority of them are at least somewhat into guns.

 

[Warp]

But the question was to LEOs as to what they preferred, not what they are mandated to have.

As for maybe not being "gun people" or not having as much experience, I would think those things would cause more of them to want AR's instead of shotguns. If I wasn't a gun person, I'd want something that was light recoiling, and only required pulling the trigger for each shot rather than having to pump the forearm before each shot, since that is simpler. Yet the majority of LEOs here are saying they prefer shotguns.

Also to address the idea of many LEOs not being "gun people", you have to take into consideration the fact that all the responses being given to this thread are from people who are visiting a firearms forum. I believe the majority of them are at least somewhat into guns.

And a significant factor in how somebody arrives at a preference is their relevant experience.

It is unlikely an officer with zero experience with or training on a rifle is going to prefer it over a shotgun that they have training and experience with.

I don't know where you are getting that the majority of LEO's prefer shotguns, but it isn't from THR, because THR doesn't do LEO firearms or tactics or any of that.

Again, if you really want to look at what the police believe to be more effective, look at what SWAT and response type teams use.

It isn't shotguns.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

In my time as a LEO ,I was lucky enough to be able to carry what I wanted. Both a shotgun and AR rode with me.

The shotgun went with me into closed areas such as houses or commercial buildings. Open areas brought out the AR-15 rifle not carbine. Later in my career I was on a warrant entry team and carried a short barreled pump shotgun with a integral flashlight built into the slide . This shotgun was stocked with a full stock and AR style pistol-grip making it easier to control one or two handed.

We had the option of MP-5s But I always preferred a scattergun for doing interior searches.

 

[Warp]

In my time as a LEO ,I was lucky enough to be able to carry what I wanted. Both a shotgun and AR rode with me.

The shotgun went with me into closed areas such as houses or commercial buildings. Open areas brought out the AR-15 rifle not carbine. Later in my career I was on a warrant entry team and carried a short barreled pump shotgun with a integral flashlight built into the slide . This shotgun was stocked with a full stock and AR style pistol-grip making it easier to control one or two handed.

We had the option of MP-5s But I always preferred a scattergun for doing interior searches.

I'd take a shotgun over a pistol cartridge, too.

What were the overall lengths of the AR vs the shotgun? Why did you prefer the shotgun for closed areas?

 

[12Pump]

I don't know where you are getting that the majority of LEO's prefer shotguns, but it isn't from THR, because THR doesn't do LEO firearms or tactics or any of that.

It actually is from THR, because that's the name of this message board which this thread is located in where I'm getting exactly those answers.

 

[Warp]

It actually is from THR, because that's the name of this message board which this thread is located in where I'm getting exactly those answers.

I question the validity of informal responses on a topic that we aren't even supposed to be talking about. Maybe if you started a poll with a specific question, with results of who voted for what visible, with the request that ONLY LEO's vote in it, along with posting answers to relevant questions.

Regardless, I already gave the reasons for why officers are often inclined to choose a shotgun even if/though it isn't the more effective option.

Edit: For example, I would ask them to post what formal training they had on each firearm type, what experience(s) they had on each type, if they had to undergo different processes for carrying either one on duty, if they had the firearm provided or if they had to pay for it, ask for an explanation of why they chose/prefer what they do, etc.

The why is far more important than the preference itself.

 

[BSA1]

Ditto comments in Post 26.

Hands down the shotgun is the most intimidating of the pair which should be no small consideration.

Personally for me my goal in a confrontation is for it to end without me getting hurt.

If it ends without the aggressor of getting hurt so much the better.

In this instance our anti-gun "friends" in the movie and TV business help us as it is common to see folks hit by shotgun blast fly halfway across a room or several feet backwards outdoors.

If you want to double the shotgun INTIMIDATiON value use a short barrel double barrel 12ga.

In my department we had some rough bars. After one particularly rough fight between us and a bunch of drunk patrons the Chief updated some of our gear and also clamped down on the are threatening to close them. I started carrying my personal sawed off double barrel shotgun when we got calls to the bars. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the sight of officer wearing a riot helmet while holding that side x side drew a lot of attention.

And you can fire two rounds from some s x s at the same time.

 

[JERRY]

Sig m400.

shotgun is next to useless in comparison for an active shooter at a school.

that said I have both, so I can pick the right gun for the right incident. but the AR is first choice. stepping it down to a shotgun is easier than trying to step it up to an AR when you actually have to fire rounds.

 

[Sam1911]

Officers I've trained with shared that in the urban areas they were from, many officers -- they would say almost all -- were very uncomfortable shooting "those (darned) cannons," meaning the 870s owned by their departments. They clamed that some officers literally REFUSED to even qualify with them.

The result of which was that the 870s were now stored away in arms rooms and each patrol car now had an AR-15 in the trunk.

Unfortunately those officers got little or no training on those either, and the rifles were not theirs, but assigned to whatever car they got from the motor pool that morning. Not terribly confidence inspiring.

Hopefully that's not the common situation nationwide, but it apparently is in some northeast metro areas.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Warp, in response to you questions......I started my LE career in the 70's and retired in 2002. Back at that point of time it was wheelguns and scatterguns. Lots of LE were gun guys back then and grew up as hunters. They knew their way around a shotgun and were fairly proficient.
As vets came home from the war and joined the ranks of LE, many came from urban areas and never had fired shotguns and were wary of the mule kick that they were lead to believe it had. The ones who did fire them weren't very accurate most of the time, where the ones who were hunters knew the patterns and ranges of their shotguns and were experienced in wing shooting.....and how slugs and buckshot did it's job. Most of the city guys never mastered the scattergun.


As the years passed due to vicarious liability the powers to be didn't want officers using shotguns and moved towards semi-auto AR rifles( since they didn't kick as hard and were easier to train with) ,Colt even came out with a 9mm AR.
Shotguns found their way out of favor except for specialty units like stake-out and swat.

As far as lengths the AR-15 was about 39" whereas the shotgun I carried was just a bit over 30".....Having hunted on a regular basis with a shotgun since I was 10 years old ,I just felt more confident with a shotgun at closer ranges........but I was no slouch with the AR either........

 

[Mitlov]

Again, if you really want to look at what the police believe to be more effective, look at what SWAT and response type teams use.

It isn't shotguns.

While watching the Boston bomber manhunt (through news coverage; I wasn't there personally), I saw a mix of AR-15s and shotguns. More of the former than the latter among the SWAT/federal agents/etc, but there were definitely both.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...q=boston+manhunt+officers&sc=0-15&sp=-1&sk=#a

One example I found in a radio station's news story about the manhunt:

 

[JERRY]

Unfortunately those officers got little or no training on those either, and the rifles were not theirs, but assigned to whatever car they got from the motor pool that morning. Not terribly confidence inspiring.

that's us. little training, rifle stays in car, car not assigned to officer. luck of the draw on what you get. but considering what we had to do to get them its better than before, which was nothing.