Questions about action lengths: long action, short action, etc.

[BringHomeTheBacon]

1. Why is this important to know for casual shooters or hunters?
2. Does this action length only pertain to centerfire bolt-action rifles? Don't rimfire rifles have action lengths? What about handguns and shotguns? What about auto rifles, pump rifles and lever jobs?

 

[CapnMac]

1. Why is this important to know for casual shooters or hunters?
2. Does this action length only pertain to centerfire bolt-action rifles? Don't rimfire rifles have action lengths? What about handguns and shotguns? What about auto rifles, pump rifles and lever jobs?

1. It's not hugely important for casual shooters--but it can be pertinent. Much like bed length in a pickup truck is not important until it is.
Mostly it's about knowing what "what if" questions apply. Like how you really can't get a .243 into an AR-15 action. But you can get a 6arc (which is practically a short 243) in an AR-15 action. Or, that .243 will fit in an AR-10 action easily. And, for various bolt actions that action length matters for what calibers you could use, and matter very much for scope mounting, for base selection.

2. Generally yes. Rimfire weapons--given that virtually all of those are .22LR based--only need the one "length" of action. (There are those older firearms that are chambers for .22short or the like.)
Shotguns pretty much only need an "action" as long as a shotgun shell--and those are very standardized lengths, the exception being the really short shot shells.
In pistols, the "action length" is much more limited. The firearm has to fit the hand, which imposes a bunch of limits on things. Now, there are some "frame sizes" which will limit things. So, you can get a 9x19 into a 40sw, but not always vice versa. And you can generally fit 9x17 into a 9x19 pistol.

 

[Jim Watson]

The main Need To Know for consumers is if you want to CHANGE something.
"Can I rebarrel my A to B?"

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Action length seems to be only mentioned in literature (gun writing) regarding CF bolt-action rifles and/or their respective cartridges. In the army, I was never trained as to whether my M16 was a long or short action. The action length thing could be the reason why so many rifle models are offered in a limited number of calibers. But some rifle models are listed in offerings of both "long action" and "short action" cartridges. Is the overall design of a particular rifle model different between long-action and short-action chamberings? My favorite bolt-action rifle of all time is the Swedish-made Husqvarna Model 3000 Crown Grade made from 1952-1972 with a controlled-feed rotary extractor Mauser 98 action. This was offered in only three American classic deer hunting calibers: .270, .308 and .30-06. My grandfather owned one in .308., the lone short-action of the threesome. .308 is probably the handiest and most efficient deer caliber of all time. Cheap ammo aplenty and rifles chambered in it are available everywhere. Try to find a popular hunting rifle line NOT available in .308. But I digress. Is the weight and dimensions of this rifle going to be significantly different across these calibers? Is it more expensive to make a particular rifle line in various long and short action chamberings for the same rifle model?

 

[jmr40]

Why is this important to know for casual shooters or hunters?

Usually the action length is matched to the cartridge you choose and you don't have any choice. Some companies (Tikka for example) only use one action length. But knowing WHY might be good to know.

In regard to centerfire bolt guns, every manufacturer is different. There are a lot of different action lengths. There are probably at least 5 or 6 different lengths when you start looking at various manufacturers. With some overlap. The biggest difference is having a magazine box and ejection port long enough to work with the cartridge you're using.

Most common cartridges prior to the 1950's were in some version of a long action, although the exact length varied by manufacturer. The old school magnums needed an even longer magnum action. But today magnum actions are very rare with only a couple of European companies still making them. Most of the modern magnums were designed to work in a traditional long action. Even old school magnums like the 300H&H and 375 H&H are used in long actions that have been modified to work with them.

The 1st short action cartridges like 308, 300 Savage, 243, 257 Roberts etc. were originally used in long action rifles. Short action rifles were developed for a few reasons. The rifles can be about 1/2" shorter and everything else equal about 1/4 lb lighter. In theory a short action is stiffer and more accurate, and an argument can be made that the action can be manipulated faster since there is about 1" total less bolt movement. While theoretically true the biggest real-world difference is a slightly more compact, lighter rifle.

But there are some advantages to using short action cartridges in long action rifles. With some modern bullets the cartridges won't fit in a short action mag box because the bullets are too long. And they can be difficult to load in the smaller ejection port.

Most sporting semi-autos and pumps are traditional long action regardless of the cartridge.

AR15's and other semi's designed for the 223 are designed specifically for that cartridge. The AR10 platform is designed for 308 based cartridges, and the WW-2 Garand around the 30-06

Lever guns are generally available in 2 action lengths. Most common are the ones designed for 30-30 length cartridges. Then there are pistol cartridge lengths.

Repeating shotguns GENERALLY only use one action length. But it varies by manufacturer. Benelli uses an action that is a bit longer than the others. Some that are chambered for 3 1/2" shells use the same action length, but cut a bigger hole for the ejection port.

 

[3850remhep]

Action Length pertains typically to Center Fire Cartridges, .22LR rimfire will only be a universal length, unless .22 Rimfire Magnum is considered as well.

I'll restate what seems to already been said, only worded a bit different ;

Absolutely, there are long and short action semi's, i.e., the AR-10's which accommodate longer cartridges than the AR-15. The .30 caliber .308 will function in the AR-10 but not the AR-15, However the longer .30-06 will not function in the AR-10, you'll typically need a Garand if you want a semi .30-06. For a .30 cal in the AR-15, the 300 Black Out is the usual consideration.

With respect to Center Fire, grab a '03 Springfield or even a Remy Mdl 700 in .30-06 and rack the bolt a couple times. Then do the same with a Remy Model Seven in .308. The difference will be understood immediately. BTW, The Model Seven is even a bit shorter than the standard Remy 700 Short Action.

I will only own A Remy Mdl Seven for a bolt action, That is MY PREFERENCE, . . . YMMV.

Likewise, I enjoy my .22LR single shot, bolt action, Kimber Mdl 82 Government target rifle, a very short, intuitive stroke.

 

[Stevel]

It's the firearm version of 6 cylinder vs 8 cylinder engine. Both get the job done. The 8 is slightly heavier and uses more fuel. Like .308 vs 30-06; for all practical purposes they are the same. One uses a little more powder and the action weighs a few ounces more.

 

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Some guys don't like the Benelli Nova and Super Nova line of pump shotguns because of a long action which might be balky (jamming) when cycling is done in a hurry.

The tooling for the Savage 99 was expensive so this might be one reason for only short-action caliber offerings. Another reason might be that this special lever action design might not handle the potent long-action cartridges. This rifle is chiefly an American woods gun anyway. No need for robust rounds at closer ranges.

 

[Beck]

In a nutshell... action length is based on cartridge length. So you'll see terms like "Mini Mauser" and "Micro Mauser" for bolt rifles chambered for shorter cartridges while keeping the basic Mauser design.

For example, the CZ 527 is a Mini Mauser design because it's chambered for short cartridges like .223 and 7.62x39, among others. No need for a full length bolt to accommodate larger cartridges like the 7.92x57 in something like the Gewehr 98.

Semi-autos... same story as others have pointed out. Previous posters have explained it nicely in more detail.

~Beck

 

[3850remhep]

The Model Seven is even a bit shorter than the standard Remy 700 Short Action.

I will only own A Remy Mdl Seven for a bolt action, That is MY PREFERENCE, . . . YMMV.

Likewise, I enjoy my .22LR single shot, bolt action, Kimber Mdl 82 Government target rifle, a very short, intuitive stroke.

WOW, talk about a brain fart!

I've been a bit preoccupied lately with getting my Rem Mdl Seven rebarrelled that I completely forgot the Bergara B-14 that came to me last fall, in the same 6.5 Creedmoor that is to be the new barrel for the Mdl Seven. So, it seems I have two Bolt action centerfire rifles.

My Bergara is likewise a short action.

Now I'm wondering what other important things am I forgetting . . . .

 

[Barbaroja]

1. Why is this important to know for casual shooters or hunters?
2. Does this action length only pertain to centerfire bolt-action rifles? Don't rimfire rifles have action lengths? What about handguns and shotguns? What about auto rifles, pump rifles and lever jobs?

For someone like yourself, so Interested in the efficacy of various chamberings, it’s something to learn to help you better understand why certain cartridges are developed and why they are chambered in certain guns. example being the savage 99s you hold so dear had a short action, this is the reason it was never available in 30-06 based cartridges like the .270 you seem so fond of.

 

[Slamfire]

I remember when macpherson struts were being advertised as a quality attribute. They were for the assembly line, made assembly of the suspension faster, but the things require spring compressors and a re alignment to change. I liked the old, external shock absorber.

Similarly, what we read in print is advertising, and short action bolt guns (that is 308 length) are just another difference hyped into an advantage.

short action M70





long action pre 64 M70





not a lick of difference of accuracy on target. I have not seen an analysis for conventional actions showing that short actions are stiffer than long. Or that it makes a difference on target, such as a long action M70 or M700 and a short action M70 or M700. Now if the sidewalls are thicker, it makes a difference.











Un necessary length is un necessary. One reason the K31 action was developed.

K1911





K31





It is easy to see the longer bolt required a longer receiver. That added weight and reduced barrel length for the same OAL of the rifle.

I shot out two barrels in this 30-06 Mauser in NRA Highpower competition. It is a long action.



The primary problem I had with the long action was I had to move more, in rapid fire, to get out of the way of the bolt. The long action is about 1/2" longer than a short action. When I finally scoped the bugger, I added a big chunk of wood from a pallet (nail holes included) and got my face away from that scope.



Lost that Cloward handstop for about a year, that scared me. James Cloward was a 1960's Highpower champ and 1000 yard winner, and when he died, Cloward handstops were no longer available.

For a military rifle, a shorter action is desirable. A good example is the M1 Garand, used the 30-06. When the 30-06 was developed, it had an air space. That was not a huge problem in 1903 with a bolt rifle, but when full auto and semi auto mechanisms came into being, that extra half inch added weight to the cartridges and the guns. And length limits cyclic rate, with all that mass moving in thousandths of a second.



So, post WW2, the Army developed a cartridge, the 7.62 NATO, which equaled the 30-06 performance, but was a half inch shorter.

 

[d2wing]

Action length seems to be only mentioned in literature (gun writing) regarding CF bolt-action rifles and/or their respective cartridges. In the army, I was never trained as to whether my M16 was a long or short action. The action length thing could be the reason why so many rifle models are offered in a limited number of calibers. But some rifle models are listed in offerings of both "long action" and "short action" cartridges. Is the overall design of a particular rifle model different between long-action and short-action chamberings? My favorite bolt-action rifle of all time is the Swedish-made Husqvarna Model 3000 Crown Grade made from 1952-1972 with a controlled-feed rotary extractor Mauser 98 action. This was offered in only three American classic deer hunting calibers: .270, .308 and .30-06. My grandfather owned one in .308., the lone short-action of the threesome. .308 is probably the handiest and most efficient deer caliber of all time. Cheap ammo aplenty and rifles chambered in it are available everywhere. Try to find a popular hunting rifle line NOT available in .308. But I digress. Is the weight and dimensions of this rifle going to be significantly different across these calibers? Is it more expensive to make a particular rifle line in various long and short action chamberings for the same rifle model?

The Amy didn't tell you because the M-16 is neither and there is no need to tell you something irrelevant. Many rifles use the same action for both long and short and only the magazine is different. The Remington 700 came in both lengths and it is the standard action or it's clones for target shooting. It doesn't matter to most gun owners. Your comment about Nova shotguns is a bit odd since most shotguns have the same action for shells of any length.

 

[Olympus]

Just stop posting dude…

 

[entropy]

Short action- .308

Long action- .300 Win. Mag.

Very long action-. .50 BMG

Easy peasy.

 

[CapnMac]

In handguns, revolvers have a fixed "action length" based on the length of their cylinders.
A .38spl is, typically, too short for .375mag, despite using the same bore, and forcing cone (mostly).
But. a .357mag cylinder is like to fit almost all rimmed "38" ammo (that can be a minefield, in all fairness).

Probably a better example is the .237mag, which will chamber (generally) nearly every rimmed .32 out there.

 

[entropy]

Aixelsyd is dyslexia spelled backwards.

 

[herrwalther]

Long story short (pun fully intended), action length doesn't matter much if you plan to keep a rifle the same chambering. If you buy a 308 Win and want to have it converted to something else, it has to be something with a similar action length. To work with the barrel, magazine etc etc. Gun writers put the information in for shooters who like to tinker. Or for ones that like to know.

All rimfires are essentially built off either a 22LR or 22Magnum in terms of length. With shotguns and handguns, it matters even less.

 

[ACES&8S]

Don't buy a short scope for a long action rifle.