Questions about BP in .45ACP

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berkbw

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Ok.. I'll wait for the laughter to settle down.

I would like to TRY some BP loads in .45ACP (for a 1911), I think it might be distracting to the Bad Guy to hear the BOOM and see the fireball, instead of seeing me. In SD and HD, I see most instances needing to be cured by a .45 happening at night or reduced light. At these distances and timings required, I never aim by sight, am less likely to "flash blindness".

Of course, I'd like the most damaging result, but even 900fps w/200/230 gr is OK. The issues are legion. BP requires no space between powder and slug.. Can I fill the brass to the bottom of the bullet? If compression upon insertion of the slug is a player, are there any standards here? IF the available room exceeds the proper powder load, should I add corn meal ot top? - and if so, which grind, or how might I test which might be best -

The .45ACP headspaces on the rim. Overall round length is very important because these animals are picky about what they eat..

From what I've read, you can't blow one up using BP. And extra burning powder going downrange is, of course, a plus.

Too long on this

b-
 
I don't know if BP will cycle a semiauto like the 1911 or not. But I know something; the fouling will gum up the mechanism a LOT quicker than regular modern powder will.
 
I am none to sure how this would go over in a court of law... Some times courts like the same ammo cops use in the locality.. Anything else gets you demonized in some places.

Since I have never used BP in any of my .45's I can't say. I think it will run the gun depending on what the gun is. My old Remington Rand has a light recoil spring and my kimber has a dual spring set up rate about 22 pounds and can be somewhat difficult for sweaty hands to cycle.

So while my guess is the Rand would run that kimber might not.
 
Well, since my BAD gun is a .460 Rowland - - I don't think that the small stuff applies.

So - you're telling me that a BP 1911 is more lethal than the normal???

arrgh
 
I am not understanding, if the last post was aimed my way. If it was, I am saying a court of law is a strange place to talk about why a reload is used in a gun when common police type ammo is what cops use.

If you loaded down to a slug made of a cottom ball that moved 35 feet per second and wound up in court over it, the jury would have a heck of alot of strange questions and the DA would have yer hide tacked to wall in a lot of courts..

Courts of law like what is commonly used as for one reason or another it makes more sence to them.

The first sentace isn't anything I can even understand. I have no clue what that means.
 
macmac

don't worry about it, or me

I/we have civil law pretty much covered. If I were to have a question about law as interpreted and enforced, I would not ask here. If you can not address the original post - haunt somewhere else.
 
.45 Acp

Hey there:
I guess I would have to ask WHY?
That BP is going to get into every seam in that gun and will require total tear down from firing even one round. You May not see a lot of anything after firing, so the self defence thing goes out the window. There are plenty of powders that can create flash if thats what you are after. Not sure how the power will rate. But I'm pretty sure she will gum up fast.
I have a .45 ACP in a colt that I use for competetive shooting and would rather use it for CCW. But because of all the mods on it a Bad guys lawyer would probably have a hay day with me in a court room. Not to mention the 200 gr, semi wad cutters at 900 plus FPS. My carry gun is all factory with no mods and factory ammo and works very well.
If you are just out to experiment , Have fun. I like my 1911s waty too much for that. I love BP and BP guns. But must say not as much as you do.:)
My 3" Kimber has an impressive flash as it is.
 
AW!! come on guys! READ my post, eh? I HAVE put a LOT of BP balls downrange (and cleaned afterward), I have run 6k .45ACP downrange.. Gimme a break, eh? The "Why" is in the post. I CAN work it all out myself, I was just "hoping" that someone here on this humungeouslly populated board/forums might have had prior experience.

Except for Tuners posts, I'm thing that THR is a waste for me.

Thank you for your participation.

b-
 
No really.

Hey there:
No one here is trying to get under your skin. I have fire over 150,000 rounds thru the same gun. .45acp but no BP loads ever went thru it. When you mention things about what kind of results you are looking for such as flash and bang toward bad guys, you more then likely will get some responses.
Really bad guys don't care much about flash and bang. They are really bad Guys. And may have some of their own. At that point in the game We would rather have a modern gun with a modern load made just for that particular problem. If that were not the case we should all carry BP revolvers for self Defense. Seems like not a good idea.
So I guess if you open a can of worms be ready to fish. As stated above no one was trying to offend you or your question. My last post said it well. If you are experimenting , Have fun. No one I know shoots BP thru their .45 ACPs. I'm sure if you ask long enough you will find that special one that has.
I also feel that MacMac gave you a fair answer.
 
There is not enough case capacity in a .45 ACP to get a decent charge of BP to fit, along with a bullet. It has always been loaded with a fairly small charge of smokeless powder.

That is the primary reason nobody has done it, or knows much about it.
It won't work because the case is too small for black powder.

Now, if that answer offended you further, too bad!

1224.jpg
rcmodel
 
Ray Ordorica once loaded some .45 ACP with black. As I remember without digging out the article, a case full, compressed under a hard lubed bullet functioned the action but coked up quickly due to lack of lube.
A lube wad under the bullet kept it clean enough to work but stole so much powder space as to not cycle the slide.

I think if you had a bullet lubed with SPG and a compressed load of a clean powder like Swiss, it might go for a while.
 
I think it would be foolish to try to run BP through a 1911. Guns are designed and built on the round they are going to shoot. The 1911 certainly was not built with the thought of using black powder. If you want to use black powder rounds I would suggest a revolver chambered in .45LC, which can be used with BP, better yet a percussion revolver that was designed for black powder use and a .454 piece of lead.

I seriously doubt anyone who pushes you to the point where legally you are in imminent fear for yours or a loved ones life is going to be distracted by a black powder loaded round coming out of your auto loader.

And as a spacer in your .45ACP round try cream of wheat.

Geez and to add, don't post here and then get pissy when people comment on your post.
 
OK... whatever. at the normal SD/HD firing distance, it really doesn't matter how accurate one is, POINT - SHOOT .I welcome any free advantage that is offered . If I can scare the crap out of the BG, I WILL win.

I have a .460 Rowland, a .45 Super, and a couple of .45 ACPs. Unless the BGs are a bit away, like in the middle of the street with full autos, the charge won't matter on a short shot..

BTW, cleaning is not an issue - I don't expect to need it often, or ever,

Best to the forum and best to you.
 
rcmodel -
why the tone of that post?

I have only enjoyed yours [in the past]

have I managed to pissoff the rest of the rational world?

Ignoring many others, I thought that you were a tad wild, but most often right.

Seemingly, it seems to be time to exit this place. You can still hammer me on m1911.org/forums.
 
I remember a post about a guy who loaded up a couple hundred rounds of .45 ACP and fired 'em off out of a Thompson submachine gun with a fifty round drum. Lottsa smoke, sparks and noise but no real functional problems. Clean-up was a real b*tch however. He had left the petroleum based lube in the Tommy gun and it all turned into cruddy tar from the BP !

Moral of the story; remember to remove the petroleum based lube from ANY firearm before using black powder. I see no reason a 1911 won't run on .45 ACP loads full of FFF black powder if lubed with Ballistol. Ballistics should be close to .45 Schofield or British .450 bulldog loads. If your 1911 will run on "target" mid-range loads the BP cartridges should run the action just fine.
I'd guess with "big-lube" bullets you could get 20-25 rounds off before things got too cruddy to function...

Slim
 
The major problem here is case capacity. A meaningful charge of black powder requires more capacity then the .45 ACP has. Yes, I once tried FFFg in a .45 USGI pistol. Yes, it did cycle the action, at least for the 15 rounds I put through it. As might be expected, the recoil was very mild, but so was the downrange performance. I think I was getting about 600 FPS, and maybe less. If you've ever fired an 1860 Army Colt, loaded with a powder charge, felt wad, and a bullet rather then a ball you'd know what I mean.

Oh, and if you try it, don't reload the cases. the black powder fouling can make the brass brittle.
 
I hate to disagree with Old Fuff, really I do...

As for getting much "oomph" out of the .45 ACP case with FFFg, you're gonna be on the slow side. Make sure you don't have petroleum-based bullet lube, too - otherwise cleanup will be an absolute beeyotch.

I've done it, in both my .45 ACP 5" 1911, and more often in my 3" S&W 696 in .44 Special. It worked better in the latter, (actually quite fun, albeit not at an indoor firing range) but in a pinch, were Armageddon to happen, one could revert to BP .45 ACP reduced-velocity loads for a short while before cleaning.

As for reloading BP-fired brass, I'm somewhat surprised at Old Fuff's statement above.

Myself and many other long-time BPCR shooters reload brass cartridges untold number of times, with nary a corroded or ruptured case. The trick is to drop the fired brass into soapy H20 immediately after shooting, then tumble like normal once they've been rinsed clean. My .45-70 brass probably has on the order of a dozen BP loadings already, and no signs of letting go. Same goes for my .44 Special brass...

No harm in playing with the idea, as long as you know you'll have to detail-clean the autoloading .45 ACP - BP fouling gets everywhere. You won't overstress the gun at those pressures, but your sights may not point to where the bullet goes at that low a velocity. A powder compression die, like the one I use for my Sharps rifle, might help in that respect.
 
YOU DARE DISAGREE WITH THE OLD FUFF!!!

The firing squad is being assembled.... :D

Anyway, I know if your fired brass is quickly washed and the fouling removed you can reload it. But in the context of this thread I didn't think that berkbw would be concerned about recovering or washing his brass, and I didn't see any reason to go into additional detail.

The .44 Special cartridge was concieved as one that would use black powder, and has a larger capacity then the .45 ACP which used smokeless from git-go. I have loaded black powder in .45 Colt, .44 WCF, .44 Special, .38 Special, .38 S&W and .32 S&W for use in vintage arms where smokeless might not be a good idea. Works fine in those arms intended to use it. After-shootin cleanup never bothered me, as it's part of the game.

Returning to the original subject, berkbw might me interested to know that because black powder is slow burning (which makes the big muzzle flash) it can actually ignite someone's clothing if they are within a few feet of the muzzle. If the bullet didn't do the job, the flash might! However I strongly suggest a revolver chambered in .45 Colt over a pistol chambered in .45 ACP for this kind of work.
 
Now, if that answer offended you further, too bad!
Click to expand...

I think that comment was uncalled for. Remember what site you are on, thehighroad.org. Sorry berkbw.

I will throw in an idea that I haven't used, but might work better than BP, what about 777? The extra power would really give a boost, and it is cleaner burning than BP.
 
ROFL!!
Thanks much guys. That was a lively and interesting discussion. I think that I will probably not go the .45ACP BP way.
 
It won't hurt anything, other than require extra cleaning.

Somewhere around here I've got pictures of my 5" 1911 after shooting BP loads to investigate the Unintended Consequences survivalist bit. ;)
 
when I was into shooting a 1911 years ago ..it was cheaper for me to buy military ammo from gunshows than to reload with anything ...I haven`t looked in the gunshows in a while ..their use to be full tables of the 45 acp military cheap .
 
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