Questions about moly coating

[Autotargets]

Hi guys, I have some questions about moly coated ammo and I hope you guys can help.

We make targets that sense bullet hits electronically, but in order to work it must be an electrically conductive projectile. Typically lead or copper. If you use something non-conductive such as nylon jacketed, the bullet will not make an electrical connection with the target and it wont detect the hit.

We keep hearing about moly coated ammo and I'm trying to figure out if it is conductive or not. A quick google search suggests that it is, but I need confirmation to be able to tell our customers it will work. Not just by knowing that the coating is conductive, but I'd like to actually shoot some through our targets and make sure it works. It seems to me that you can't buy factory ammunition with the moly coating, you have to either buy moly-coated bullets and load them yourself, or take regular FMJ bullets, add your own moly coating, and then load it. I do have a reloading press and I'm willing to do either, but I wanted to get more info before proceeding.

I found this on amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-No-Mo...8&qid=1479481636&sr=8-1&keywords=moly+coating

But I also know that you can get it in a powder form and tumble it. Which is preferred? How do I apply the spray coating if I decide to go that route?

Any information you guys have is appreciated!

 

[rfwobbly]

Yes, sir. "Moly" is simply an abbreviation for molybdenum, which is also a conductive metal. The coating is fairly thin, and of course, it's plated over a solid lead bullet core.

Hope this helps.

 

[Autotargets]

Thanks, appreciate the input! I'd still like to actually test it to make sure. It could be conductive but even the best conductors have some degree of resistance.

It was my understanding that most moly-coated bullets were actually FMJ with the coating, but you are saying that it's usually applied over plain lead?

What method do you guys suggest for coating some ammo? Spray or powder? I guess I could try both just to be thorough.

 

[Fire_Moose]

Not a whole lot of experience, but I bought a box of the powdery only bullets for 308. I'm pretty sure it was over a copper jacket.

I know for sure it was messy and gets on everything it touches.

But it's such a think later if imagine the lead would still set it off on impact.

 

[jmorris]

You can buy bullets coated in "moly" although they are not "in vogue" these days.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...308-diameter-175-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

Might be worth noting that there are a number of coatings in use these days that are not simply moly powder embedded into a copper jacket.

Powder coat, HI-TEK are two that are fairly popular and neither are conductive.

I don't have any of the bullets I moly coated with the now discontinued Lyman kit but I do still have a box of #22713 Hornady moly coated V-max, and they are also not conducive, open circuit with a VOM.

https://wholesalehunter.com/product.asp?productid=14238

If you want to send me one of your targets I can try it out with all of the above.

 

[Autotargets]

Interesting, thanks for checking with the VOM. According to wikipedia, molybdenum disulfide is used in applications that require electrical conductivity. Yet yours is not conductive. Hmmm...

Also, I ran into a shooter at an event that claimed to be shooting "moly" bullets, I measured them with a meter and it also was an open circuit. He seemed to not really know what it was, so I figured it was powder coating or some other type of coating. Perhaps they mix the molybdenum disulfide with something else, or use some type of wax or something on top of it to keep it from corroding.

The plot thickens....

 

[jmorris]

"Moly" is a term often misused. To some it seems to be what they call any coating.

I have no idea what Hornady's process is and I wish I had saved at least one of my Molybdneum powder embedded bullets and I could test it for you but they were such a mess I gave them all away.

I don't know exactly how your targets work but there is still a chance they may work even with bullets coated with a non conductive coating, if the rifling cuts through the coating and the spots are in the right locations to make the connections you need.

 

[Reloadron]

Are the bullets which are coated conductive? Yes, but with a pretty high resistance. Here are the bullets I tested:




Placing two standard probes in the moly container about 1" apart and 1/2" deep in the stuff was bouncing around 100K Ohms. Trying to measure a bullet was more fun. They do conduct but not a low resistance. I have never recovered bullets which were coated so haven't a clue how much moly is lost going down a barrel. Getting this stuff out reminded me of why I quit using it. This is some messy powder and a little goes a long way.

Checking the bullets gets tricky because the readings are a function of how hard you press the probes down on the bullets. It's not like you have a constant force being applied.

Years ago I got involved with a similar project and we used old style Accelerometers to detect the shock of the bullets hitting the targets. It worked, not great but it worked.

Ron

 

[jmorris]

Accelerometers to detect the shock of the bullets hitting the targets. It worked, not great but it worked.

I have setups that can detect impact on cardboard targets down range but from looking at the OPs setup it seems like they can tell where the bullet impacts on the target, not just that one did.

 

[rfwobbly]

It was my understanding that most moly-coated bullets were actually FMJ with the coating, but you are saying that it's usually applied over plain lead?

Ah, my bad. Sincere apologies. I shoot pistols 99% and being on auto pilot I didn't even think about "moly" rifle bullets. Moly for rifle is as was said above, moly over jacketed. Moly for pistol is molded lead with an electro-deposited coating, almost exactly like copper plated bullets. Moly for both pistol and rifle were a 90's thing. Both have been largely replaced by newer, better technologies.

 

[Reloadron]

I have setups that can detect impact on cardboard targets down range but from looking at the OPs setup it seems like they can tell where the bullet impacts on the target, not just that one did.

I do believe you have it correct. All we cared about was when the bullet struck the target area. I share your sentiments with moly coating. Was maybe 25 years ago it was a rage and I really never noticed an improvement doing it. Some seriously messy stuff.

Actually the pictured bullets are Sierra 168 grain HPBT Match Kings.

Ron

 

[Reloadron]

Ah, my bad. Sincere apologies. I shoot pistols 99% and being on auto pilot I didn't even think about "moly" rifle bullets. Moly for rifle is as was said above, moly over jacketed. Moly for pistol is molded lead with an electro-deposited coating, almost exactly like copper plated bullets. Moly for both pistol and rifle were a 90's thing. Both have been largely replaced by newer, better technologies.

No bad and no apology. Heck, I wasn't even thinking about handgun till I saw some of the post mentioning the assorted coated bullets available of late.

Ron

 

[Autotargets]

"Moly" is a term often misused. To some it seems to be what they call any coating.

I have no idea what Hornady's process is and I wish I had saved at least one of my Molybdneum powder embedded bullets and I could test it for you but they were such a mess I gave them all away.

I don't know exactly how your targets work but there is still a chance they may work even with bullets coated with a non conductive coating, if the rifling cuts through the coating and the spots are in the right locations to make the connections you need.

I think you may be onto something with "moly" being a misused term. It seems like everyone calls it moly if it's something other than lead or fmj. We have tested the targets with powder coated bullets and they work about 10% of the time.

Are the bullets which are coated conductive? Yes, but with a pretty high resistance. Here are the bullets I tested:




Placing two standard probes in the moly container about 1" apart and 1/2" deep in the stuff was bouncing around 100K Ohms. Trying to measure a bullet was more fun. They do conduct but not a low resistance. I have never recovered bullets which were coated so haven't a clue how much moly is lost going down a barrel. Getting this stuff out reminded me of why I quit using it. This is some messy powder and a little goes a long way.

Checking the bullets gets tricky because the readings are a function of how hard you press the probes down on the bullets. It's not like you have a constant force being applied.

Years ago I got involved with a similar project and we used old style Accelerometers to detect the shock of the bullets hitting the targets. It worked, not great but it worked.

Ron

Thank you for checking, I really appreciate it! At this point I think the only way to know for sure is to shoot it and see if the targets detect it. Like you said, pressing on the probes changes the reading, so who knows what happens when the bullet passed through rifling.

I have setups that can detect impact on cardboard targets down range but from looking at the OPs setup it seems like they can tell where the bullet impacts on the target, not just that one did.

Correct, our targets tell you which zone of the target was hit, with up to 4 zones per target. So it wont tell you exact placement, but can tell you whether it was a head shot, center of mass, etc.

Ah, my bad. Sincere apologies. I shoot pistols 99% and being on auto pilot I didn't even think about "moly" rifle bullets. Moly for rifle is as was said above, moly over jacketed. Moly for pistol is molded lead with an electro-deposited coating, almost exactly like copper plated bullets. Moly for both pistol and rifle were a 90's thing. Both have been largely replaced by newer, better technologies.

That makes a lot of sense, and I think it's important that we test both. They guy at the last shoot who had "moly" ammo was shooting 9mm, and it looked textured like you typically see with lead, not smooth like fmj. I assume the process to coat lead is the same as the process to coat fmj? I just bought some of that hoppes moly coating to play around with so I'll try both.

 

[jmorris]

so who knows what happens when the bullet passed through rifling.

Like everything else, it depends. What coating, barrel, load, size diameter, application method, they can all be tested but will vary.

This is an example of powder coat and you can see that 100% coverage was lost at some point.

 

[Reloadron]

Good picture of powder coated bullets, before and after.

Ron

 

[rfwobbly]

That makes a lot of sense, and I think it's important that we test both. They guy at the last shoot who had "moly" ammo was shooting 9mm, and it looked textured like you typically see with lead, not smooth like fmj.

Yes, I got mine from a company named Precision Bullets, and they were anything but smooth. Pot marked and dimpled over the entire exterior. A result I assume of being bulk finished in a tumbler.

 

[Reloadron]

Yes, I got mine from a company named Precision Bullets, and they were anything but smooth. Pot marked and dimpled over the entire exterior. A result I assume of being bulk finished in a tumbler.

The bullets I posted back in post #8 are Sierra 168 grain BTHP Match Kings. I made them in a tumbler I devoted to strictly moly coating. Some used steel shot in the tumblers but I just added bullets about 100 at a time and maybe 1/4 tsp of the moly pictured in post #8. Those bullets came out as smooth as a baby's bottom. Never tried to moly coat plain lead bullets, always bullets with a copper jacket.

Ron

 

[jmorris]

Precision Bullets are another bullet that is also not just "moly", rather a proprietary coating that David has never revealed. Once Hi-Tek made it here, I can say results are very similar between the two.

The powdered Molybdneum coated bullets that I tumbled looked like black mirrors but the left black spider webs in the barrel, they were cast lead.

 

[spitballer]

Getting this stuff out reminded me of why I quit using it. ...

...managing coatings and lubricants is a real chore, for sure. This is one reason why I've looked into archives to find out how the military has attempted to find practical solutions to the coating conundrum. Some fascinating data regarding their research into jacket material and configuration has also been posted on this website but I can't seem to find it at the moment...