questions for you reloading vets

[nra-for-life]

hello all.

i am new to reloading/handloading and i would like some advice on equipment. i have done quite a bit of research but am still trying to figure a few things out before i dive in.

I would like to handload for my rifles, i like the idea as a hobby in itself, but my main goal would be to better my group sizes for long distance shooting, to learn, and to become a more proficient shooter. As a secondary goal i would like to be able to reload 223 as a money saver. This only because 223 is the only caliber i usually ever shoot fast and a little more recklessly.

I have several rifles that i would like to put through their paces and see for myself just how accurate they can be and i think that i have reached the limit of what i can do with factory loads.... The calibers i currently would like to load are: 204 ruger, 22-250, 223, 300 winmag, 300 wsm and 308. Starting out i would like to learn with 223.

so my questions: what king of accuracy difference would you expect out of a progressive loader vs a single stage or turrit style?

id like to buy a scale with an automated dispenser such as an rcbs 1500combo or equivilant? what scale/dispenser combo do you feel is best or most accurate?

if i buy x brand press, am i generally restricted to using xbrand press dies and parts or are a lot of the different brands interchangable with dies and accessories?

right now i am leaning towards getting an rcbs turret deluxe kit and supplementing it with and rcbs 1500 scale/dispenser, a Hornady Lock-N-Load Power Case Prep Center and probably the cablas tumbler recomended in the sticky post for newbies, as well as some other various accessories. any advice on this equipment would be much appreciated. id like to get started in this with 223 with a practical budget of around $1200 for my main equipment. my main thing is i want high quality stuff.

any guidence here is much appreciated. thanks in advance.

 

[GCBurner]

With the same components and loads, you'll get the same accuracy with a progressive press as with a single stage press, you'll just turn out loaded rounds faster.
Presses and dies have pretty much standardized to a common size for most calibres of 7/8" x 14 threads per inch, except for giant rounds like the .50 Browning Machine Gun or .577-450 Martini-Henry, which require a larger diameter die opening, and a larger press overall to handle the cartridge length. If you think you might be be reloading for your elephant gun someday, the Lee Classic Press or the RCBS Rock Chucker have the length of opening, and removable die bushings to handle the oversize cartridges. Otherwise you're free to mix and match dies and presses from different makers. Companies who made dies and presses with non-standard threads are all out of business now, but be sure to check the size if you buy equipment used from ePrey or someplace.
Case tumblers are pretty generic, I think. They all work, so get one that seems durable, and inexpensive. For tumbler media, I think ground walnut shells produce a shinier case, but ground corn cobs seem to work faster; your mileage may very.
I don't have an electronic scale or automated powder measure, so I can't express an opinion there. I use a RCBS adjustable manual powder measure that has worked pretty well, and check the loads at random with a RCBS balance beam scale. Not as easy as pushing a button, but it doesn't require batteries or an electric outlet.
Read the manuals that come with the equipment, get some load books, check the powder and bullet manufacturers' online load data, and have fun.

 

[35 Whelen]

With single stage equipment, there's much better accuracy and quality control. If it weren't true, then the benchrest competitors would use progressives.

id like to buy a scale with an automated dispenser such as an rcbs 1500combo or equivilant? what scale/dispenser combo do you feel is best or most accurate?

I do everything by hand, so I don't know.

if i buy x brand press, am i generally restricted to using xbrand press dies and parts or are a lot of the different brands interchangable with dies and accessories?

All currently manufactured single stage presses use dies that are threaded 7/8-14. I can't say for progressives, but I believe they're the same. I own three different brands of presses and 5 or 6 different' brands of dies and they all interchange.

right now i am leaning towards getting an rcbs turret deluxe kit and supplementing it with and rcbs 1500 scale/dispenser, a Hornady Lock-N-Load Power Case Prep Center and probably the cablas tumbler recomended in the sticky post for newbies, as well as some other various accessories. any advice on this equipment would be much appreciated. id like to get started in this with 223 with a practical budget of around $1200 for my main equipment. my main thing is i want high quality stuff.

Turret presses are a great alternative to progressives. I use an old Lyman. It's my understanding that the Redding turret press is and extremely good press but I love RCBS equipment. Top notch and their customer service is incredible. Really, all the brands you mention are fine. I use and old inexpensive Midway brand vibrator/case cleaner and it's served me well for a long, long time.
One word of advice, good used equipment such as the brands you mentioned above will serve you just as well as the new stuff and save quite a bit of money. My RCBS Rockchecker press is way over 40 years old, has loaded countless thousands of rounds and still works perfectly. Use the money you save to buy components!

35W

 

[loadedround]

35 Whelen: I don't wish to get into a spitting contest with you, but in my 45 years of reloading experience I have never seen a difference in quality or accuracy in loading with a single stage press or progressive press assuming the same quality dies are used on both presses. I have shot competitively for many years and when progressive presses became available reasonably, I changed over to them. Rifle loads( both 223 and 308) then were worked up on a Redding single stage press and loaded in bulk on my Dillon 550 progressive press...again no effect on quality or accuracy. All my ammo these days is loaded on my two Dillon 650's both for speed and accuracy. So come on over with your components and we'll give it a try and I'll spring for the beers afterwards,

 

[cfullgraf]

Single stage presses are always handy to have around. There some reloading tasks that just work better on them.

As already said, most presses these days use standard 7/8"-14 threaded dies so dies are interchangeable between manufacturers presses. But, the die setting between presses are not the same. So, if you want to be able to load the same cartridge on two different presses, like between a single stage and progressive, you will need two sets of dies or readjust them when changing presses.

Personally, I do not see any advantage of a turret press although the Lee auto index feature might have some benefits. I have been involved with several discussions on the production rates on a turret and I just don't see it from my experience. A turret press still does one operation at each stroke of the handle. So, it still takes several strokes to complete a round. I would rather spend less money on a good single stage and use the savings to buy other stuff. Others do disagree with that. Just my opinion.

Progressive presses do not work well on small batches of ammunition. There is too much time setting them up to process just a few rounds.

To find the best accuracy rounds for your rifle, you will want to adjust loads alot until you find the sweet spot. So, you won't be loading lots of rounds at a time during the development. And even then, you may still not load enough to make a progressive session worth while.

223 Remington blasting ammo would benefit from a progressive.

A Dillon 550B might be a good alternative.

It may be less expensive to buy a progressive for 223 Remington and a single stage press for the other cartridges versus buying cartridges change kits for the progressive for all the cartridges.

 

[RandyP]

If you plan on using that trickling scale for all your powder throws, you are going to be batch processing. That does not lend itself to taking advantage of the benefits of a good turret or progressive press.

A lot depends on the volume of ammo you want and your budget. I load 50-75 rounds per hour on my Lee single stage and at a relaxed pace 150-175 on my Lee CLASSIC turret. This is pistol ammo. I do not yet reload any rifle so I'll let others who do chime in.

I have not found any 'accuracy' variances in ammo I've made single stage vs my turret. That is just my experience.

 

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen: I don't wish to get into a spitting contest with you...

Well of course I have no experience with progressive reloading where metallic cartridges are concerned. I assume a progressive will do anything as well as a single stage with , as you point out, good dies.
My assumption lies in the fact that when loading with single stage each and every powder charge is hand measured while with a progressive it is not. Maybe I'm wrong...? I can see consistent charges were a fella to be loading an easy metering ball powder, but what about extruded?

35W

 

[Siggie]

I have to agree that when you are developing loads, a SS turret press is actually more convenient as adjusting a progressive press is taking more time if you want to do this every 5-10 rounds or so. As for accuracy and consistency, I have never noticed deteriorated accuracy or powder charges that where off in my progressive.

The reason why I prefer both?
Dies are interchangeable (if you pay attention to the thread)
SS Turret, I use for developing loads (being 9mm, .308 and .223).
SS Turret, I use for the .308 always. no need to go progressive for 20 rnds/week.
Progressive I use for the bulk stuff. 9mm for IPSC training and matches and .223 for plinking, target shooting and IPSC rifle trainings and matches.

But I am no Benchrest shooter, so I don't measure every bullet. They might advise different.

In short, if spending the extra time and cycles of a progressive with small amounts of ammo does not bother you, get one. If you can afford it try to get both. A good turret press is never money wasted.

 

[gamestalker]

From a different perspective, I am a hard core single stage reloader and have been for over 3 decades. My point revolves around the ability to closely monitor powder charges when using a beam scale v.s. a powder bushing, especially with extruded powders.

And then there is the whole new to reloading scope of things. When charging cases by hand, your more likely to spot a double charge or squib if practicing proper safe reloading, and not allowing yourself to become complacient.

I'm certain the much quicker reloading methods wouldn't exist if they were prone to safety of unreliable performance, both at the bench and at the range. Regardless of the method employed, it all comes down to how much attention we invest into the process, that determines how reliable and safe a cartridge turns out.

 

[rcmodel]

Not as easy as pushing a button, but it doesn't require batteries or an electric outlet.

And you don't have to stand around twiddling your thumbs waiting on it to throw large powder charges!

An auto powder measure might be nice.

But a standard powder measure and scale is way faster to reload with.

See this about that:
http://www.6mmbr.com/powderdispensers01.html

rc

 

[Funshooter45]

First of all, I am in total agreement with getting the RCBS Chargemaster combo unit to dispense rifle powders. I initially just bought the Chargemaster scale part of it and I like it a lot. But now, sure enough, I'm getting ready to order the dispenser part. I am tired of trickling powder in to get that last .2 gr.

But something to be awware of regarding a turret or progressive press if all you're going to load is rifle cartridges. Yeah, I believe they can probably load ammo just as well as a single stage. When I first got my Lee Classic Turret press, I used it for all my revolver and rifle loading as well. I really really like it for the revolvers. But what I discovered is that it doesn't speed up loading for rifles one bit. The reason is that after you size a rifle case, you need to take it off the press and measure and trim for length. Then you need to chamfer and deburr the mouths. And for my rifles, there is no way the Pro Auto Disk powder measure will ever throw 60-70 gr of powder, so you have to measure and weigh the charge anyway. So what's the advantage of a turret press or a progressive? You are constantly taking the case out of the press to do all those other operations anyway. It kind of negates the auto index feature so you disable it and do everything in batches.

So there is no real speed advantage, is there an actual downside to using the turret or progressive for rifles? Well, no not exactly. And if you only have one press, then it will get the job done. However, when I went back to using a single stage for rifles, I upgraded my single stage press to a Redding Big Boss 2. Wow. Talk about leverage. It is just much easier to FL size a 7 mm mag shell on that unit than it is to do it on the turret press. And the other thing is purely psychological. When seating on the turret press, there is a little bit of play or "slop" in the system. Yes, it's consistent, so the bullet gets seated justs as consistently as with the single stage, but with the single stage, it just "feels" so much more solid, it just makes me feel more secure.

 

[ranger335v]

"..in my 45 years of reloading experience I have never seen a difference in quality or accuracy in loading with a single stage press or progressive press assuming the same quality dies are used on both presses."

Ditto. People stress far too much over which press is "better" for accuracy. IF the user knows what the smell he's doing he can do it on almost any press made and IF his dies and components are the same the end results will be the same.

The press makes a difference mainly in how rapid the production is. Most of us are in no hurry and find it easier and relaxing to work precisely with a single stage.

No turret press except Lee's excellant "Classic Turret" with its unique auto-index feature has a time advantage over a single stage, IMHO.

Progressive presses are great ... for turning out large volumes of the same load in a short time. Disadvantage is price and difficulty/cost of switching calibers and the fact that most progressives are made for handgun cartridges, not large rifle cartridges.

The supposed advantages of a digital powder dumpster or a manual measure and beam scale rests mostly on two points. For "speed" it matters a LOT how well a conventional measure/beam scale/trickler are positioned for a smooth and easy work flow AND how clumsy we are with our hands. So far as accuracy of the dropped charges go, it's strickly up to the user how well he measures his charges but no electronic system at any price is any more accurate (if as good) than a careful reloader using manual tools. (I'm a retired precision electronic measurement equipment tech from the space/defence programs and I'm not turning MY powder charges over to ANY consumer grade electronic gadgets.)

 

[osprey176]

If you are new to reloading I suggest you start with a single stage press to learn the basics.You will make mistakes,and using a single stage press will help keep the numbers down.Nothing sucks worse than finishing up a 500 round run,only to realize your powder measure was set wrong.Make haste slowly!

 

[GCBurner]

Regarding speeding up the reloading process - the MOST time-consuming part of reloading fired cartridges is the case preparation and inspection. I've started doing this in batches, when I have some free time. When I have a couple of hundred or so cases, I'll deprime them all with a Lee Universal decapper die, and tumble polish them all at the same time, then inspect them for damage and sort by headstamp into plastic Ziplock containers. Once any cracked or damaged cases are sorted out, I'll resize, trim, and chamfer the cases, then go ahead and prime the cases with a hand primer.
When I'm ready to actually reload, I just pull out however many primed cases I need and add the powder and seat the bullet.

 

[Hondo 60]

If your main goal is saving money ....

.223 probably isn't the best caliber to reload.
Even with cheap 55 gr FMJs, I've found that I only save about 10-15%.
A lot of times I find .223 ammo on sale & save almost nothing by reloading.

Where the real savings come is in handgun reloading (for me anyway).
.38 spl I can save roughly 50%
.45 Colt I can save 70%

Of course YMMV (your mileage may vary)

 

[Funshooter45]

It''s true that the cost savings will be smaller with the .223 loading. That's assuming you compare it to the el cheapo special sales, which is fine as long as you just want something to make noise with. With a little care, your ammo will still be a bit cheaper than that but it will be much higher quality.

Looking at the cartridges the OP intends to load in the future, he will be astonished at the savings he gets with the 300 WSM and 300 Win mag. Factory ammo for those is selling in the $50-60/box range for the good stuff. You can make your own custom amo using the highest quality components for around $18-20/box not counting the brass.

 

[rfwobbly]

Reloading equipment is like modern cars in that they 1) are priced according to features or usefulness, and 2) generally optimized for a specific market segment.

So you need to sit down and determine....
► What calibers you want to reload now and for the foreseeable future (for instance: both rifle and pistol, all rifle, or all pistol)
► How many rounds per week and in what combinations. (For instance: 200 9mm Luger pistol, plus 20 .308 rifle, plus 35 .223 rifle.)
► General quality (plinking vs. Palma match quality)

That info will narrow your choices to a maximum of 2 systems which will make your final choice much, much easier.

 

[VaGunNut]

I use my Dillon 650 progressive as a single stage press when loading rifle except 223 or 7.62x39. These I use in semi-autos and match accuracy is not a factor when plinking.

 

[Searcher4851]

My two cents:

For rifle cartridges, especially if your looking for best accuracy, I use a single stage press. (a 30 some year old RCBS Rockchucker). My reasoning is that there's a lot of experimenting involved to find the load that your particular rifle likes best. There's no need to pump out mass quantities until you find a load that both you and your rifle like. Different powders, different bullets, and hours at the range will lead to the best load for you and your rifle. As mentioned by someone else, there's a lot of case preparation that just doesn't lend itself well to progressive presses. I pretty much do separate operations at different times. I've never used one of them new-fangled fancy nancy powder dispensers, but i know that since every charge has to be weighed, for peak accuracy, and I've heard those electronic ones can be a little on the slow side, I've stuck with a powder dump, manual scale and trickler and have gotten pretty quick with it over the years. I don't load a lot of rounds at a time, rarely more than a hundred, now that I have loads worked out for all my rifles, and I enjoy reloading, sort of a hobby in itself, so speed isn't the real issue for me. I would however be interested in a progressive for handgun ammunition, just for the mass quantities that can be produced.

 

[Lost Sheep]

RFWobbly is right

How you load will determine what equipment will be the best fit for your style. Sometimes it takes a lot of thinking, questioning and experience to figure it out.

For example, if you load 500 rounds at a sitting, a progressive would SEEM to be a good choice, but if those 500 rounds are 100 each of different calibers, maybe not. Switching calibers on a progressive can be 1) expensive, 2) time-consuming or 3) involve a lot of fiddling and adjusting.

An "O" frame press (like the RCBS RockChucker) with a lot of leverage is good for large rifle rounds, but "C" frame presses because of their open front is slightly more convenient, especially if you have large hands.

Your budget (and tolerance for frustration from your equipment) will determine other choices. My friend gave up on one electronic scale because he was frustrated with its long "calming down" time after turning it on or just moving it. He settled on an RCBS Chargemaster, but I think it is more money than I would ever willingly part with for the convenience. I am with Searcher4851 if I wanted to weigh each charge. Besides, a balance-beam scale is immune to a lot of things that bother electronics. I trust mechanical devices more. And they are generally cheaper.

Choosing between single-stage, turret, auto-indexing turret or progressive (manually indexing or automatic) involves a whole lot of thought. And money. I will save that discussion for another time.

Good luck. Welcome to handloading and thanks for asking our advice.

Lost Sheep

 

[nra-for-life]

hi everyone.

first off, thank you for all of the helpful replies!

it is interesting that there seems to be somewhat of a debate amoungst the shooting community as to whether or not a single stage press is more accurate if any than a progressive.... i guess i was expecting the response to be unanoumously that a single stage would have better results, but that doesnt seem to be the general opinion.

okay so i have zero handloading/reloading experience, but just looking at videos available on youtube and around the internet, it seemed that the guys running a single stage were taking a lot more time and consideration on their loads. i was lead to believe that using a digital scale with a dispenser for each load would yeild more accurate results than the automatic dumper thing (forgot what its called) that is present on the progressive presses...? also the progressive presses skip some stages that guys running a single stage were doing, such as cleaning and sizing the primer pocket. so is this step just not all that important?

the reason i was thinking of getting a turret was because i was thinking that it could be used as a single stage press but i would would have a little more speed if i wanted to try to handload a little faster....based on the what you all have said i think i will probably get a single stage press for now and ultimatly once i have developed and tested several loads and found what i like, then possably get a nice progressive. but i dont think that the turret is what i want anymore.


more questions:
several times people have said that the quality of the rounds produced will be dependent on the quality of the dies used (i guess not so much the press?) what features should i look for that makes one die higher quality than another? what dies are you using that you feel are the highest quality?

how acurate are the powder dumps on the progressive presses compared to using a digital scale to measure and fill each case individually?

is it important to crimp rounds? i have three semi autos and the rest are bolt action, if this is relevant to crimping.

how relivant is it to clean the primer pocket? seems like the progressives just punch the primer out and pop a new one in. are you guys that are using progressives removing your primers first, cleaning them, and then just skipping this stage on the progressive? or are you just skipping the primer pocket cleaning all together?

 

[35 Whelen]

several times people have said that the quality of the rounds produced will be dependent on the quality of the dies used (i guess not so much the press?) what features should i look for that makes one die higher quality than another? what dies are you using that you feel are the highest quality?

I agree that quality dies play a role in accuracy, but ultimately, attention to detail and qualty bullets are more important than dies. For example and just to name a very few, I use Hornady dies for my Whelen, RCBS for my 220 Swift and .308...in other words "common" brand dies, yet handloads for these calibers routinely shoot well under 1" and many times, especially the 220 Swift, shoot under 1/2". That being said, the better quality dies will all be more expensive. Redding, Forster and Wilson are all high end dies. I personally think it's a toss-up between Redding and Forster.

is it important to crimp rounds? i have three semi autos and the rest are bolt action, if this is relevant to crimping.

I think crimping is totally unnecessary EXCEPT in the case of tubular fed cartridges. I as a rule crimp the bullets on my 375 Winchester and my 45-70. I never have on either my Garand or my Mini-14. IMHO if your bullets will not stay put without a crimp, you have problems that need to be addressed. I shoot High Power with guys who shoot AR's and Garands and I know for certain they don't crimp their bullets.

how relivant is it to clean the primer pocket?

In and of itself, not very. A clean primer pocket just aids in consistent ignition and primer seating depth. BUT, this added to other little things like uniforming flash holes, weighing cases, controlling bullet run-out etc. all contribute to more accurate ammunition.

Do yourself a favor and pick up or subscribe to Handloader magazine. It's a fantastic rag that I've been reading since the 80's.

Good luck,
35W

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I'm with 35 Whelen in that crimping rounds is only necessary with tubular magazines.

the reason i was thinking of getting a turret was because i was thinking that it could be used as a single stage press but i would would have a little more speed if i wanted to try to handload a little faster

Actually, a turret press IS a single stage press because it only performs one single function with one pull of the handle. There are just stations that allow you the option of not having to reset your dies every time you switch functions.
I personally think that the turret is mainly an advantage for loading handgun calibers. I prefer a regular ol single stage for rifle.

That "automatic dumper thing" is a powder measure and a good one can be very accurate, depending on what powder you're using. Some meter better than others.
I agree with rcmodel that a good powder measure and scale is the way to go when just starting out. For rifle rounds, with most powders, I like to throw a charge about a half a grain light, and trickle up to where I want it. It takes a little time, but I know EXACTLY what is in the case. I'm OCD like that though.

Happy loading.

 

[GCBurner]

Re: Primer pocket cleaning, conditioning, etc. Benchrest target shooters are more picky about this than people who just plink, hunt, or shoot tactical type matches. Once-fired military brass with crimped-in primers needs to have the crimp removed or swaged before repriming, civillian ammo doesn't. Target shooters have tools to make the primer pocket absolutely uniform, as well as the hole in the case. Personally, I just deprime the cases before I tumble polish them, and check and make sure the pocket is clean of any polishing media when they're done, but I'm not a benchrest shooter.

Re: Measuring powder charges with a manual powder measure, or dipper, versus an electronic powder dispenser. Depending on the type of powder you're using, a manual measure with a micrometer adjustable measuring chamber can be remarkably consistent, to within less than a tenth of a grain, pretty much the same as an electronic dispenser. The electronic dispenser weighs every single charge, and target shooters do the same. Based on my experience, I don't think a variation of a tenth of a grain plus or minus is going to make a huge difference at a 100 yard rifle range, or 50 yard or less pistol range. I usually use a RCBS manual measure, and double check every few rounds on a manual scale for consistency. If I were shooting at very long range, or in benchrest competition, I'd weigh every single charge. For practice rounds with a handgun, I frequently use a set of Lee powder dippers; they're consistent enough for IDPA practice at 15 yards or less, and it's a lot quicker than having to set up and adjust the RCBS measure.

Re: Quality of reloading dies. I don't know any manufacturer still in business that makes bad dies. Some specialize in target dies, with claims of tighter tolerances, some full-length resize, some just resize the neck, it just depends on what you're looking for. I mostly use standard Lee Precision dies, because they're less expensive than most, and reload most ammo back to factory ammo specs; standard RCBS and Dillon dies do the same. Forster, I think, goes more for the target-shooter market, offering tight tolerances and high prices, that benchrest shooters and 1,000 yard shooters want.
You pays your money, you takes your pick.

 

[Siggie]

hi everyone.
how acurate are the powder dumps on the progressive presses compared to using a digital scale to measure and fill each case individually?

Depending a bit on the powder used, but for me VV N133 (for .223) and N320 (for 9mm) do throw within 0.1 grain consistently. (I do measure every 10 rifle charges and every 50 pistol charges. but I spend a lot of time in verification as I found it irresponsible to myself to follow internet advice blindly (no pun or offense meant though) ).