questions on reduced reloads for my kid

[blueridgeMTNs]

Looking at the Speer #12 Reloading Manual in section covering the 6mm/243W it shows 85 Grain (part # 1213) reduce load of IMR 4198 of between 17.0 and 19.0 grains.

My question with this is I have the Speer 100gr (part # 1220) and there is no reduced load listed. I was wondering if reduced loads listed apply to a particular bullet only? Speer does not list reduced loads for the 100gr so does this means reduced loads cannot be applied to this bullet? They also list reduced loads for the 90gr bullet.

Another question I have the Speer #14 manual and these bullets do not have reduced loads listed for the bullets. What does this mean? Does that mean Speer no longer suggest reduced loads for the specific bullets? And that we should not be using Speer #12?

Here is what I am trying to do...develop reduced loads for my kids rifle exp with a deer bullet so get his so shoot a bit heavier bullet. I have 95NBT and Hornady 100gr and Speer 100gr. I know Hornady and other manual mention reduced loads with IMR4198 and H4895.

Looking at the Speer #12 book I see the 100gr (#1220) can be load with H414 (with mag primers) at 29.0gr for 2270fps. This may work but curious if there are other reduced loads for the 95NBT and Hornady 100gr. I just do not find reduce loads for these two bullets.

 

[J_McLeod]

If you have H4895 you can make a reduced load for any bullet that has data for H4895. Check for reduced loads on Hodgdon's website, but basically you can go down to 60% of the max load for it. I've never heard of reduced loads with 4198. That would be interesting, It's been one of the more common powders I've seen in the last year. I also have not seen reduced H414 loads, that would be interesting as well. Does 414 require a magnum primer?

 

[gamestalker]

As long as you are using published data that applies to that specific powder, and for a jacketed bullet, you should be fine. Deleted, I got my information wrong.... Man I'm really slipping today.
Stick to what the pros are saying on this.
GS

 

[blueridgeMTNs]

yeah IMR4198 shows reduced loads in Speer #12

Ok. Your response solves all of my problems I think. Yeah Hodgdon states H4895 can be reduced to 60% but just was not sure if this applies to any bullet weight or the bullets listed with reduced loads.

As a side note yeah H414 shows reduced loads in Speer #12 but this is not "called" a reduced load in the Speer #12. The Speer #12 shows for 100gr a listed load of H414 of 29.0 with a velocity of 2270. Even though this is not listed as a reduced load the velocity is pretty low for this powder. Since I have the Ruger American Compact with 18.5 barrel the vel probably will be around 2200 or so. Speer lists H414 with mag primers also.

I forgot to mention that I have the Sierra 85gr BTHP as one of the bullets for this rifle. So I just have to find a reduced load for the bullets I have. Looks like the H4895 is the only powder to use for reduced loads but I do not find any with a 85gr bullet such as the Sierra bullet.

Reason for all of these questions is this is my first time loading for a reduced load and do not want to get a bullet stuck in the barrel which would put this rifle out fo commission for the time being. But my boy is 11 y/o so maybe I can try standard loads and keep the powder at the starting charge which would work except that better accuracy is often obtained with more than starting charge.

 

[Captcurt]

17 to 19gr of IMR4198 will work with bullets from 80 gr to 105gr according to Speer #9 manual. I loaded some 90gr Speer with 18gr for my friends 8 year old grandson. Book said 1800fps. He took 4 deer in 2 seasons and graduated to full loads. Worked swell.

 

[J_McLeod]

Hodgdon gives some reduced loads, but they also give instructions for how to make your own reduced load for any combination with published data for H4895.

My son is 10 and I've been tinkering with the same thing. This weekend I shot some .308 with a 150gr and 33gr of H4895. Accuracy was marginal though. Recoil felt like a .243, so if you do that with a .243 you might get .223 levels.

I might try a few of those with the H414. It's my powder for .243 because it works well and I can't use it with anything else I have. Normally I'm shooting 39.5gr of H414 with a 95gr bullet.

Let us know how it works out.

 

[blueridgeMTNs]

So Capt...older Speer books still apply to today? I thought they may have mentioned somewhere to not follow older books because powder has changed somewhat from a few years ago? So the starting load for a 100gr Speer bullet is 17.0g to a max of 19.0g? Of course work up from a 17.0g. I am just confirming because IMR4198 is not listed with the Speer 100g (Part # 1220) but it is listed with the 100g Grand Slam (part # 1222) from my Speer #12 manual.

 

[Sunray]

The felt recoil difference between a 100 and a 90 is negligible. Isn't much between a 75 and a 100 either. If he can deal with a varmint loads, a deer bullet won't bother him either. Mind you, Hodgdon lists a Trail Boss load(8.0 to 15.3) for a 100 grain bullet that is way lighter than other powders. Too light for deer though.
Felt recoil has a lot to do with the stock design. Mostly the width of the butt.

 

[blueridgeMTNs]

The only reason why I want to try the H414 as I see Speer 100g (part # 1220) (and I am listing part # because there is also a Grand Slam 100g with a different part #) listed with a starting load of H414 at 29.0g and this gives a vel of 2270. Most reduce loads hover around 2000fps when at the max end of the reduce loads so my thinking is a slightly higher velocity would not add significantly to recoil. But who knows with my son's shooting as this is his first time firing a centerfire rifle (he has a 22RF and a 20g). And I am trying to get him ready so he can go hunting with me and if a deer is present that is not way out there let him do the honors

 

[Sunray]

A .243 is close to a 20 ga. He'll be fine.

 

[blueridgeMTNs]

Sunray...your post gave me a chuckle. Here is why...I have a RH 788 carbine 243W (I am a lefty but got a good deal on this to play with so I bought it a few years ago.) and I decided to try to shoot the Winchester 243 80/100gr in this carbine and the recoil was more than I expected for a 18" barrel (I think its 18"). I shot mostly LA in 270/30-06 and have started shooting the 308 cal. Anyway the recoil is not too bad for me but the muzzle blast I knew this would be an issue for a first time shooter. Note that my 243Win BDL has a 22" barrel and the 95NBT is really a pus for me to shoot but here we are talking about a short barrel Ruger American that I bought for me son. I stopped at Wally World to pick up a pair of camo jeans for my boy and saw a Youth M700 ADL with a 20" barrel. Wish I had not bought the Ruger american in 18.5" barrel but I am not sure if the M700 20" barrel would help with the muzzle blast. This is why I am on a reduced load to start him out. He may outgrow this reduce load quickly who knows. BTW the 20ga he has short light target loads and is pretty good with it. I find it hard to believe if he can handle the 20ga he can handle the 243W but we will see shortly.

 

[Boss-302]

My son got his first deer last year at 11 years old. He is a normal sized skinnyish kid and has been shooting the 243 just fine. He also shoots his youth 20 ga nicely.

The best load so far for me with the 243 and Sierra 85 grain hpbt.
41.2 grains of H4350, 85gn hpbt at 2.62"

Data is from this thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651443

 

[Walkalong]

SR-4759 and AA-5744 are also useful for reduced loads in rifle calibers. Speer # 10 (11?) has a lot of reduced loads using SR-4759, and AA-5744 is very similar to it. I use AA-5744 to make .45-70ish loads for my .458 Win Mag.

These are both bulky to get good fill and designed for reduced loads.

 

[blueridgeMTNs]

I have both the IMR4350 and the H4350. The load book that lists all loads for the 243W shows for Sierra bullets (such as the 85gr HPBT) shows they use Fed210M. I do not have the mag primer so was wondering if the current book list a standard primer? The load book I have states for Sierra 85gr HPBT IMR4350 range is 39.6 - 42.2 and there is no H4350 list. But I want to see if they have data that is with a different primer than the Fed210M. Thanks.

 

[Boss-302]

The load I posted above is with a Winchester large rifle primer.

I'm not trying to tell you to use an unpublished load.

More to the point is I think your 11 year old will be just fine shooting a non reduced load.

Good luck to you and your son this hunting season.

 

[blueridgeMTNs]

Boss,

I did not think you were telling me an unpublished load. I was curious what your primer was for your load and was going to ask you this.

I found out that the load I seen in a book with 85gr hpbt was with Fed210M and the M stands for Match...not Mag as I assumed it was.

I am going to load my 85g hpbt with IMR4350 and will not use reduced loads. Several people said youngsters can use regular loads but maybe closer to the starting load but still not in the reduced load category. This is what I am going to load for my son's rifle. And I have several bullets to try but will start with the 85gr hpbt.

I have the Hornady loadbook and in the 2011 edition there is an artricle by Charles Petty. He states he always start a load from a book and uses the exact components such as bullet, brass and primer. I honestly never thought of doing it this way because you know different primers can have a preference for a rifle. I always start with what I have on hand but I have never found a tight group with my first loads. Because of this I thought I'd try to duplicate a load based on the book and see if this makes a difference. Of course in the quest for better groups we can exchange one components a time and for me obviously the same thing is bullet and brass but primers can be be substituted at the mid-range load.

For thos loading for my son's compact Ruger American I am going to use Sierra 85gr hptb and IME4350 and see how it goes as well as see if he is ok with the recoil/muzzle blast and go from there.

 

[Boss-302]

Be sure to let us know how it works out. Nothing better then a happy son or sons in my book.

 

[TheCracker]

If you have H4895 you can make a reduced load for any bullet that has data for H4895. Check for reduced loads on Hodgdon's website, but basically you can go down to 60% of the max load for it. I've never heard of reduced loads with 4198. That would be interesting, It's been one of the more common powders I've seen in the last year. I also have not seen reduced H414 loads, that would be interesting as well. Does 414 require a magnum primer?

This! My daughter has been shooting reduced loads with this stuff for a couple years in 270 works great and shoots well too.

 

[berettaprofessor]

35 grains of H414 behind a 100 grain Hornady BTSP has performed reliably for me....at least as far as clearing the barrel. Still working on a tight group, though.

Another thought, is that I ran into a thread on another site about using Trail Boss powder for reduced loads for rifles. I was unaware that it could even be done. There is actually a chart out there that lists 8 grains of Trail Boss as a starting load (100 grain BTSP with a 2.650 OAL). Maximum load listed as 15.3 grains. Velocity for those two from 1045-1603. Pressure for the maximum load listed as 39100 CUP. It might be a nice reduced load for practice, but at those velocities, I guess I don't expect it's going to have much penetration for hunting.

 

[Sunray]

Hi. Used to command a CF Army Cadet Corps, long ago. Had short statured female cadet(all of 5 foot nothing and about 125ish. I wasn't allowed to weigh 'em.) who could out shoot most of the big, lunking, teenage boys with either a C1A1(Canadian FAL) or a No. 4 Mk I* Lee-Enfield(.303 British).
The FN has little felt recoil unless the stock was too short, then you got whacked on the cheek bone. The No. 4, however, has a narrow butt stock and the .303 used as 174 grain bullet. Hurt to shoot for elderly lumps like myself without a combat jacket. Anyway, the girl had no felt recoil issues with either rifle. The FN would push her down the slight slope in one of the range buildings though. She laughed the whole time.
Yes, an 18", .243, M788 has a bunch of muzzle blast, but I suspect you'll find the kid will be having so much fun shooting with his da, he won't notice that or any recoil.

 

[mboylan]

A 243 has very little recoil. A reduced load won't reduce that mild push or very large flash and blast very much. The flash and blast induces the flinch not the push on the shoulder. Definitely have your son wear both plugs and ear muffs together with the highest possible db rating. The next step is a 24 inch barrel.

 

[J_McLeod]

35 grains of H414 behind a 100 grain Hornady BTSP has performed reliably for me....at least as far as clearing the barrel. Still working on a tight group, though.

Another thought, is that I ran into a thread on another site about using Trail Boss powder for reduced loads for rifles. I was unaware that it could even be done. There is actually a chart out there that lists 8 grains of Trail Boss as a starting load (100 grain BTSP with a 2.650 OAL). Maximum load listed as 15.3 grains. Velocity for those two from 1045-1603. Pressure for the maximum load listed as 39100 CUP. It might be a nice reduced load for practice, but at those velocities, I guess I don't expect it's going to have much penetration for hunting.

I just came back from the range and 39.1gr of H 414 behind a 100gr Hornady BTSP gave me a few groups with all the holes touching.

.243 is mild in itself, it'd probably be .223 level if you reduced it to 60% with H4895.