Race Gun for a CCW?????

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PCRCCW

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I dont compete but have a little in the past and got thinking about something.
CCW is nothing but compromises in all regards. Hell, we cant even get pissed off at someone who really actually deserves it. We dress, socialize, shop, bendover and damn near do everything differently than we used to.

Well what if you didnt have to compromise on your gun! Its capacity/caliber/size..

What if you could carry a Competition/Race gun for a CCW.......Would you?

With the CZ 75B IPCS Ltd, Witness Limited series, Sig X-Five and such that are out, I just got thinking about it. The cost starts at around a grand $ and goes up from there. They are huge/long guns and are quite heavy....but the work that goes into them make them perfect Competition guns and who's to say a real shoot out wouldnt be like that?

Why not carry a gun thats designed for shooting 8 BG's in under 5 Seconds???? :what:

Ok.....I know this is very far fetched. CCW's are small/concealable guns that just dont have the features/details the Comp. guns have. But why not make a smaller version of a Comp. gun with all of the features that make them better shooters????? Im not saying the huge Mag Wells and Optic Sights...but the mechanical features that make them work, hand fitted parts and pcs, SSMMOOOOTTHH triggers and great sights, match grade barrels/bushings....etc....

Ive carried fullsize 1911's (2 at a time, sometimes), CZ97's and 75's, BHP's and so on...so I know what its like to carry larger guns. I think some times
Id love to carry a CZ IPSC with 17 rnds of 40 S&W in it...who knows????

I just thought this would be a fun one to discuss.........shoot well.

And yes, I probably have lost my mind................:D
 
Desert Eagle .357 mag- i know, i know- but it's designed to be a target gun, and that's what you said- it's heavy, and terrible for carry, but i heard it is very accurate.
~TMM
 
Race Gun

I would not carry a race gun for CCW. If you have to use it you will loose it, they get lost at the police station. Best case is you will not have it to take care of it for 4 to 6 months. Medimum to low price with high reliability is the best choice. My first CCW carry choice is SA sub compact and for small size CCW a Kel-Tec P-11.
 
Heck, I'd just go for a Glock 20c with a Docter sight!

(and when that shining day arrives when there is once again that wonder called 'discretionary funds' I intend to sety that very rig up just to try it out!)

;)

Trisha
 
I've carried my Glock 24P around the house many times and could conceal it, even with the 6" barrel, under several of my normal shirts and jackets. I'm seriously considering picking up a CZ 75 IPSC Standard in .40 S&W and having it as one of my carry guns.

My CZ 97B would be larger than the IPSC, and I'll definately be carrying that. I shoot it so well I can't image carrying anything else if I can conceal it. Talk about peice of mind. :D
 
Race gun, you bet!

Zak Smith SV, short dustcover, no mag well, fixed sights...
Click to expand...
:)

Yup, I've an SV, pretty much the same as yours in 9x23 (bull barrel, no bushing, but with an adj sight). I do CCW it on occasion. I also have a (gasp) Glock 34 that I've done the same with. When at home, on my property, it is usually the SV that I carry. I luv 9x23, btw.

Now regarding what PCRCCW said:
Ok.....I know this is very far fetched. CCW's are small/concealable guns that just dont have the features/details the Comp. guns have. But why not make a smaller version of a Comp. gun with all of the features that make them better shooters????? Im not saying the huge Mag Wells and Optic Sights...but the mechanical features that make them work, hand fitted parts and pcs, SSMMOOOOTTHH triggers and great sights, match grade barrels/bushings....etc....
Click to expand...

I normally carry an STI LS40 which is a fairly small, not really 1911 that is surprisingly accurate for it's size and has a good trigger. It will shoot cloverleaf patterns at self defense distances if one is capable.

It's been in the back of my mind to get SV to make me a single stack CCO size pistol. I really do like SV triggers.

If I could talk Nowlin into building one with an Officer's frame just like the following Commander (in 9x23), I'd be very tempted.

http://www.groundzerointernational.com/Nowlin.CDT.Commander.htm
 
I submit that there are a number of reasons not to carry a race gun for CCW.

1. If you have to use it in self-defence, even for a completely justifiable shooting, the cops will confiscate it as evidence, and stash it away in the evidence locker (uncleaned, unprotected, etc.) for anything from six months to four years. During that time, it can be used by cops wanting to play with it, or just go "missing" if someone decides he/she likes it (this has happened far more often than people realize). If you get the gun back, it may have evidence numbers, etc. engraved into the metal (again, a not uncommon practice), and may be rusted, damaged, neglected, etc. Do you really want to subject a multi-thousand-dollar race gun to such things?

2. A race gun doesn't look like a typical defensive handgun - it looks like a professional's weapon. Imagine some left-leaning DA out to make a name for himself... "Hmmm, Joe Citizen just shot a minority member with a tricked-out, slicked-up professional weapon. In court, I can show pictures of these weapons in 'run-and-gun' contests, and make him out to be a militia macho type who was dead set on killing someone, just from the gun he was carrying. Yeah, I think I'll prosecute this case!" That gurgling sound you hear is several thousand (perhaps several tens of thousands of) dollars of your hard-earned money going down the toilet in legal defence fees...

3. A race gun is typically set up in such a way that it's not easy to find a concealable holster to fit it. Optical sights, compensators, enlarged mag-wells, etc. all mitigate against an easy fit in anything concealable, like an IWB holster. This is a factor worth considering.
 
I have carried my STI Edge on several occasions in the winter. It is my USPSA Limited gun. It does everything my Kimber Comact does....but better.

I have no fear of litigation or confiscation regarding my lawful use of it. If I draw it's because my life is in danger. I want the most accurate and reliable tool for the job and I'm worth it.
 
"A race gun is typically set up in such a way that it's not easy to find a concealable holster to fit it. Optical sights, compensators, enlarged mag-wells, etc. all mitigate against an easy fit in anything concealable, like an IWB holster. This is a factor worth considering."

I stated that it would have to be a "toned down" race gun...no bells and whistles......and I can make a holster for it...........:D

"I have no fear of litigation or confiscation regarding my lawful use of it. If I draw it's because my life is in danger. I want the most accurate and reliable tool for the job and I'm worth it."

Amen.................ditto, ditto, ditto.............Shoot well..............
 
Aren't race/competition guns set up in such a way that they sometimes compromise reliability (eg. everything is super tight), for accuracy? Isn't that why some people prefer a "looser" mil-spec 1911 to the hand fitted tricked out ones?

As for price, I'm sure people are carrying expensive weapons, eg. Ed Brown Kobra Carry. They retail for something like $2500, so, evidently, cost isn't a consideration for some people when deciding on what to carry. Similarly, a Kobra carry sitting in lockup and rusting is no less upsetting, I would think, than a race gun in the same situation. Also, why would you compromise on price of a self-defense piece? I mean, people are always saying "how can you put a price on your life of those of your loved ones", and if that's the mentality, wouldn't you want to invest and carry the best piece of equipment you could, regardless of price? (I, of course, being the pauper that I am, probably will never be able to afford any of the pricey guns that are being discussed for several years at least, so what do I know??? ;) )
 
Aren't race/competition guns set up in such a way that they sometimes compromise reliability (eg. everything is super tight), for accuracy?
Click to expand...

No. Most competitors in USPSA are seeking the most reliable pistol possible. When your score is based on points per second you can't afford a malfunction.
 
The one I would like, is not imported into the US, the Tanfolgio Stock, which is a custom defensive pistol with input from bodyguards and police agencies around Europe, handfitted by the Tanfoglio Custom Shop, and supposedly the best they offer. Not imported, as EAA is more interested in making customers UNhappy.
 
2. A race gun doesn't look like a typical defensive handgun - it looks like a professional's weapon. Imagine some left-leaning DA out to make a name for himself... "Hmmm, Joe Citizen just shot a minority member with a tricked-out, slicked-up professional weapon. In court, I can show pictures of these weapons in 'run-and-gun' contests, and make him out to be a militia macho type who was dead set on killing someone, just from the gun he was carrying. Yeah, I think I'll prosecute this case!" That gurgling sound you hear is several thousand (perhaps several tens of thousands of) dollars of your hard-earned money going down the toilet in legal defence fees...
Click to expand...

Sorry man, but there isn't any precedent for this about which I am aware. Mas Ayoob has been a big proponent of such concepts, but he has never provided an example of where any sort of specialized gun used in a justified self defense shooting has changed the circumstances of a self defense shooting to then find the shooter guilty. He has never shown where the use of such guns make the shooter more prone to aggressive prosecution as you suggest.

What you are talking about is a conservative perspective myth. In such matters, it is best to err on the side of being conservative, but that is not the same as justifying concept.

For what it is worth, the prosecution can bring up a lot of factors and play them to the court. This does not mean that anything will change. For example, been to gun school? Then obviously you are a trained killer. Not been to gun school? Then obviously you are an untrained vigilante who should have left the situation to the cops who have training in such matters. Do you compete? Then obviously you are some sort of gun nut.

It is easy to play of factors about a shooter and his/her gear from either side of the coin and make those factors sound negative.
 
Good call, Double Naught Spy.. Ayoob was however trying to throw in possibilities..even if it hasn't happen it can happen.. I have seen prosecutors do weird things in trials..you just never know how low they might sink..

A few years ago, at a simple coroner's inquest, a prosecutor tried to swing an argument against a licensed firearm holder involved in a defensive shooting who had 3 magazines (approx. 45 shots) by saying that the civilian by carrying that much round intended to kill and not to defend because research shows that fewer than 5 shots are fired in self-defense shooting.. so how much 'self-defense' shooting did the guy intend to be involved with in 1 night.

He urged the inquest members to not only consider the enemy without i.e. the known criminals but also the enemy within i.e. 'secret' criminals..

The civilian's lawyer ignored the question stating the unfortunate event but stressing also the necessity of the action taken to protect life but he was redirected to the prosecutor's question by the judge. It became complex after that but the debate centered around whether round count was an indication of intent. Seeing the bias and after having his arguments fall on deaf ears, the lawyer final got through the door when he switched the line of questioning to the 5 shot theory. Turns out that there were a couple of cases of civilians killed because they had runned dry in a gunfight. In any event the court pulled the principle of reasonableness and the lawyer rebuffed by saying it doesn't apply to self-defense since you would not have had prior knowledge of, and the type of, an attack and so would not be able to plan reasonably around it e.g. just don't be there.

It was an interesting inquest (bear in mind the inquest is just to determine if the civilian should be charged in which case it goes to a trial). In the end the inquest ruled lawful self-defence but the civilian did get a tongue-lashing from the judge who also pointed out that no decision taken there was binding and tomorrow the same questions on intent to kill could be asked again in another shooting inquest.

The CCW guy later said he was tempted to shout, to the prosecutor's question about # of self-defense encounters in 1 night, that however much self-defense encounters came his way but I am pretty sure the judge would have sent this to trial.

This case was a key learning for me and other CCW, I mean you're damned every way.. the most frightening thing was the bias inherent in the prosecuting team/judge.. it was uncanny.. Key learning: have a damn good, experienced in SD inquests/trials lawyer esp. because the injustices that you see playing out might make you loose your cool and do/say the wrong things.

I can just picture now the prosecutor saying at an inquest that the race gun is the closest thing you can have to a machine gun in a pistol and pointing out its extravagant price to show how you went out of your way to acquire one..for daily carry in malls, schools, post offices, playgrounds, doctor's offices etc. and scoffing at your claim that it was for self-defense and not genocide.. :(
 
"What if you could carry a Competition/Race gun for a CCW.......Would you?"

...a RIFLE instead.
 
I'd like to see substantiation of Island Beretta's anecdotal "recollection" of that inquest. Was there a news report, to which we might be provided a link? I don't believe that the law in most states requires that one NOT have the intention to kill, in justifiable homicides.

"Yes, your honor, I did fire two shots through that nice man's heart, then another through his head, but I had absolutely no expectation that my actions would result in that nice man's death."
 
Let's look at this from a blank slate.

What is a "race gun"? The term "race gun" refers to the "equipment race" in various shooting disciplines. Competitors try to optimize their equipment within the rules of the discipline to give them the maximum advantage.

Some of the optimizations don't make sense for a self-defense gun, but some do.

Here are some existent optimizations that do make sense: high capacity, "enough" power, reliability, effective sights, ergonomic controls, recoil control.

Likewise, here are some existent optimizations that do not make sense in a self-defense gun (or have negative side effects): adjustable or optical sights, trigger weights under 3.5-4#, magazines so long to make the gun unwieldy, compensator ports, too much weight for CCW (a house gun is a different story).

Furthermore, the goal of a self defense pistol is different from the goal of the "race guns" and the "rules of the discipline" are different. Thus, there may be a separate set of optimizations that a defense gun might have that a competition gun would not. For example, lighter weight and a flat profile might be optimizations you'd see in a CCW gun that would be "agnostic" or a drawback in a competition.

In summary, speaking of "race guns"' suitability to defense as a class is imprecise. There are features commonly found on competition-optimized guns which may have positive use for defense, but there are also competition optimizations which are neutral or detrimental to defense use.
 
Well said.

I compete primarily in IPSC/USPSA "Open", with a Commander-length slide 9 by 23 STI sporting a titanium comp, barrel porting, C-More, and a big mag well. Oddly enough, my primary carry gun is a...Commander-length 9 by 23 STI.

The Commander has a bushing barrel, and I've been known to dabble in IDPA/ESP with it...although due to unrealistic and gamey nature of IDPA, am forced to download the 18-round flush-fit magazines by eight to comply with their cute little gamey rules ;)

I decided to quit toting around a single-stack 1911, since I practice 20-30,000 rounds a year with an STI framed pistol instead of a single-stack. The Law of Primacy seemed appropriate, on much reflection.

And it is hard to feel uncomfortable with an STI.



Alex
 
Rockstar:

In my neck of the woods, a coroner's inquest is not a biggy for a news team, unless it is a mass shooting or someone very famous was killed.. it was however a biggy for us as is all self-defense shooting..because at any moment we could be involved in one and then 'we' are the ones up there..

Zak Smith.. agree! and note also that several race guns have had safety features disabled such as firing pin blocks removed and grip safeties pinned.
 
3. A race gun is typically set up in such a way that it's not easy to find a concealable holster to fit it. Optical sights, compensators, enlarged mag-wells, etc. all mitigate against an easy fit in anything concealable, like an IWB holster. This is a factor worth considering.
Click to expand...

I don't think he would have as much trouble finding a holster as most of us would... ;)
 
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