alexander45
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Much like the judge and governor it's a gimmick to sell to the plebs
"Radically Invasive Projectiles" (RIP) -- good or bad idea?
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gamestalker
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A bullet that comes completely apart upon impact would not be my first choice, second, or third choice for a self defense projectile, no way. Good penetration and expansion are the key elements in a quality self defense projectile, not radical fragmentation. Bunch of hugabaloo and marketing hype.
And what would a jury with limited knowledge of firearms think when they hear the prosecutions description of a "Radically Invasive Projectile"?
For those of us who were around during the Clinton administration, remember the Black Talon? The anti's made it sound like it could easily defeat bullet proof vests, so it got labeled as a cop killer bullet.
No thanks, I'll stick to a quality hollow point for SD.
GS
And what would a jury with limited knowledge of firearms think when they hear the prosecutions description of a "Radically Invasive Projectile"?
For those of us who were around during the Clinton administration, remember the Black Talon? The anti's made it sound like it could easily defeat bullet proof vests, so it got labeled as a cop killer bullet.
No thanks, I'll stick to a quality hollow point for SD.
GS
I don't remember the Black Talon being labeled as a cop killer. I remember someone shooting some people with one and the ME commenting on how nasty the wounds were.
Didn't Winchester just rebrand those under a less sensationalistic name anyway?
Didn't Winchester just rebrand those under a less sensationalistic name anyway?
macadore
Member
Weren't there lightweight bullets shaped like brass rings several years ago. They were overhyped and didn't last long either.
george burns
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Unless we can soot the same life form with it, and a few others to compare it with.
We will never know. But from watching these things come and go for decades, I doubt it does anything special.
We will never know. But from watching these things come and go for decades, I doubt it does anything special.
RustyShackelford
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Names & labels...
Yes, the Black Talon of yore, became the Ranger T/T Series of today.
www.winchesterLE.com
In the hype & hussle of the late 80s/early 1990s, the Winchester Black Talon was railed against.
ER doctors & EMTs(firefighters) would grouse about "ripping" the latex gloves on the sharp projectiles.
Some pundits & media wags acted like the Black Talon in .45acp or 9mm was like Thor's hammer or a bolt of lightening.
To change a label or re-package it, isn't going to make it more deadly.
Yes, the Black Talon of yore, became the Ranger T/T Series of today.
www.winchesterLE.com
In the hype & hussle of the late 80s/early 1990s, the Winchester Black Talon was railed against.
ER doctors & EMTs(firefighters) would grouse about "ripping" the latex gloves on the sharp projectiles.
Some pundits & media wags acted like the Black Talon in .45acp or 9mm was like Thor's hammer or a bolt of lightening.
To change a label or re-package it, isn't going to make it more deadly.
mljdeckard
Member
You guys who tell yourselves that nothing bad can happen in a 'gun friendly' state, or that 'a clean shoot is a clean shoot' need to be VERY careful. It doesn't matter what state you're in or how strong your gun laws are. All it takes is a rookie DA looking to make a name for himself and a judge who has been sleeping on the couch for a week, and you will be putting your lawyer's kids through school instead of your own. Harold Fish was in the MOST gun friendly state.
RustyShackelford
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True.....
I was going to bring up Fish vs AZ but I don't want to keep kicking that dead horse.
I agree 100% but when someone is in a jail or a prison because they had a good plan or thought the legal system was on their side that will teach them!
I was going to bring up Fish vs AZ but I don't want to keep kicking that dead horse.
I agree 100% but when someone is in a jail or a prison because they had a good plan or thought the legal system was on their side
that will teach them!
Big7
Member
There you go.
I'll stay with +p+ Speer Gold Dots all day long.
I'll stay with +p+ Speer Gold Dots all day long.
Conventional wisdom on ammo selection says buy and use what the cops use. At that point you have 1) selected a round that has undergone serious testing for actual results, and 2) has been vetted by a large number of departments all of which are very concerned over the legalities. Administrators don't set themselves up for lawsuits.
That and bullets don't do much different, they penetrate and at some point expand leaving a larger wound cavity. The military - despite street ignorance about "the Geneva Convention says it can't be hollow points" uses a full metal jacket because they have to penetrate the obstacles or armor first. On the city streets the FBI protocol testing recognizes that reality but also tries to accommodate the unintended consequence of shooting thru the perp and hitting an innocent person behind them.
It's all a balancing act with handgun ammo. But, when somebody markets a round that seems to skew the performance curve excessively, that is where the average consumer is going wrong. Whether solids or empty gilding, you don't get across the board performance to deal with the larger average confrontation. You get some weird special case ammo that only works in a small number of actual situations.
You want to laugh at ads for hyped merchandise, just surf the ads for knives "used by Delta Force operators in the heated deserts/jungles of 'Stan/Nam/Africa/New Jersey." The big indicator of hype is extreme adjectives and descriptive terms like "evisceration, ripping, devastating," etc as if the weapon actually tears the victim apart by brute force.
Not. Sidearms and knives poke holes in people. Grab the holiday ham or turkey and try it yourself. It's why we use sharp edges to facilitate it, even if cooked.
ANY product that uses scantily clad women and exaggerated language to describe the product isn't being sold to adults, regardless of the calendar age that might be required for purchase.
That and bullets don't do much different, they penetrate and at some point expand leaving a larger wound cavity. The military - despite street ignorance about "the Geneva Convention says it can't be hollow points" uses a full metal jacket because they have to penetrate the obstacles or armor first. On the city streets the FBI protocol testing recognizes that reality but also tries to accommodate the unintended consequence of shooting thru the perp and hitting an innocent person behind them.
It's all a balancing act with handgun ammo. But, when somebody markets a round that seems to skew the performance curve excessively, that is where the average consumer is going wrong. Whether solids or empty gilding, you don't get across the board performance to deal with the larger average confrontation. You get some weird special case ammo that only works in a small number of actual situations.
You want to laugh at ads for hyped merchandise, just surf the ads for knives "used by Delta Force operators in the heated deserts/jungles of 'Stan/Nam/Africa/New Jersey." The big indicator of hype is extreme adjectives and descriptive terms like "evisceration, ripping, devastating," etc as if the weapon actually tears the victim apart by brute force.
Not. Sidearms and knives poke holes in people. Grab the holiday ham or turkey and try it yourself. It's why we use sharp edges to facilitate it, even if cooked.
ANY product that uses scantily clad women and exaggerated language to describe the product isn't being sold to adults, regardless of the calendar age that might be required for purchase.
RustyShackelford
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FWIW.....
The US Army Delta Force no longer exists
.
It was shut down & re-organized by SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld in the early 2000s. SFOD-1(Delta), SEAL-06(also called DevGru or Development Group) & a few other classified tier-one units were placed under the direct command & control of the DoD. They are still a part of the US Special Operations Command but aren't run the same as other spec ops(Rangers, ForceRecon, CCTs/STS, etc).
The new name is ACE or Army Combative Elements. That label may change too with time. Some service members or media use the term; CAG or Combat Applications Group. That name isn't official but to my knowledge, it's still applied to what was the Delta Force.
The US Army Delta Force no longer exists
.It was shut down & re-organized by SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld in the early 2000s. SFOD-1(Delta), SEAL-06(also called DevGru or Development Group) & a few other classified tier-one units were placed under the direct command & control of the DoD. They are still a part of the US Special Operations Command but aren't run the same as other spec ops(Rangers, ForceRecon, CCTs/STS, etc).
The new name is ACE or Army Combative Elements. That label may change too with time. Some service members or media use the term; CAG or Combat Applications Group. That name isn't official but to my knowledge, it's still applied to what was the Delta Force.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I thought the fragmentation bullet made it's rounds and was dismissed already....I load my own so I'm not interested in this product and have to wonder who would be?
There's a lot of excellent and proven bullet designs in all major calibers so I'd have to assume this kind of radical bullet is marketing hype. I personally prefer penetration above all else in an SD round so a bullet that comes apart into a bunch of small bits that creates a nasty superficial wound is not in my choices.
VooDoo
There's a lot of excellent and proven bullet designs in all major calibers so I'd have to assume this kind of radical bullet is marketing hype. I personally prefer penetration above all else in an SD round so a bullet that comes apart into a bunch of small bits that creates a nasty superficial wound is not in my choices.
VooDoo
buck460XVR
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That don't work with those of use that handload. Altho components can be used to get similar velocities and expansion. Conventional wisdom to me says, use a proven projectile at an appropriate velocity and shoot it from the appropriate firearm.
^^^This is very true, altho I admit, I myself am often tempted by scantily clad women. .
FWIW....about a week ago one of my posts was edited by a moderator here because of the phrase "Provocatively dressed". Apparently that meant naked and thus inappropriate for a family forum.
I wonder where "scantily clad" fits in.YeagersClaw
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Yeah, I feel like we just made fun of this ammo a second ago and even that first thread got closed down.
All of the attention we bring it here no doubt boosts the attention to it further deepening the "centripetal force" on their sales.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-741796.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-741796.html
All of the attention we bring it here no doubt boosts the attention to it further deepening the "centripetal force" on their sales.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-741796.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-741796.html
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we are not amused
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For those who are criticizing me for saying me for saying that since I live in a more "civilized" State than many, I don't fear standing before a jury of my peers in a "good" self defense case. Yes there are always going to be insane Judges, Prosecutors, and other Left-wing scuz balls, and yes, Kansas has elected more than a few such. But we do have a jury system, and Kansans do believe in the right of self-defense. I would much rather be judged by twelve, than be carried by six, especially in Kansas.
To refuse to use your right of self defense "in extremis" for fear of prosecution, simply defeats the whole purpose of self defense, and is likely to lead to a very bad result.
I do realize that many on this site do not believe in the use of a gun for self defense, and are very quick to criticize any who do, or would do so. It is a free country, so be it.
I am not inclined to worry about what anti-gun whack jobs say about a type of ammo, after all, said whack jobs also oppose "hollow point" bullets. If you have any doubt about that, read the anti-gun whack jobs' propaganda.
I am not defending the efficiency of the RIP ammo, I said I would wait for ballistic reports by people I judge to be fair and impartial.
If it works, one would be a fool to not use it. I seem to remember at one time, hollow point bullets were more than somewhat controversial, with all the chest pumping and moral posturing that went with it.
People have brought up the "Black Talon" and rightly point out it is still in production, up graded and improved under a different name, and is often used by Law enforcement.
To refuse to use your right of self defense "in extremis" for fear of prosecution, simply defeats the whole purpose of self defense, and is likely to lead to a very bad result.
I do realize that many on this site do not believe in the use of a gun for self defense, and are very quick to criticize any who do, or would do so. It is a free country, so be it.
I am not inclined to worry about what anti-gun whack jobs say about a type of ammo, after all, said whack jobs also oppose "hollow point" bullets. If you have any doubt about that, read the anti-gun whack jobs' propaganda.
I am not defending the efficiency of the RIP ammo, I said I would wait for ballistic reports by people I judge to be fair and impartial.
If it works, one would be a fool to not use it. I seem to remember at one time, hollow point bullets were more than somewhat controversial, with all the chest pumping and moral posturing that went with it.
People have brought up the "Black Talon" and rightly point out it is still in production, up graded and improved under a different name, and is often used by Law enforcement.
we are not amused
Member
FWIW....about a week ago one of my posts was edited by a moderator here because of the phrase "Provocatively dressed". Apparently that meant naked and thus inappropriate for a family forum.
Depends upon the prudishness of the moderator, and your guess is as good as anybodys.HankB
Member
A couple of thoughts, in no particular order . . .
1. As a rule of thumb, the more impressive the name, the less impressive the performance. So if you ever see "Tactical Ninja Extreme Fireball Lightning Deathdragon" ammo, you'll be lucky if it even goes "bang."
2. I have serious reservations about the reliability & QA of ammo from small "boutique" ammo manufacturers. (Not that the big guys haven't had their problems, too.)
3. If you're one of those who is concerned about the legal aftermath of possibly using ammo with a "deadly name" . . . you're probably not alone. Note that Glaser chose to call their prefragmented ammo a safety slug, designed to reduce ricochet risk.
I'm just old enough to remember when Super Vel turned the ammunition world upside down with their attention to terminal ballistics - up until then, if you wanted seriously effective handgun ammo, for many cartridges you had to handload. Things are different today, and I personally think the premium lines of the major ammo manufacturers are very suitable for personal defense, without the need to resort to magic bullets or marketing trickery.
1. As a rule of thumb, the more impressive the name, the less impressive the performance. So if you ever see "Tactical Ninja Extreme Fireball Lightning Deathdragon" ammo, you'll be lucky if it even goes "bang."
2. I have serious reservations about the reliability & QA of ammo from small "boutique" ammo manufacturers. (Not that the big guys haven't had their problems, too.)
3. If you're one of those who is concerned about the legal aftermath of possibly using ammo with a "deadly name" . . . you're probably not alone. Note that Glaser chose to call their prefragmented ammo a safety slug, designed to reduce ricochet risk.
I'm just old enough to remember when Super Vel turned the ammunition world upside down with their attention to terminal ballistics - up until then, if you wanted seriously effective handgun ammo, for many cartridges you had to handload. Things are different today, and I personally think the premium lines of the major ammo manufacturers are very suitable for personal defense, without the need to resort to magic bullets or marketing trickery.
blarby
Member
While this is great theory, people aren't made of ballistic gel.
Some yes, others no. Some small outfits take enormous amounts of time/money getting it right. Other outfits spend that money on box "models".
RustyShackelford
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Judges, jurors, guns & ammo.....
first, Id make the point that small firms or companies that manufacture a product aren't all bad, .
I recently shot up a few MagSafe SWAT .45acp rounds in my Glock 21 .45acp generation 04. www.Magsafeonline.com
The "exotic" rounds were loud but as described, the SWAT loads had less recoil & muzzle flash(than other FMJ & JHP bullets). I kept 05/five rounds of MagSafe SWAT to use for home protection. I live in a urban area of a medium size city so I like the "frangible" concept.
My EDC/regular .45acp round is the Hornady Critical Duty +P. It has great specs & is available for decent prices in many places. I may buy a 50rd box of Federal HST 230gr JHP +P. It's not cheap & hard to get, but the ballistics are slightly better than the Critical Duty .45acp rounds. HSTs are in use with a few US police agencies due to the design & ballistics.
As for a post-shooting trial or criminal investigation, I would feel more inclined to explain my use of a MagSafe SWAT round or LE type JHP than some "super-death" "mega-killer" or "gun-slinger" type label.
Some forum members might say "hey, so what" or "yee-haw, screw the law" but things might change when the lawyers, cops & media show up.
Research Ward vs Florida. "Bob" Ward was a upper middle class man who was charged with shooting/killing his wife in a domestic dispute. The jurors asked the judge to review & inspect the murder weapon; a S&W J frame .357magnum revolver(TDA or DA/SA). They convicted the defendant based partly on these actions.
FWIW; my state doesn't permit security officers or PIs from using frangible or "exotic" rounds like DRT, MagSafe, Glaser Safety Slugs. When I asked a state official why, the general response was the same as a forum reply; that the QC or ballistics were uneven and they didn't want some small shop or "back-room" ammunition company to be used in a licensed occupation.
first, Id make the point that small firms or companies that manufacture a product aren't all bad,
.I recently shot up a few MagSafe SWAT .45acp rounds in my Glock 21 .45acp generation 04. www.Magsafeonline.com
The "exotic" rounds were loud
but as described, the SWAT loads had less recoil & muzzle flash(than other FMJ & JHP bullets). I kept 05/five rounds of MagSafe SWAT to use for home protection. I live in a urban area of a medium size city so I like the "frangible" concept. My EDC/regular .45acp round is the Hornady Critical Duty +P. It has great specs & is available for decent prices in many places. I may buy a 50rd box of Federal HST 230gr JHP +P. It's not cheap & hard to get, but the ballistics are slightly better than the Critical Duty .45acp rounds. HSTs are in use with a few US police agencies due to the design & ballistics.
As for a post-shooting trial or criminal investigation, I would feel more inclined to explain my use of a MagSafe SWAT round or LE type JHP than some "super-death" "mega-killer" or "gun-slinger" type label.
Some forum members might say "hey, so what" or "yee-haw, screw the law" but things might change when the lawyers, cops & media show up.
Research Ward vs Florida. "Bob" Ward was a upper middle class man who was charged with shooting/killing his wife in a domestic dispute. The jurors asked the judge to review & inspect the murder weapon; a S&W J frame .357magnum revolver(TDA or DA/SA). They convicted the defendant based partly on these actions.
FWIW; my state doesn't permit security officers or PIs from using frangible or "exotic" rounds like DRT, MagSafe, Glaser Safety Slugs. When I asked a state official why, the general response was the same as a forum reply; that the QC or ballistics were uneven and they didn't want some small shop or "back-room" ammunition company to be used in a licensed occupation.
sonick808
Member
who knows, they might be highly effective. I forget where i saw some clear gelatin tests, and those reflected a dispersion of petals I would NOT want occuring in my body. Witholding judgement since i lack data
MachIVshooter
Member
Your life, your choice. We're just trying to make you cognizant of the fact that your choice of ammunition (as well as firearm, how many magazines, other "tactical" gear, overall demeanor, etc) will be on trial in addition to the facts. Your chances of being indicted are much higher if you come across as an operator wanna-be who couldn't cut the mustard with an agency than if you're a respectably dressed, gainfully employed and otherwise responsible member of society.
You cannot operate under the assumption that a defensive shoot will be "clean cut". Clear as mud is more likely, with confused or absent witnesses, ambiguous evidence, and likely some changes to your own story between the initial police contact and a later statement. We're not talking about home defense here, where (in most states) lethal force is justified if you even feel threatened by an intruder. In public, you have to prove that you had no choice but to use deadly force to prevent great bodily injury or death to yourself or an innocent 3rd party. Justifiable homicide is an affirmative defense; you're admitting to killing another human being, but trying to make the case that their actions were a grave enough threat that you had no choice. Fail to convince the jury of that, and you get murder (or manslaughter) without question.
I'd strongly suggest you spend some time reading in Legal and S&T, as well as researching some of the higher profile cases of SD across the US. People who actually have to use lethal force in self defense are almost always drug through the mud by prosecutors, and left with a whole lot less money than they had. Or worse, they end up convicted of murder, and maybe have the conviction reversed on appeal (Harold Fish vs Arizona). Or maybe not.
Is what you have to tell yourself in order to rationalize dismissing the advice you've been given? I seriously doubt you'll find many websites where a larger percentage of members believe in the use of firearms for self defense.
Machine guns work very well. Even if I owned one legally, I wouldn't use it for self defense unless it was my only choice.
Utility is not the only thing that matters.
RustyShackelford
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Justice Files; LA area watch dealer....
I watched a interesting video of a older(mid 1990s) cable news story of a Los Angeles CA area merchant who smoke-checked five/05 different armed felons in different incidents.
This guy was brave & stood up to the thugs, using handguns & superior tactics.
The watch shop owner, Frank Thomas(I think but not 100% sure) was shot a few times too.
He finally closed the business after the 5th event had 2 gang members/career criminals killed. The gangs made a few threats & chased the guy into hiding.
Even the crusty police detectives gave Thomas credit for his cool demeanor & skill.
This shop owner is a rare exception but it can show any CCW license holder or armed professional that you can use good tactics, training & proper mindset.
I watched a interesting video of a older(mid 1990s) cable news story of a Los Angeles CA area merchant who smoke-checked five/05 different armed felons in different incidents.
This guy was brave & stood up to the thugs, using handguns & superior tactics.
The watch shop owner, Frank Thomas(I think but not 100% sure) was shot a few times too.
He finally closed the business after the 5th event had 2 gang members/career criminals killed. The gangs made a few threats & chased the guy into hiding.
Even the crusty police detectives gave Thomas credit for his cool demeanor & skill.
This shop owner is a rare exception but it can show any CCW license holder or armed professional that you can use good tactics, training & proper mindset.
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