RBCD Ammo
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Shawn Dodson
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Coltdriver writes:
http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=9846055883
More RBCD baloney for ya:
http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=9846055883
Jeff OTMG
Member
rebbryan, my mistake, you are correct. Many of the demo's are in northern Va. for various govt. groups. When I spoke to the people there and when Roscoe was going for a demo it was usually in Va. and I was confused. The Blackwater training facility is in NC.
Blueduck, I don't know for sure, but I could guess at a couple of things. First is that the .357 Mag is VERY dependent upon barrel length for velocity. When I bought a S&W 940 2" 9mm revolver, S&W had not come out with the .357 J-frame yet so I chrono'd the 9mm rounds against various .357 Mag loads out of my 3" Mod 65. The standard for the 9mm was the 115gr Corbon and the only load faster from the .357 was the 125 JHP loads and those were only faster by 100 fps or so. The 9mm and .357 SIG rounds are much more powder efficient than a .357 Mag.
Second, I don't know what the SAAMI pressure standards are for either round, but if it is higher for the .357 SIG then that could account for some of the higher velocities.
Checking my ballistic charts I see that the .357 SIG round was fired from a 4.02" barrel while the .357 Mag was fired from a 2.19" barrel. I am going with my first guess on this one as the major reason.
Blueduck, I don't know for sure, but I could guess at a couple of things. First is that the .357 Mag is VERY dependent upon barrel length for velocity. When I bought a S&W 940 2" 9mm revolver, S&W had not come out with the .357 J-frame yet so I chrono'd the 9mm rounds against various .357 Mag loads out of my 3" Mod 65. The standard for the 9mm was the 115gr Corbon and the only load faster from the .357 was the 125 JHP loads and those were only faster by 100 fps or so. The 9mm and .357 SIG rounds are much more powder efficient than a .357 Mag.
Second, I don't know what the SAAMI pressure standards are for either round, but if it is higher for the .357 SIG then that could account for some of the higher velocities.
Checking my ballistic charts I see that the .357 SIG round was fired from a 4.02" barrel while the .357 Mag was fired from a 2.19" barrel. I am going with my first guess on this one as the major reason.
Jeff OTMG
Member
Coltdriver, you might get a kick out of these 'test' shots.
This is a 10lb roast beef being hit by a 10mm RBCD
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/a10mmSPLP.htm
and a 9mm hitting a 4 lb roast:
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/c9mmcoldnhotB.htm
more good meat photos here:
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/bDrGKrebuttal.htm
This is a 10lb roast beef being hit by a 10mm RBCD
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/a10mmSPLP.htm
and a 9mm hitting a 4 lb roast:
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/c9mmcoldnhotB.htm
more good meat photos here:
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/bDrGKrebuttal.htm
New_comer
Member
WHOA!!! 
Where did the meat go????
Where did the meat go????
Preacherman
Member
I'm afraid the "meat tests" don't provide a suitable test medium either... If you take a ten-pound hunk of steak, and shoot it, you're shooting into a very dense medium that does NOT equate to the human body. Sure, the RBCD results in meat are impressive: but what about on humans, with their mixture of hard and soft tissue, bone, air space, internal organs, etc.? I would be much more interested in seeing an animal shot with this round, and then have a forensic pathologist dissect the bullet wound. That would show the variations in bullet performance against different kinds of tissue, bone, etc.
Ballistic gelatin testing is not the same as "real-world" combat, but it has been shown to have a pretty good correlation to actual, real-world bullet performance. For a distributor to claim that they don't accept ballistic gelatin results, and stage their own tests on unrealistic targets, is not convincing.
Ballistic gelatin testing is not the same as "real-world" combat, but it has been shown to have a pretty good correlation to actual, real-world bullet performance. For a distributor to claim that they don't accept ballistic gelatin results, and stage their own tests on unrealistic targets, is not convincing.
Jeff OTMG
Member
agtman, that is the only 10mm load that RBCD makes as far as I know. You would have to contact the guys at that website to find out for sure. I do not know them, but they are the distributors for the LE versions of RBCD. The LE loads are the same velocities as the civilian versions, but the LE slugs have tungsten added to the mix which allows vest penetration which is why they are not available to us.
Check out their website, they have lots of neat photos in each link.
There is no accurate test medium. Gelatin, clay, meat (beef? pork?), wax, wet newpaper, wet cement, wet plaster, or water all leave something to be desired. The problem with many of them is the non-elasticity of the test medium, like the clay, but the inelastic medium do make it easier to see the cavity and I don't think that anyone would claim that something that punches a hole through a clay block would be more effective that a load that blew half the block away, opened the remainder into a relatively flat sheet, and knocks the remainder off the stand. The catch is to pick one medium and stay consistant. Meat is not a bad approximation of a human thigh, but do we really want to know how well it does against a thigh? I still think that 10mm shot is IMPRESSIVE! That is a 10 pound roast!!! Do you know how big that is? That is bigger than the roasts I buy at Sam's. The big problem with the RBCD gelatin tests is that at 15 feet half of the 8"x8" block tends to disappear which is why the gelatin shots on the RBCD website were fired at 30 feet. In the RBCD video, I have a copy if anyone wants to see it, any gelatin block being fired at with above .38 Special caliber is strapped down to the table because they were getting blown off.
For the guys that don't like RBCD, that's fine. You can come up with all the excuses you want, but the only loads that I have seen that approximate the wounds of RBCD in clay, gelatin, or meat are the Glasers and MagSafes. Unfortunately those loads lack penetration, which is great if you are in an apartment, but a poor choice if you are shooting at someone through a car windshield. Then again, how often do we do that?
Here is a shot of the Speer 185gr Gold Dot in .45 ACP after passing through 4 layers of denim, a 4.5 pound roast:
Now the RBCD .45 ACP through four layers of denim, a 4.5 pound roast:
Be sure to check out the .223 shots as well!!!!
They do have this comment on one page:
"Shown above, starting top left clockwise, these single shots were taken with a 9mm pistol, 9mm pistol, 5.56 rifle, and 7.62 rifle. All shots produce instant incapacitation. At your request a master vhs tape of the live fire will be provided, for verification of the authenticity of all extracted photos contained in this report."
So you wanted live animal shots, they have them. My guess is that they are not available to just anyone and are probably only available to govt agencies, but if you want a video of animals being shot I suggest you go ahead and make your own.
Check out their website, they have lots of neat photos in each link.
There is no accurate test medium. Gelatin, clay, meat (beef? pork?), wax, wet newpaper, wet cement, wet plaster, or water all leave something to be desired. The problem with many of them is the non-elasticity of the test medium, like the clay, but the inelastic medium do make it easier to see the cavity and I don't think that anyone would claim that something that punches a hole through a clay block would be more effective that a load that blew half the block away, opened the remainder into a relatively flat sheet, and knocks the remainder off the stand. The catch is to pick one medium and stay consistant. Meat is not a bad approximation of a human thigh, but do we really want to know how well it does against a thigh? I still think that 10mm shot is IMPRESSIVE! That is a 10 pound roast!!! Do you know how big that is? That is bigger than the roasts I buy at Sam's. The big problem with the RBCD gelatin tests is that at 15 feet half of the 8"x8" block tends to disappear which is why the gelatin shots on the RBCD website were fired at 30 feet. In the RBCD video, I have a copy if anyone wants to see it, any gelatin block being fired at with above .38 Special caliber is strapped down to the table because they were getting blown off.
For the guys that don't like RBCD, that's fine. You can come up with all the excuses you want, but the only loads that I have seen that approximate the wounds of RBCD in clay, gelatin, or meat are the Glasers and MagSafes. Unfortunately those loads lack penetration, which is great if you are in an apartment, but a poor choice if you are shooting at someone through a car windshield. Then again, how often do we do that?
Here is a shot of the Speer 185gr Gold Dot in .45 ACP after passing through 4 layers of denim, a 4.5 pound roast:
Now the RBCD .45 ACP through four layers of denim, a 4.5 pound roast:
Be sure to check out the .223 shots as well!!!!
They do have this comment on one page:
"Shown above, starting top left clockwise, these single shots were taken with a 9mm pistol, 9mm pistol, 5.56 rifle, and 7.62 rifle. All shots produce instant incapacitation. At your request a master vhs tape of the live fire will be provided, for verification of the authenticity of all extracted photos contained in this report."
So you wanted live animal shots, they have them. My guess is that they are not available to just anyone and are probably only available to govt agencies, but if you want a video of animals being shot I suggest you go ahead and make your own.
rebbryan
Member
i was just checkin jeff cuz that's the only training site in my area that i know of and got a little worried when you said virginia
those photos are amazing. any way you can make a copy of that video and send it to me or know where to get one? i know A LOT of people who wanna see it. it looks like they put m80's in the clay blocks when they shoot em
those photos are amazing. any way you can make a copy of that video and send it to me or know where to get one? i know A LOT of people who wanna see it. it looks like they put m80's in the clay blocks when they shoot em
Jeff OTMG
Member
rebbryan, I have a few copies of the video and I can loan you one, just be sure to send it back. If you are not in one of my states I can't sell you the ammo, but you can order it from RBCD. Email me your address and I will send you off a video. I have seen the old version of the video that was only clay shots, but this one has gelatine shots as well from what I understand. (I will get to see the video this weekend)
Preacherman,
You might want to search TFL for a post by a user with "deputy" in his name. He essentially eviscerated an attacking 250# feral hog with a 9mm RBCD round. Needless to say, the hog dropped instantly, and hogs are some of the toughest targets to take down with a handgun....
Maybe somebody here knows exactly where the thread is, but I'll bet it can be found by searching for Blackhawk, RBCD, hog, and deputy* because I remember posting to it. Amazing story!
You might want to search TFL for a post by a user with "deputy" in his name. He essentially eviscerated an attacking 250# feral hog with a 9mm RBCD round. Needless to say, the hog dropped instantly, and hogs are some of the toughest targets to take down with a handgun....
Maybe somebody here knows exactly where the thread is, but I'll bet it can be found by searching for Blackhawk, RBCD, hog, and deputy* because I remember posting to it. Amazing story!
rebbryan
Member
email sent, thanks jeff. all i need now is a .50 cal rifle and the new RBCD .50 BMG ammo to blow me up some deer 
Andrew Wyatt
Member
next time i ever have steaks attack me i'll know what ammo to use.
I like my ammo to actually reach internal organs when i shoot sometthing. expansion is just gravy.
I like my ammo to actually reach internal organs when i shoot sometthing. expansion is just gravy.
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,198
I believe differently. Of test media, only properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin has been shown to be a realistic soft tissue simulant.
No, the catch is to use a realistic soft tissue simulant of adequate size to capture all the wounding effects of the cartridge under test. Unrealistic test media provide unrealistic results.
Unless it is freshly killed meat the results are not the same because the muscle tissue is aged, dried out, not as elastic and is more easily damaged.
It’s not that I “don’t like†RBCD, it's just that all the test “data†I’ve seen so far from RBCD/LeMas is invalid, in addition to absurd claims about its performance by people who have a financial interest.
Coltdriver
Member
Jeff OTMG,
I had not revisited this thread for a while. What a picture! Of course you know there is no relationship between cow meat and human meat
If that pic does not make a believer out of anyone, then further discussion is pretty much a waste of bandwidth.
I wrapped my canned ham in a towel so it did not disentigrate the entire ham but it did make paste out of most of it. Shoulda brought a camera.
Well the debate rages on. All I know is what I have seen my self and what I have heard from others, mostly over at TFL, who related first hand experiences like the hog and the dog stories.
I will have an opportunity to try it out on some live game this year. RBCD makes a hunting round for 30 06 that produces spectacular results. Because it can be "tuned" to fragment at varying depths the hunting rounds get far inside and explode. No such thing as a shoulder blade shot disentigrating the hollow point before it can create terminal damage.
A fellow here in Colorado zapped an elk last year with an RBCD round and it fell dead right there. He said that in cleaning it the heart lung mass was pulverized into an unrecognizeable goo.
I will be out with my 06 in the late rifle season (November). I am going to bring a camera so I will take pictures and post results. With nearly 400,000 elk in Colorado I am pretty sure I can bag one. I have a herd of over 100 that visits my back yard all winter. Course, I am going down the road a ways to a place I have scouted since last winter.
Until then all I can say is what would we do without different opinions on this board?? It never gets boring around here
I had not revisited this thread for a while. What a picture! Of course you know there is no relationship between cow meat and human meat
If that pic does not make a believer out of anyone, then further discussion is pretty much a waste of bandwidth.
I wrapped my canned ham in a towel so it did not disentigrate the entire ham but it did make paste out of most of it. Shoulda brought a camera.
Well the debate rages on. All I know is what I have seen my self and what I have heard from others, mostly over at TFL, who related first hand experiences like the hog and the dog stories.
I will have an opportunity to try it out on some live game this year. RBCD makes a hunting round for 30 06 that produces spectacular results. Because it can be "tuned" to fragment at varying depths the hunting rounds get far inside and explode. No such thing as a shoulder blade shot disentigrating the hollow point before it can create terminal damage.
A fellow here in Colorado zapped an elk last year with an RBCD round and it fell dead right there. He said that in cleaning it the heart lung mass was pulverized into an unrecognizeable goo.
I will be out with my 06 in the late rifle season (November). I am going to bring a camera so I will take pictures and post results. With nearly 400,000 elk in Colorado I am pretty sure I can bag one. I have a herd of over 100 that visits my back yard all winter. Course, I am going down the road a ways to a place I have scouted since last winter.
Until then all I can say is what would we do without different opinions on this board?? It never gets boring around here
rebbryan
Member
i've heard the same
Jeff OTMG
Member
444, you are in Nevada, one of my states. You don't have to order from me, you can just call up RBCD off the www.rbcd.net website and order it. They will ship it right out to you. I would be VERY interested to know what you think of it. Email me or PM me and let me know what you get.
WARNING: For you guys thinking about hunting with a .50 BMG. YES, I MEAN YOU rebbryan!!! There was a guy in Colorado about two years ago who used a .50 BMG on an elk. He shot it head on. The entire elk was bloodshot, the rump and even the back strap. He evened threatened to sue Roscoe for the $12,000 that his hunt cost him. There was no usable meat. There is a .50 BMG load at about 6000 fps and exceeding 15000 fpe. Think about what that would do to a poor little deer. A .220 Swift or .22-250 is pushing it to do 4000 fps. A half inch wide bullet at 50% higher velocity is devestating.
Well Coltdriver, I guess you will feel well protected if you are ever attacked by a towel wrapped canned ham.
Shawn, I agree that the jello is close, but we try for shots at COM. There are ribs, lungs, heart, muscle between the ribs, and the sternum itself. None of those has the same density between them and I don't know that they have the same density as gelatin and if they do it certainly isn't uniform for 12"-16" like a block of gelatin. Maybe if they took some pork ribs and placed it in front of the jello then fired two shots, one through a rib and one between the ribs, that would be close.
WARNING: For you guys thinking about hunting with a .50 BMG. YES, I MEAN YOU rebbryan!!! There was a guy in Colorado about two years ago who used a .50 BMG on an elk. He shot it head on. The entire elk was bloodshot, the rump and even the back strap. He evened threatened to sue Roscoe for the $12,000 that his hunt cost him. There was no usable meat. There is a .50 BMG load at about 6000 fps and exceeding 15000 fpe. Think about what that would do to a poor little deer. A .220 Swift or .22-250 is pushing it to do 4000 fps. A half inch wide bullet at 50% higher velocity is devestating.
Well Coltdriver, I guess you will feel well protected if you are ever attacked by a towel wrapped canned ham.
Shawn, I agree that the jello is close, but we try for shots at COM. There are ribs, lungs, heart, muscle between the ribs, and the sternum itself. None of those has the same density between them and I don't know that they have the same density as gelatin and if they do it certainly isn't uniform for 12"-16" like a block of gelatin. Maybe if they took some pork ribs and placed it in front of the jello then fired two shots, one through a rib and one between the ribs, that would be close.
Shawn Dodson
Member
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- Dec 28, 2002
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The shear forces of various soft tissues, and their resistance to bullet penetration, is inconsequential compared to the inertial forces involved. Hence the argument that gelatin is homogenous and cannot accurately simulate the inhomogeneities of the human body is false. At velocities above 500 fps, except for bone and lung tissues, the shear forces presented by various soft tissues make no practical difference with regard to projectile terminal mechanical performance. Heavy bone tissue usually increases projectile deformation and decreases penetration. Whereas lung tissue usually decreases projectile deformation and increases penetration (but not by much).
Tests as you suggest as well as autopsy examination show that the effect of human rib bone on terminal performance is insignificant.
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