RCBS Pro2000 making ammunition for S&W Model 52

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mikemyers

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I bought a like-new S&W Model 52-2 (38 Special) over the past weekend, and am now switching over my RCBS Pro-2000 press from 45 ACP to 38 Special.

I already purchased a 3-die set of RCBS 38/357 Carbide dies. I read the die instructions twice, until they mostly made sense to me. Among other things they say:
Screw the Sizer Die into the press until the die touches the top of the Shell Holder when the Shell Holder is brought up to the top of the press stroke. Tighten the die Lock-Ring. DO NOT CAM-OVER on a carbide sizing die.
I wasn't sure about this, as the die mounting plate moves up and down, and to be sure as to what I need to do, I called RCBS and ended up speaking with Larry Meyer.

Larry told me several new things. First, that the wording in the instructions is for older dies. The new RCBS Carbide dies are protected from damage now, so the warning is no longer worded correctly. (Larry explained the changes, but I don't think I could properly explain that here....)

I asked Larry what to do about the die holder in the press - when the die hits, the die holder moves upwards, as it's just "floating" in its mounting slot on the press.

Larry told me to raise the shell holder all the way, handle all the way down, then screw in the die until it hits the shell plate, then keep on going until the die holder moves up to take up the play, and to continue screwing the die in until all the spring-space in the shell holder is taken up. At that point, I was to lock the die in place.


During the discussion, I told Larry about my gun, a S&W Model 52. He used to own one himself (now he uses a Clark). He told me that after seating the bullet, it has to be pressed slightly into the shell casing, not flush with the end, and to use a very small amount of crimp. He asked me which bullet seating parts I had - which are the stock ones that come with the die kit. Larry told me that the seating part needs to be modified slightly to work best for an M52. He told me he will modify one tomorrow and send it to me.

I'll take a photo of the new part when it arrives, and post it here.

I have a feeling most of you guys already know all of this backwards and forwards, and I'm just playing "catch-up". I'm posting this anyway, in case it might help someone else.
 
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The Model 52 is one of my "Holy Grails". You should have fun with it.

Not an expert on loading for it but I understand it has some nuances different than normal wadcutter loads.

Have fun with it. I'm jealous.
 
I love my RCBS Pro 2K and I have loaded thousands of rounds with it. One of the things I really like is that I can see every part of the loading stage. I choose powders that I can see from a high chair so I have never had a problem with too much powder.
 
Interesting, informative post, Mike. Thanks!

My only .357 is a Ruger Security Six......and I haven't got it set up on the pro 2000 yet........probably because I don't shoot it as often as my carry guns anymore. Kimber .45ACP and Ruger .40SW.

IOW's for the amount I shoot it....my old Rock Chucker setup is fine. I'm printing your exchange with the RCBS engineer, though, as I do intend to set the progressive up for it. I got the case and bullet feeders working for it, but I haven't properly up a die plate plate yet for what I want to load. So this may come in handy for things to look for.:)
 
There was a typo in the original post. The die hits the shell PLATE, and the springiness in the shell PLATE needs to be taken up, along with the "movement of the die plate", and those things are needed so the full length of the shell is resized.

I haven't finished setting everything up yet (can't until I get some bullets) but the expansion die is also changed. Mine came with a "stepped expander". It expands the top part of the shell, and also adds the tapered expansion at the very end, to make it easier to insert a bullet. Fascinating!
 
Hmmm, maybe I ought to advertise my old RCBS dies, get a few bucks for them towards buying a new generation version.....:cool: Didn't know this.

Now I understand what the current thread about Hornady vs. RCBS expander dies is all about......was thinking I missed something....and I did. Powder-thru expanders put in station two under the Powder measure is a totally different animal...........NOW I see ... said the blind man. New step expansion INSIDE the #2 dies....ahhh.

So am I seeing another use for the extra stations on the new seven station press????:D
 
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Sounds like you are complicating sizing. Personally, I shoot unsized cases in my M52s. The force of the slide is enough to chamber the rounds. If I was to size the cases at all, it would be with the Lee .38 FCD, with crimp parts removed. Shooting sized vs. unsized cases was the difference between 2.5" at 25 yards and 1.0" at 25 yards.
I never "cam over," but I do take all slop out. For me, just screwing the die down to the shell plate will take out the shell holder (hold the handle down so the shell plate doesn't move down) and tool head slop. Before you tighten the lock ring, be sure there is a case in the die to align the die with the shell plate.
Other finding loading the M52:
1) most accurate bullet is the Remington 148gn L-HBWC. It is far-and-away the most accurate in my M52s (have not tested Zero or Magnus. Any wadcutter besides the HBWC is worthless and good for 2.5-5.0" at 25 yards.
2) AA2 and 231/HP38 are excellent. Bullseye is traditional powder, but I didn't have any several years ago. I have some now, but medical conditions are keeping me from shooting.
3) DO NOT exceed 800fps. The bullet skirt will separate from the rest of the bullet and you'll either get two holes in the target or you'll have a barrel obsruction. Pressure is so low all you'll generally get is a bulged barrel, but is means finding a new barrel.
4) All the roll crimp you want is just enough so the case mouth or bullet do not contact the feed ramp. Best crimp die I found was the Redding Profile Crimp Die.
5) Measure the bullet diameter, seat and crimp, pull the bullet, and compare to the pre-seated diameter. There should be no change (or no more than 0.001"). This is one reason, I think, that unsized cases are so much more accurate than sizing cases.
 
Here is a thread from another forum (SE) on the M 52

Although it goes against my not trimming handgun brass, ;)
You do need to trim the 38 special brass to the same trim to length in order to have trouble free shooting,

I keep a separate "stash" of special brass, all the same headstamp and all trimmed and marked.

The bullet should be just flush with a very slight roll crimp over the edge or it will hang up.

Remington bullets are near impossible to find but I find the Hornady 148 DEWC work as well or better.

Not knowing what 52 you purchased is it a -1 or a -2?? regardless I would buy new mag springs and new recoil spring if it is unknown when or if they were replaced.

You can dry test the gun with unloaded SIZED brass in the mags, if it does not feed especially the last round then a new mag spring will probably solve the issue.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/102788-model-52-loads.html
 
I assume this is what you meant:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/287589/hornady-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-148-grain-lead-hollow-base-wadcutter-box-of-250


Dry-test -- if I test as you suggested, without the crimp at the end of an empty shell, won't that prevent them from feeding?


The gun is an M52-2, and came with the two magazines it was sold with originally, and two more new ones, in the original shipping packaging.


Trimming brass - I guess while I'm waiting for bullets, I can measure the lengths of the shells.


I'm off to read the thread you posted. Thanx!
 
Sounds like you are complicating sizing. Personally, I shoot unsized cases in my M52s. The force of the slide is enough to chamber the rounds. If I was to size the cases at all, it would be with the Lee .38 FCD, with crimp parts removed. Shooting sized vs. unsized cases was the difference between 2.5" at 25 yards and 1.0" at 25 yards.

I never "cam over," but I do take all slop out. For me, just screwing the die down to the shell plate will take out the shell holder (hold the handle down so the shell plate doesn't move down) and tool head slop. Before you tighten the lock ring, be sure there is a case in the die to align the die with the shell plate.

Other finding loading the M52:

1) most accurate bullet is the Remington 148gn L-HBWC. It is far-and-away the most accurate in my M52s (have not tested Zero or Magnus. Any wadcutter besides the HBWC is worthless and good for 2.5-5.0" at 25 yards.

2) AA2 and 231/HP38 are excellent. Bullseye is traditional powder, but I didn't have any several years ago. I have some now, but medical conditions are keeping me from shooting.

3) DO NOT exceed 800fps. The bullet skirt will separate from the rest of the bullet and you'll either get two holes in the target or you'll have a barrel obsruction. Pressure is so low all you'll generally get is a bulged barrel, but is means finding a new barrel.

4) All the roll crimp you want is just enough so the case mouth or bullet do not contact the feed ramp. Best crimp die I found was the Redding Profile Crimp Die.

5) Measure the bullet diameter, seat and crimp, pull the bullet, and compare to the pre-seated diameter. There should be no change (or no more than 0.001"). This is one reason, I think, that unsized cases are so much more accurate than sizing cases.


Close to my experience, though I prefer to size as normal. I use the zero HBWC, they are very consistent and shoot very well. AA#2 is my go to powder for those loads, bullseye may be traditional but it's not as good IMO.
 
I assume this is what you meant:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/287589/hornady-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-148-grain-lead-hollow-base-wadcutter-box-of-250


Dry-test -- if I test as you suggested, without the crimp at the end of an empty shell, won't that prevent them from feeding?


The gun is an M52-2, and came with the two magazines it was sold with originally, and two more new ones, in the original shipping packaging.



Trimming brass - I guess while I'm waiting for bullets, I can measure the lengths of the shells.


I'm off to read the thread you posted. Thanx!

Those MAGS are EXPENSIVE!!!!

It will feed empty sized brass, just did it a few days ago.

Plus I load them with regular ordinary, inexpensive LEE dies.:D
 
I'll try the original magazines first, that came with the gun. If I need to, I'll open up one of the two new ones.

Just curious - does anyone make new magazines for the M52?

I assume what you want me to do, is load up a magazine with five empty shells, that have already been fired, and haven't yet been re-sized (so they simulate fired ammunition) and cycle them through the gun? My best ones are 200 Fiochi 38 Special cases, originally sold as 138 GRS FMJ. Length is mostly 1.146 to 1.147 inch.
 
I'll try the original magazines first, that came with the gun. If I need to, I'll open up one of the two new ones.

Just curious - does anyone make new magazines for the M52?

[B]NO Used ones are over $150!!![/B]

I assume what you want me to do, is load up a magazine with five empty shells, that have already been fired, and haven't yet been re-sized (so they simulate fired ammunition) and cycle them through the gun? My best ones are 200 Fiochi 38 Special cases, originally sold as 138 GRS FMJ. Length is mostly 1.146 to 1.147 inch.

No take fired cases and RESIZE them then try them in the mag and rack the slide and let it fly forward, repeat. Only holds 5.

Sized brass should be at 1.150 or so, If longer, trim them Should only need to do this once.

I had a mag with a weak spring, would not chamber the last round, bought a new spring from Wolff and works perfect now,
 
Thanks; none of my brass is that long... well, at least none of the 25 cases I've already checked. I'll spend an evening and check all of them before I start loading.

They all will get re-sized - am waiting for the modified tool to seat these bullets, which the technician at RCBS is making for me. He used to shoot the Model 52, and knows what needs to be done.

I'll take a photo of the tool when it arrives, and post it here.
 
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