Re-thinking tactics with age.

[Carl Levitian]

Okay, its been 48 hours or so since the great showdown at the bagel store. In that time, there's been a lot going through my head.

People are always saying a knife should be felt before seen. Maybe so, in some cases. But I've been thinking about that.

Twice in the last year and a half I've been in a jam, and both times a knife in the open right there in my hand made the other people back off. The other day it was daddy the barbarian. Last year it was a couple of street punks who wanted my wallet and cell phone. Yelled at me to give it up. My blackthorn stick was in the car because I was picking up a Tiffanie lamp from a repair place, and knowing my hands would be full carrying Karen's antique lamp, I left the cane in the car. All I had was a Buck Hartsook. Yes, a tiny Buck Hartsook. I was so mad at myself for being caught like that flat footed, I got a bit irate and pulled out he Hartsook and used some very harsh language on the young punks. Told them on no uncertain terms I was going to cut their blankety blank throats if they didn't get out of my way. They hesitated, then ran off.

Now I wonder. Isn't the best fight to win the one where there is no fight?

If a fight can be avoided by showing that your ready to defend yourself, really ready, would that work most of the time? Kind of like the MAD principle that kept the USSR and us from attacking each other. It's betting on the fact that most people don't want a fight, they just want your money, or something. But if they know it means getting cut or stabbed, how solid is their resolve?

I also wonder if these kind of bully/strong arm incidents are more prevalent in non-ccw states, where the criminal can pretty safely presume that you are unarmed. Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Wisconsin, California, and a few other states don't permit ccw.

I've always loved a nice piece of hardwood, but maybe my faith is a little shaken. At my current age, I know I'm no match for a much larger stronger attacker if I use a blunt force tool. But a really sharp knife doesn't need much to cut or stab deep. I remember a case where this little lady was being beat up by her husband when he came home form work. He was a big guy too. Well I guess she got tired of being beaten. The neighbors call the police one night to say they hear her screaming, and he's beating her again. Cops get there, and the guys laying on the floor with a cheap serrated bread knife shoved into his belly almost all the way to the handle. He lived, and she got off on justified self defense. She also left him. But this gal was all of 5 foot 2 or 3, and if she weighted in more than 115 to 120 soaking wet with a roll of quarters in each pocket, I'd be surprised.

I know they say a knife should not be pulled out for intimidation, but I wonder. Yes, if I lived in a ccw state, I'd have a ccw handgun, but I don't. Neither do most other people around here. Or in 12 of the other states of the union. Even the street criminals do a lot of their mugging and robbery with strong arm or a cheap kitchen knife. And a cheap kitchen knife is just what one of the two pucks last year had. One had a knife, the other was a lookout. They both backed off from a yelling old man with a tiny Buck Hartsook in his hand.

So; if it stops a fight before it happens, whats wrong with showing a knife and letting him know your ready and willing to use it, just leave me alone. Go away.

I'm thinking from a senior citizen standpoint. If you let him get too close, and all of a sudden you get rushed, you won't have time to get that knife out, let alone open it. They make a big deal about the 20 foot rule with a man armed with a knife can rush a cop with a holstered gun, and get him. Well then what does that say about not having any weapon out and ready? If the situation looks like something is going to happen, why not have your knife out before you need to grab it in your pocket? Take into account a senior citizen is a little slower on the move.

I'm open to ideas, exploring options.

 

[grumps]

Forgive me if this sounds blunt. In your cane thread you described yourself as68 years old, 5'8", and 160lbs with a 50% disability from your armed service,(thank you for that). It might be different for someone larger no matter the age. If you look like an older, smaller, partially disabled fellow you might be more of a target and showing the knife might make the BG stop and decide to look for easier prey. When the "prey" shows a willingness to defend himself when they were expecting no creditable resistance,especially if they have seen the damage a sharp blade can do...

With your particular size, age, and circumstances, showing a knife and a willingness and competency in its use might change minds as you have seen. They were expecting to just roll over you and be on their way with no problem, you changed the playing field.

 

[plateshooter]

Carl, I am not quite your age, but at 61 and having had a couple heart attacks and being diabetic, I too don't have any ideas that I can wup some bigger, younger guys after me without some help from other weapons. I am only 5'6" and 150 lbs. I do carry a gun when I am not in a gun free zone. At all other times, I keep a folding knife (folded)in my hand whenever I am in a possibly threatening environment. Folded, it makes a good kubotan type weapon, and opened, it is deadly. I took a knife combatives course last summer, and learned that there is a lot you can do if attacked. I also learned that it takes quite a while to heal after one of those classes if you are older I feel confident with my knives. Great last ditch tool.

 

[JShirley]

I see "intimidation factor"- whether with a knife or firearm- as being somewhat similar to pain compliance techniques. They may work.

But I'd never bet on it.

The thing is, if you display your knife, you have no ace up your sleeve. Yeah, it may work. But it may not, and if you're facing someone who's really willing to go the distance, you've given away your trump. They know how to adjust.

And if they have any sense, they'll use something with distance, like a firearm, or at least a stick. And, if the circumstances are not crystal clear, they may get away with shooting you.

 

[James T Thomas]

force on force

Carl:

I agree with another poster that your demeanor had perhaps as much to do with no violence as did the "presentation" of the knife.

In your posts; one, you did not have your cane and in the other, you had the knife -not the cane.

It may be that your conclusions are premature. That if you had your cane in hand, at present arms, then both agressors may have backed down just as they did with the knife confronting them. You just don't know.

Your Blackthorn is certainly not light weight, but how about the cane in the restaurant? A heavy stick, or not?
What I am getting at, is that you might have not felt so vunerable with a hard and massive piece of wood.
Am I wrong here?

You mention your military service.
I feel that using any of my sticks; all dense heavyweigts, as rifle-bayonet
techniques, would handle even those hypertrophied daddys.
No clubbing, hooking, entwining, but just good old butt strokes, slashes,
thrusts and smashes. I would cheat too, Carl; I would put my body weight
behind them. Whew!

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I agree with John to a great extent.
A more aware barbarian might have tried throwing some furniture at you once he saw the knife. You were in a corner and it could have gone very badly for you if he'd had more fighting skill between his ears.

The truth is that there's no way to know for sure and every situation is different.

I like the idea of showing muscles the knife and having his eyes glued to that while my other hand is busy securing something else. No need to only have 1 blade or handheld weapon on yourself or limit yourself by thinking of only 1 strong hand option.
To let him see or not see?
You can do both or neither or either if it suits you.

 

[CWL]

Don't think there is just one answer, nor a right answer.

I think the biggest contributor to a non-violent conclusion in both of your recent experiences was the manner that you handled yourself. No begging, no fearful hysteria, just a willingness to give as good as you would get. This probably works with most street criminals and bullies who want a cheap & easy score against a weakling. Too much to lose makes it no-longer worthwhile.

In your situation, how about a nice big companion dog to go everywhere with you? Something big enough and smart enough to stay at your side and for BGs to not want to mess with?

 

[Phydeaux642]

Every situation will be different. You had the right tool at the right time for the right bonehead giving you trouble. Another day may have put you up against a guy that would have just laughed at the knife and gone for it anyway. You just never know.

I will say that I put my mini-Griptilian back in my pocket today. I've been carrying just a SAK. I may also start carrying my cane again. I have one at home, at work and in my car, I just haven't been carrying them. I carry either a 642 or a P32 all of the time, but who knows what I would need if I found myself in a bad situation. The more in the toolbox the better.

 

[Gordon]

At 64 I used to be 5' 11" and around 200, but have become 5;10" (maybe) and 225 these last 5 years since my knees gave out and I stopped Mtn. biking with the young guys. I DO still work on trucks and equiptment for a living so work hard enough to survive. Until the last few years I was not in fear of many men as I could pound most if needed. Nowadays I realize a young un has me whupped if I get into it and he gets lucky. Course I have my BRAIN so prolly WON"T get into it, but if actually assaulted by a Troglydite then opened pertiniums (or pounding with a 32 oz hammer ect.)when grabbed does seem an option if I am not carrying which is almost never.

 

[glistam]

I think this goes beyond age and there can be other factors.

I don't think there is a "right" answer to this, but I have to admit I was always an advocate for stopping an altercation before it starts, and this philosophy has been with me since childhood. I have drawn both knives and batons on adversaries, and I have never had to hit or cut anyone.

When I was a teen, I was at a summer camp. Another boy who probably had a foot and a half on me decided his new hobby was to slap the back of my head whenever he felt like it. In retrospect he might not have meant much by it, but assault is assault and well, it really hurt. Eventually I got sick of it, pulled out a trowel-like fixed blade I carried (it's meant for food prep) and just shouted "Touch me again and I will CUT YOU!" He reacted almost like he didn't believe it, actually started to move towards me. I raised the blade to eye level, lowered into a stance like my granddad taught me. He didn't say anything, just paused, then he left. I got a talking to by one of the counselors, but I was firm on my position: He was physically attacking me, and damned if I'm going to give a criminal a fair fight. I told them "I'm sorry, would you rather we came to blows empty-handed and both had to go the ER? This was over with no one being hurt." They clearly weren't happy with my philosophy on the matter, but ultimately I did not face any disciplinary action.

I can't help but think that if you kept a knife hidden, you would be trying take them by surprise with it. There is merit to this kind of thing, my people call this Indraga mano. But hasn't it already pointed out that knives, while lethal, do not have much stopping power? A surprise slash or stab isn't worth much if they never feel it. Yes, sometimes they do, but sometimes they don't even notice until 10 minutes later. Just as sometimes they stop at the sight of the blade and sometimes they may not.

 

[7X57chilmau]

In both situations Carl is speaking of here, he was not facing determined foes. A pair of young-uns out looking for an easy dollar, and some roid monkey tryna be the big man. Neither opponent NEEDED to attack - they were attacks of convenience. This is why they decided against following thru when presented with a modest blade, I think.

In most SD situations, I believe this is the level of determination we will generally face. Attacks of convenience. And those, I think, will be thwarted with any credible display of non-compliance that threatens probable injury to the aggressor.

It's not likely to work if the attacker is actually determined, and has a real stake in the exchange to begin with.... When the attacker has some proverbial wall against his back. Unfortunately, we, the defenders, will not know if that's the case or not... Until he fails to back down.

I'd bet that 9x out of 10, ANY credible defense display will thwart such a casual attack. Both these situations were defused during the "interview" phase. Certainly, the latest interview progressed much further... but the actual attack never proceeded. There was no motivation to match the perceived risks to the attacker.

I think the take-home lesson here still has to revolve around the basics: It's not the weapon/tool you're carrying that makes the defense credible. It's the mindset and resolve of the defender.

Situational awareness.
Resolve.
Communication of resolve.
Willingness to follow thru.

These are more important than the tools in your hand.

J

 

[meef]

A long time ago when I was a very young teen and was walking around the neighborhood collecting the weekly fee for my newspaper route, a car with three other kids somewhat older than me pulled up. One of them got out and said, "Wanna fight"?

The other two were grinning in that teenager way and clearly looking for some easy entertainment.

I reached into my jeans pocket and pulled out a church key, held it down by my side and said, "Sure, let's go."

The guy who had gotten out of the car stood there for a second with this look on his face that indicated the wheels were turning furiously in his head calculating the sudden change in the situation, then decided that they had pressing business elsewhere.

He mumbled something, got back in the car and spoke to his buddies and off they went.

Just a small example of how the display of a weapon (and a pretty piss poor one against potentially three opponents) and the clear determination to use it can sometimes deter a situation if the other side isn't really committed to it or finds that their disparity of force isn't quite as disparate as they'd like.

At least it worked in this situation, and that's all that mattered to me at the time.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"The guy who had gotten out of the car stood there for a second with this look on his face that indicated the wheels were turning furiously in his head calculating the sudden change in the situation, then decided that they had pressing business elsewhere."


Meef, that's kind of exactly the thing I'm talking about.

I think there are a lot of would be attackers that are basicly a bully. Out there looking to make themselves feel big and important by stomping on someone lesser than them on the food chain. Looking for the easy mark. I'm sure you all knew one at school.

For the last 40 years that I've been a life member of the N.R.A., every month when I get the American Rifleman I turn first to my favortite part; the Armed Citizen page. For all of that 40 years. I've read where most of the time the mere presence of a firearm stops the crime. Now I don't go around getting in trouble, in fact given that I can number on one hand the trouble I've had in all my 69 years, I do a good job of staying out of trouble.

But, since I've got the far side of 65, I've had to pull a weapon twice. Being in Maryland, that meant a knife. On both occasions it stopped what was going down. I believe I was targeted because of my age and likey that I was an easy target. When it became obvious I was not going to be an easy target, the would be attacker stopped. They were not willing to face the chance of grievous injury or even death. People do die from stab wounds, and they just didn't thik I was worth it.

I think 7X57 made a great point of what he called " attacks of conveniennce".

They have a senerio all worked out in thier own mind of what they are going to do to you, and how they are going to do it. When you derail that mental plan, they don't seem to be able to deal with it, and you no longer are a convenient target for them. That big guy came to that Paneria with the idea in his mind that he was going to bully some guy. When all of a sudden it looked like the target was going to do him serious harm, he stalled, not knowing what to do. Just stood there, and then even telling me to put the knife down and fight like a man. He only wanted to do it according to his plan. I was being very inconvenient for him.

I don't know, maybe life is too fluid and changing for rules, and you just have to play it as it comes. Maybe never make rules.

 

[Kingcreek]

JShirley is right on the mark.
and this:

I don't know, maybe life is too fluid and changing for rules, and you just have to play it as it comes. Maybe never make rules.

should be gospel.

I prefer a knife that is fixed blade, small to medium in size, sharp as a freakkin razor, and unobtrusive enough that nobody has a bug-eyed fit if they happen to see it on my hip.

 

[Coyote3855]

Carl,

Thank you for your posts. Your comments and conclusions are always well reasoned and appropriate. Since I am 65 years, 5'7" and 150 pounds, I have some understanding for your situation. I regularly carry a CCW, a stout lockback and recently either a good blackthorn or a heavy stock cane. I have never, thank the powers, had to use or display a weapon in a self defense situation.

I want to comment on the options some have suggested in this post or the original.

Re drawing a firearm on the idiot in the coffee shop (I understand this is not an option in your state). I suspect the responding officers might have reacted differently to a tactical .45 than to your Opinel. And the aggressor might have, in the presence of his adoring family, challenged you to shoot him and continued to advance? Who knows? Would it have been a good thing to start a gun fight in Paneria?

As for hiding the knife until you could cut him, I can only judge by the results. The situation did not escalate to the point some one was injured. The sight of the knife stopped him. The cops accurately read the situation and correctly identified the aggressor. What's not to like.

I suspect that many opinions expressed on this forum are from people, myself included, who have never been this type of situation.

The most impressive aspect of this situation is that you stayed calm but totally aware throughout the incident.

I hope, if ever in your shoes, I could do as well.

Thanks again for sharing your insights.

 

[JShirley]

To be clear, I'm a similar size- about 5'6", and maybe 155. I know I used a red training ASP some years ago to destroy a very large, determined training partner who had a red knife. A full-sized knife, not a pocket knife-sized one. A cane would have made it even easier.

 

[Gunfighter123]

As I posted in Carls other thread ---- most times , the display of a weapon and the will to use it will stop a " large percentage " of street scum.

However , I also agree with John that you are " showing your ace in the hole " and that is not a good thing .

Almost all "thugs" will think nothing of getting a punch to the face , kick to the shins/groin etc. --- it is a badge of honor to them to get a little "combat wound " for their Homeys to laugh about.

I posted before of the time I found a guy breaking into cars where I worked --- he was BIG {6'4" - 200lbs.+ } ---- when I confronted him with a 3 foot cut off broom stick -- he laughed and told me " I'll shove that up your asse " as he pulled a fixed blade knife and the fight was on. Now I had taken Tae Kwon Do for 3-4 years , Isshin-Ryu Karate for about 3 years, and Eskrima/Kali for 2 years at the time and knew I could handle myself well. I hit this guy AT LEAST 5 or 6 times in the arm/wrist/hands and he never never dropped the knife , stopped , or even slowed down !!!

I retell the above story to show that even with training and a light weight weapon , things do not always go as planned !!! If I had used a metal ballbat , crow bar , or even a piece of metal rebar , I think I would have got better results ----- wood is good but METAL IS BETTER !!!

To sum it up --- EVERY violent encounter that I've been in is different then the last one.
Try to have a "layered" defense and some type of training to go along with them. And last but not least --- DO NOT pull/show a weapon unless you are REALLY REALLY ready to use itl

 

[Phydeaux642]

I suspect the responding officers might have reacted differently to a tactical .45 than to your Opinal. And the aggressor might have, in the presence of his adoring family, challenged you to shoot him and continued to advance? Who knows? Would it have been a good thing to start a gun fight in Paneria?

That makes me wonder when is the appropriate time to display a handgun? Carl was at a clear disadvantage. One solid hit to the head from a man this large could potentially be lethal. You just never know. I obviously don't know what I would have done, but I am also no match for a 300 pound Goliath. I'm a big guy, but not the good kind of big. I was into martial arts for 6+ years when I was 30 years younger, but it wouldn't do me any good at this point. A display of a weapon would just about be my only choice when threatened by someone that I felt was determined to do me harm.

 

[Todd A]

I suppose every situation will be different. Only you, at that time, can judge whether you show the BG "what is behind door #2". In your case(s) you decided correctly.

All I can say is trust your gut. If you feel the BG is not totally committed, give him an option. If you feel he is, don't let him see the knife till his guts hit the floor.

We were not there, you were. You did good. You finished your bagel, BG got a free ride in the fancy car with the flashing lights, and nobody had to die.

 

[JShirley]

To add on to Gunfighter's comments, weight does definitely make a difference. My favorite impact tools are phenolic rods which look like wood but are considerably heavier (and stronger, for that matter). Heavy, dense woods are good, too.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"And last but not least --- DO NOT pull/show a weapon unless you are REALLY REALLY ready to use itl "


Gunfighter- I was NOT going to let this Golds Gym wonder boy punch me out! YES, I WAS REALLY REALLY GOING TO USE THAT OPINEL!

I'm not about to sit there in a wheel chair drooling for the rest of my life from brain injury being punched out by this clown. I WAS SCARED ENOUGH TO USE IT IF HE GOT WITHIN RANGE OF ME!


This is going to be one of those things that unless you where there, you're not going to understand how I saw it. This guy was huge and he knew it. When he pulled up in his macho suburban commando 4X4 and made a show of getting out and yanking off his warm up jacket and balling it up and throwing it in the car so he could let his big biceps and deltoids be on display, he was all about intimidation. And I freely admit I was intimidated as all h---. I also freely admit if I had two good legs under, I'd have just run out the side door and did a vanishing act. But I don't, so I didn't, and all I had to fall back on was the rattler mode. Coil up, bare my fangs, and let him know on no uncertain terms I'm going to strike if he comes at me. It worked. I had my knife low down tucked in to my right side and there was no way he could get at it without getting bit. And he knew it.

The more I think about it, the more I think the old saying about no showing the knife may be outmoded. A knife has no shock or stopping power. If I had kept it hid, and he came and charged into me punching or grabbing or both, He'd have done very serious damage to me by the time I did it to him. He'd never have felt the blade till I was down, and that's too late to help me.

So I'm showing my so called ace in the hole? So what? I can't figure anything bad about that. Punks, if they are going to rob you, show what they have right off, they don't try to rob you with a threat or a knife if they have a Glock under the coat. Generally in assaults, the assailant will use what he's packing. If he has a gun, he's going to pull his gun. If he's pulling a knife out, it's because he doesn't have a gun to pull. You all are giving more credit to punks of all types than they deserve.

And the gym body builder types don't generally go for guns. This guy was wearing a scant and tight muscle T-shirt and loose nylon warm up pants with an elastic waistband. No place for a weapon. This is the final evolution of the guy you knew in high school who bullied other kids because he was twice their size, so they gave up their lunch money without a fight. In this case, hiding my knife until he actually assaulted me, would have got me killed. But I gave him a choice.

I read someplace that only about a fraction of people bit by a rattle snake dies. It's painful, very unpleasant, and you'll be in a hospital for a day or so, but you won't die. Still, if there's a rattler all coiled up and buzzing, are you going to screw with him to show how brave you are, or are you gonna leave him the heck alone?

Like I said, I'm doing a lot of rethinking of things.

So far in real life, for an old fart that looks like a slightly better trimmed Gandalf the Grey, I'm two for two with the rattler approach.

 

[leadcounsel]

In the eyes of the law, if you're the FIRST to display a weapon you MIGHT have elevated the fist fight to the level of lethal force, and even in you were attacked first, you shift the tables and are NOW THE AGGRESSOR using lethal force; that entitles the other party to defend himself with lethal force.

Now it is heavily fact dependent. In your bagel store confrontation, witnesses and common sense dictate you were not the aggressor. However, what about a different scenario where there are no witnesses and the police have a 'he said, he said' problem.

I think you should try to get your CCW in Maryland. I know it may be difficult, but you have an outstanding argument:
1) DISABLED veteran
2) Been subject to at least 1 bona-fide confrontation/attack by a hulking man

Appeal to your sheriff or whoever the authority is to grant the permit.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Gunfighter- I was NOT going to let this Golds Gym wonder boy punch me out! YES, I WAS REALLY REALLY GOING TO USE THAT OPINEL!

Carl --- I have NO DOUBT you were REALLY REALLY ready to use that Opinel !!! And even more important -- that jerk off knew it also !!!!

My reply above was not aimed at you personally but to the THR readers in general.

One time , when I was much younger and much more foolish then now --- I pulled a weapon on someone and thought I could just "bluff" my way out ---- somehow he knew it and taught me a very painfull life lesson.

But that is a story for another time !!!

 

[JShirley]

I also know someone who got out of a fight with a bully who was about 80 lbs heavier than him by holding his small pocketknife in a way that was visible, but looked like he was trying to conceal it.

Yes, it worked. And I'm glad it did.

Yes, your choice worked. And I'm glad it did.

Would I suggest using this? No. I'm glad it worked for you~ had I been in your shoes, I'm pretty sure I would have stood far enough from the table that I wouldn't be trapped in/by it, leaning on my cane.

If the obvious disparity between nonagressive, physically challenged older gentleman and roid boy wasn't enough to shame him into leaving you alone, his kneecap breaking would have probably worked. Because if roid boy had been truly crazy- as some I've known had been- you would have been facing him with a weapon with virtually no hold-off distance. Knives generally make better ambush weapons than defensive ones.

Again, I'm glad you made it out physically and legally unscathed. But I also don't want to give a false impression to others reading this thread. Keeping threats at a distance is almost always preferred.

John

 

[Gordon]

Last time I shot somebody, and I was an LEO, I was severely censured because some one had a loaded .380 pointed at me and I drew my weapon and fired with no "drop the weapon" spoken !

So today I would avoid the problem any way I could while I get to a safe haven and call help. Only under being physically battered (and I'd be ducking) or a gun pointed would I do what ever to destroy the threat. If I had a knife that would mean it would be felt and not seen.

Yes I have had 2 attempted robberies since going white haired and 'over the hill'; they were settled at the "interview" stage, but I was ready for condition red!