I have a number of .38 Special dummy rounds and mistakes which i disassembled to reuse. They were loaded with Berry's plated bullets. Most show a groove where the bullets were crimped. Some have small areas where the plating was scraped off during removal. Any problem re-using these bullets? Thank you.
Re-using plated bullets?
- Thread starter RM
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You mean all the plating was scaped off, down to bare lead? Not good.
Or you mean there are scratch marks on the plating? OK good.
If they are just scratched up a bit, and if they are concentric and dimensionally correct at 0.357 to 0.358 inches, go ahead and load.
Or you mean there are scratch marks on the plating? OK good.
If they are just scratched up a bit, and if they are concentric and dimensionally correct at 0.357 to 0.358 inches, go ahead and load.
I'd reuse them as if they were new. You won't have any problem with them.
If the plating came off from pulling a bullet, it's definitely not going to stay on there when that bullet hits the forcing cone and rifling. So it really doesn't matter if the plating is intact or not.
Even if the bullets aren't concentric I wouldn't worry about it, so long as it doesn't cause chambering problems. Again, the bullet will get the snot squeezed out of it when it hits the forcing cone.
If the plating came off from pulling a bullet, it's definitely not going to stay on there when that bullet hits the forcing cone and rifling. So it really doesn't matter if the plating is intact or not.
Even if the bullets aren't concentric I wouldn't worry about it, so long as it doesn't cause chambering problems. Again, the bullet will get the snot squeezed out of it when it hits the forcing cone.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Berry strongly suggests that the plating not be cut through with the crimp.
SO it does matter.
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq.aspx?q=13&c=1
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq.aspx?q=14&c=1
Suppose the base cup section of the plating behind the crimp comes off in the forcing cone?
And sticks in the barrel.
Twere it me, I would use them.
But I would keep them segregated from the good bullets that didn't have crimp-cut plating and make sure they all clear the bore.
rc
SO it does matter.
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq.aspx?q=13&c=1
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq.aspx?q=14&c=1
Suppose the base cup section of the plating behind the crimp comes off in the forcing cone?
And sticks in the barrel.
Twere it me, I would use them.
But I would keep them segregated from the good bullets that didn't have crimp-cut plating and make sure they all clear the bore.
rc
I see your point regarding Barry's warnings. I interpreted them differently.
They don't strike me as strong warnings, but relatively weak ones. One of their suggested "causes" for plating separation is obtuse--they say an excessive roll crimp could cause failure, but then say it's because it cuts through the plating.
So is it the roll crimp, or breach of the plating, or both?
I don't think they know. Think of what it would take to prove their theory and get statistically significant results. First, you'd have to create four large batches of bullets:
non crimped bullets/intact plating (control group)
crimped bullets/cut plating
non crimped bullets/cut plating
crimped bullets/intact plating
The sample size would have to be large, too, large enough to experience statistically significant numbers of failures. Perhaps 10,000 in each group (it depends how frequently Barry's has encountered the problem--they said instances of occurrence were "rare"). Then, they'd have to be loaded identically and fired through the same gun. If a particular batch experienced statistically significant failures, it could be attributed to the characteristic unique to that batch.
One thing I do know--the forces applied to a bullet during reloading processes are waaay less then the forces applied to a fired bullet. If the integrity of a bullet can be compromised during normal loading processes, especially to the point where the bullet can fail, then the bullet is crap and shouldn't be used in the first place.
I am inclined to believe Barry's warning is a CYA to cover unlikely, but possible, instances of plating failure that result from typical inconsistencies of the bulk plating process.
They don't strike me as strong warnings, but relatively weak ones. One of their suggested "causes" for plating separation is obtuse--they say an excessive roll crimp could cause failure, but then say it's because it cuts through the plating.
So is it the roll crimp, or breach of the plating, or both?
I don't think they know. Think of what it would take to prove their theory and get statistically significant results. First, you'd have to create four large batches of bullets:
non crimped bullets/intact plating (control group)
crimped bullets/cut plating
non crimped bullets/cut plating
crimped bullets/intact plating
The sample size would have to be large, too, large enough to experience statistically significant numbers of failures. Perhaps 10,000 in each group (it depends how frequently Barry's has encountered the problem--they said instances of occurrence were "rare"). Then, they'd have to be loaded identically and fired through the same gun. If a particular batch experienced statistically significant failures, it could be attributed to the characteristic unique to that batch.
One thing I do know--the forces applied to a bullet during reloading processes are waaay less then the forces applied to a fired bullet. If the integrity of a bullet can be compromised during normal loading processes, especially to the point where the bullet can fail, then the bullet is crap and shouldn't be used in the first place.
I am inclined to believe Barry's warning is a CYA to cover unlikely, but possible, instances of plating failure that result from typical inconsistencies of the bulk plating process.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I believe you are wrong.
Years ago, people swaged half-jacket bullets at home, and Speer offered 3/4 jacket bullets commercially.
These reloaders were interested in high-performance and expansion not possible with the cast lead bullets of the day.
It was a well known fact that they were unsafe to shoot with reduced loads or light loads.
Now, everyone & his dog want light loads that barely get out of the barrel!
The half-jacket could / did cause more bore friction then the lead sticking out the end.
Thus, with light loads, it was possible for the half-jacket to make it part way down the bore, then stick, and the lead core would squirt out of it and continue on it's way hitting the target.
The next shot encountered a bore obstruction from the stuck half jacket.
Speer has recently discontinued those 3/4 jacket bullets, and I have to think it was because folks were light-loading them against Speer's implicit warnings not to do so.
How that relates to a seperated plated jacket is unknown to me, but the possibility is still there.
rc
Years ago, people swaged half-jacket bullets at home, and Speer offered 3/4 jacket bullets commercially.
These reloaders were interested in high-performance and expansion not possible with the cast lead bullets of the day.
It was a well known fact that they were unsafe to shoot with reduced loads or light loads.
Now, everyone & his dog want light loads that barely get out of the barrel!
The half-jacket could / did cause more bore friction then the lead sticking out the end.
Thus, with light loads, it was possible for the half-jacket to make it part way down the bore, then stick, and the lead core would squirt out of it and continue on it's way hitting the target.
The next shot encountered a bore obstruction from the stuck half jacket.
Speer has recently discontinued those 3/4 jacket bullets, and I have to think it was because folks were light-loading them against Speer's implicit warnings not to do so.
How that relates to a seperated plated jacket is unknown to me, but the possibility is still there.
rc
Wrong about what, specifically?
Comparison of half jackets to plated is to compare apples and oranges, by the way. Half jackets rely on a mechanical union between core and jacket. Plated rely on a molecular bond.
If the comparison were identical, wouldn't Barry's be advising people to shoot heavy loads instead of light ones?
If you can damage a bullet by crimping to the point where it experiences an unsafe failure (breakage of the bullet and remnants in the barrel), it is going to fail at some point anyway. That is because the forces imposed on the bullet when it strikes the forcing cone are WAY greater than the forces applied by a crimp die.
If you don't believe me, try crimping on an area of the bullet without a crimp groove. You can crimp until you buckle the case and you won't impose as much of an impression on the bullet as the forcing cone and rifling will.
Comparison of half jackets to plated is to compare apples and oranges, by the way. Half jackets rely on a mechanical union between core and jacket. Plated rely on a molecular bond.
If the comparison were identical, wouldn't Barry's be advising people to shoot heavy loads instead of light ones?
If you can damage a bullet by crimping to the point where it experiences an unsafe failure (breakage of the bullet and remnants in the barrel), it is going to fail at some point anyway. That is because the forces imposed on the bullet when it strikes the forcing cone are WAY greater than the forces applied by a crimp die.
If you don't believe me, try crimping on an area of the bullet without a crimp groove. You can crimp until you buckle the case and you won't impose as much of an impression on the bullet as the forcing cone and rifling will.
1SOW
Member
Don't remember where, but I did read: With plated bullets, damaging the plating 'too deep (?) could cause molten lead to flow in the bbl. "Don't allow the crimp to penetrate the plating---or something like that.
Berry's and two others were mentioned, one had fairly thin plating. Don't remember which. Berry's, Zero,& MG?
Berry's and two others were mentioned, one had fairly thin plating. Don't remember which. Berry's, Zero,& MG?
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
I can't tell how much pressure the crimp die produces, or the pressure the forcing cone produces, but I rulend a bunch of match bullets using just a slight crimp.
It is possible to over crimp and damage plated bullets. It has to be a pretty healthy crimp though, unless there are other factors, like rough/sharp case mouths for one. I deburr and chamfer all my cases that I trim to remove the 90 degree edges, then I tumble them overnight which smooths things up a bit. I only use taper crimps on them. Some folks are having success roll crimping them (it must be a very light one), but I have not.
Damaging the plating can cause accuracy problems, but I just don't see the plating coming off in chunks. It is difficult to get it to release from the lead without really squashing a bullet, like with pliers or something. Occasionally a small portion will separate from the lead, but it will be a very small area.
That said, it is something to be aware of, so be careful with crimps etc, and do not damage the plating for best results. I have done so testing things, and I shot the bullets anyway, doing like rcmodel suggested, making sure each one left the barrel, which they did.
Also remember, when you damage the plating to show lead, you now have lead screaming down your barrel with no lube, which will lead the barrel some.
Damaging the plating can cause accuracy problems, but I just don't see the plating coming off in chunks. It is difficult to get it to release from the lead without really squashing a bullet, like with pliers or something. Occasionally a small portion will separate from the lead, but it will be a very small area.
That said, it is something to be aware of, so be careful with crimps etc, and do not damage the plating for best results. I have done so testing things, and I shot the bullets anyway, doing like rcmodel suggested, making sure each one left the barrel, which they did.
Also remember, when you damage the plating to show lead, you now have lead screaming down your barrel with no lube, which will lead the barrel some.
Just because the plating is damaged doesn't mean the bullet is trashed.
Handgun bullets aren't all that finicky. They've got to be pretty screwed up to affect shooting all that much. Even rifle bullets can often be damaged quite severely and still not affect accuracy. In 1992, Gary Sciuchetti, an American Rifleman contributor, performed a study where he intentionally damaged bullets in various ways to see how accuracy was affected. He was very scientific in his study. He used soft points, round noses, and hollow pointed rifle bullets and dropped them through a long tube (8 feet long, if I remember correctly) onto a steel plate. He would angle the plate at 90 degrees and 45 degrees to deform the noses consistently. The noses were VERY smashed.
He was surprised by his results, as was I. There was little or no statistical difference in the accuracy of each batch of bullets. Fired through the same gun, with the same load, the accuracy results were consistent. I'm not saying that this will always be the case, but I am saying that minor imperfections, especially cosmetic ones, are very unlikely to affect bullet performance and even less likely to cause a bullet failure (like the bullet coming apart in the barrel).
My point with all this discussion is this--if you think a bullet doesn't take an absolute pounding after it's fired, you're fooling yourself. More stress is placed on a fired bullet than will EVER be placed on it during the reloading process.
I once tried to slug a barrel with what I thought was pure lead slug, but was actually wheel weights. I had to pound that slug through the barrel with a 5 lb sledge. It took a number of very hard hits to finally get it through. Even slugging with pure lead takes a couple good, solid hits. And all this effort only represents the energy required to push the bullet through the barrel.
Just the barrel pressure of a 38 Special is enough to obturate a bullet. By the time the bullet slams into the forcing cone (where it gets squashed down .001 inch or so) and is cut on all sides by rifling, do you think some scratches in the plating are going to make a difference? If the plating can be scratched off so easily during the loading process, do you think it's going to stay on the bullet in the barrel?
I believe plating comes off lead bullets when it hasn't properly bonded to the lead. I would imagine it's difficult if not impossible to ensure that EVERY bullet is completely clean, and does not get contaminated by something between the cleaning tank and the electrolyte tank. A bit of moisture, a fingerprint, a drop of oil off a piece of machinery, etc could compromise the bond and cause plating failure under the stressful conditions after firing.
If a bullet manufacturer wants to claim that crimping could cause their plating to come off causing the unsafe condition of plating remnants in the bore, and conversely elimination of crimping prevents the problem from occurring, they should be able to back it up with hard data. I'd like to see their study that backs it up.
Handgun bullets aren't all that finicky. They've got to be pretty screwed up to affect shooting all that much. Even rifle bullets can often be damaged quite severely and still not affect accuracy. In 1992, Gary Sciuchetti, an American Rifleman contributor, performed a study where he intentionally damaged bullets in various ways to see how accuracy was affected. He was very scientific in his study. He used soft points, round noses, and hollow pointed rifle bullets and dropped them through a long tube (8 feet long, if I remember correctly) onto a steel plate. He would angle the plate at 90 degrees and 45 degrees to deform the noses consistently. The noses were VERY smashed.
He was surprised by his results, as was I. There was little or no statistical difference in the accuracy of each batch of bullets. Fired through the same gun, with the same load, the accuracy results were consistent. I'm not saying that this will always be the case, but I am saying that minor imperfections, especially cosmetic ones, are very unlikely to affect bullet performance and even less likely to cause a bullet failure (like the bullet coming apart in the barrel).
My point with all this discussion is this--if you think a bullet doesn't take an absolute pounding after it's fired, you're fooling yourself. More stress is placed on a fired bullet than will EVER be placed on it during the reloading process.
I once tried to slug a barrel with what I thought was pure lead slug, but was actually wheel weights. I had to pound that slug through the barrel with a 5 lb sledge. It took a number of very hard hits to finally get it through. Even slugging with pure lead takes a couple good, solid hits. And all this effort only represents the energy required to push the bullet through the barrel.
Just the barrel pressure of a 38 Special is enough to obturate a bullet. By the time the bullet slams into the forcing cone (where it gets squashed down .001 inch or so) and is cut on all sides by rifling, do you think some scratches in the plating are going to make a difference? If the plating can be scratched off so easily during the loading process, do you think it's going to stay on the bullet in the barrel?
I believe plating comes off lead bullets when it hasn't properly bonded to the lead. I would imagine it's difficult if not impossible to ensure that EVERY bullet is completely clean, and does not get contaminated by something between the cleaning tank and the electrolyte tank. A bit of moisture, a fingerprint, a drop of oil off a piece of machinery, etc could compromise the bond and cause plating failure under the stressful conditions after firing.
If a bullet manufacturer wants to claim that crimping could cause their plating to come off causing the unsafe condition of plating remnants in the bore, and conversely elimination of crimping prevents the problem from occurring, they should be able to back it up with hard data. I'd like to see their study that backs it up.
1SOW
Member
]liljohn
I'm new to reloading.
Do you think there is a difference between squeezing/compressing the plating and "scratching" through it to expose lead?
"I'm new to reloading. Do you think there is a difference between squeezing/compressing the plating and "scratching" through it to expose lead?"
Difference in regard to what? It is different, but I would suggest the squeezing and compressing caused by the forcing cone imposes WAY more stress on the plating than crimping, or even blatant scratching.
I've never seen a really smooth forcing cone. Also, bullets jump from the case to the forcing cone, so they are already doing a LEAST 300 to 400 FPS when they slam into it. Regardless of how smooth the forcing cone is, when you hit it that hard it's not gently swaging the bullet--it's throttling the snot out of that bullet.
I believe that if the plating is going to come off, it will do so because it didn't form a proper bond with the base metal. And you are not going to know this until the bullet impacts the forcing cone--the point where the greatest stresses and physical abuse are experienced by the bullet between loading bench and target impact.
Will a scratch on the bullet, or even a gouge, cause the plating to fail upon firing? Or, will a cut in the plating caused by crimping cause the plating on the shank of the bullet to separate? I don't see how it could. If the plating is so weak it cannot maintain integrity during crimping, does it have the integrity to withstand hitting the forcing cone? If the plating were that weak, and that poorly bonded to the core, it would strip off upon forcing cone impact--regardless of whether it was cut by the crimp process or not.
And that is what I think happens when plating separates--it's not due to any reloading process, but simply a failure of the plating caused by an occasional, but not entirely preventable, failure during manufacture. By the way, this type of failure will LOOK like the plating got stuck in the barrel and not the forcing cone because barrel pressure pushes plating remnants into the barrel from the forcing cone.
Incidentally, that's why you don't want to load plated bullets too hot. It will cause greater obturation of the bullet, and also increases the velocity at which the bullet strikes the forcing cone. With a hot load, you have a bullet with a larger, obturated base hitting the forcing cone at 30% greater velocity--it could very well strip the plating right off the obturated base of the bullet.
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