Real SHTF scenario Would you loot if you were stuck in NO with no food or water ?
- Thread starter Master Blaster
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If memory serves
America, Canada, Australia, amoung others were colonized by people coming here from a country, can anyone say england, where people were thrown in jail and deported for stealing a loaf of bread. America has a long history of saying that while it is morally appropriate to shoot a horse thief, shooting a man who is stealing a loaf of bread is morally wrong unless it is threatening your survival.
I have long believed that in a desperate situation, pick your favorite blizzard, tornado, hurricane, flood, whatever, that it is quite appropriate for someone to break into another's home (if they aren't home) to survive. Eat the food, put on warm clothes, whatever it takes to survive and I as a non-church going christian will forgive that individual his tresspass for he is only taking what I would freely give if I were there. However, if that individual takes one thing that he doesn't need for his immediate survival he can be shoot.
Common courtesy would then demand that individual to leave a note saying sorry for the window but it was a survival situation and offer to pay. But, I wouldn't require it.
And in response to the question then yes, I would loot things necessary for survival, but I wouldn't take anything else.
America, Canada, Australia, amoung others were colonized by people coming here from a country, can anyone say england, where people were thrown in jail and deported for stealing a loaf of bread. America has a long history of saying that while it is morally appropriate to shoot a horse thief, shooting a man who is stealing a loaf of bread is morally wrong unless it is threatening your survival.
I have long believed that in a desperate situation, pick your favorite blizzard, tornado, hurricane, flood, whatever, that it is quite appropriate for someone to break into another's home (if they aren't home) to survive. Eat the food, put on warm clothes, whatever it takes to survive and I as a non-church going christian will forgive that individual his tresspass for he is only taking what I would freely give if I were there. However, if that individual takes one thing that he doesn't need for his immediate survival he can be shoot.
Common courtesy would then demand that individual to leave a note saying sorry for the window but it was a survival situation and offer to pay. But, I wouldn't require it.
And in response to the question then yes, I would loot things necessary for survival, but I wouldn't take anything else.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
For me, the thread begins with an invalid premise, for I would have evacuated.
If I lived in such a hazardous location, I'd not live on ground level, but in an upstairs residence above flood height.
I'd have prepped for a long stay, with self-sufficiency in mind in the event of this sort of event--although tis is of greater magnitude than I'd have expected.
Water would be my primary concern. I've always had a month or more worth of food in the pantry.
I'd be defending against looters, not being one.
Art
If I lived in such a hazardous location, I'd not live on ground level, but in an upstairs residence above flood height.
I'd have prepped for a long stay, with self-sufficiency in mind in the event of this sort of event--although tis is of greater magnitude than I'd have expected.
Water would be my primary concern. I've always had a month or more worth of food in the pantry.
I'd be defending against looters, not being one.
Art
joab
Member
I agree, as most here would.
But sometimes when SHTF, S happens
But sometimes when SHTF, S happens
MudPuppy
Member
In this case, sure, the smart ones who could evacuate did so.
What if, you're on vacation away from the supplies you've stored up. And a big SHTF happens without warning. In other words, the question not being "Would you have supplies or evacuate", pretend the game is "Okay, now against all planning, you're now in a situation with no food and no chance to evacuate".
What if, you're on vacation away from the supplies you've stored up. And a big SHTF happens without warning. In other words, the question not being "Would you have supplies or evacuate", pretend the game is "Okay, now against all planning, you're now in a situation with no food and no chance to evacuate".
scout26
Member
Living in Flatland USA, the greatest threats we face are:
1. Tornados: Localized damaged/destruction. Emergency services from non-affected surrounding areas will "fill the void" of those areas affected. (Rather short notice so will probably stay during the event; aftermath ???)
2. Floods: Again localized, unless someone spots Noah collecting two of each animal and building an Ark. (Same as 1 above, while working to sandbag/help control the flooding in my neighborhood.)
3. Earthquake: Yep, the New Madrid fault could cause a lot of problems if it evers decides too. (Again, probably no notice, may not be able to bugout.)
4. Yellowstone Supervolcano: We are all screwed. (can you say Pompeii ???)
Having said that, The Scout26 family has developed two plans: Stay and Go (either west, south or southeast to stay with family, they can also bug-out to Schloss Scout26 if they need). The Bugout kit takes into account that whether you stay or go your needs are pretty much the same (Water, Clothing/Shelter, Security, Food, and Fuel, in that order.)
But as someone so eloquently put it:
"People do not rise to the occasion, they fall back to their level of training."
So yes, I would take water and food if need be, but I would not 'raid' from another family or home (unless abandoned). But you can bet that after the situation returns to something close to "normal" I would be first in line to pay the store/shop owner for what I had taken during the emergency.
1. Tornados: Localized damaged/destruction. Emergency services from non-affected surrounding areas will "fill the void" of those areas affected. (Rather short notice so will probably stay during the event; aftermath ???)
2. Floods: Again localized, unless someone spots Noah collecting two of each animal and building an Ark. (Same as 1 above, while working to sandbag/help control the flooding in my neighborhood.)
3. Earthquake: Yep, the New Madrid fault could cause a lot of problems if it evers decides too. (Again, probably no notice, may not be able to bugout.)
4. Yellowstone Supervolcano: We are all screwed. (can you say Pompeii ???)
Having said that, The Scout26 family has developed two plans: Stay and Go (either west, south or southeast to stay with family, they can also bug-out to Schloss Scout26 if they need). The Bugout kit takes into account that whether you stay or go your needs are pretty much the same (Water, Clothing/Shelter, Security, Food, and Fuel, in that order.)
But as someone so eloquently put it:
"People do not rise to the occasion, they fall back to their level of training."
So yes, I would take water and food if need be, but I would not 'raid' from another family or home (unless abandoned). But you can bet that after the situation returns to something close to "normal" I would be first in line to pay the store/shop owner for what I had taken during the emergency.
CAnnoneer
Member
Looting is burglary, pure and simple.
I would be happy to write IOU notes to a store owner at pre-disaster prices. If he refuse to accept such, I'll politely remind him that 100 looters will be through the store before the emergency is over, so he is better off selling me the goods while he still can. If he still refuses, I'll go to the next store and iterate.
I would be happy to write IOU notes to a store owner at pre-disaster prices. If he refuse to accept such, I'll politely remind him that 100 looters will be through the store before the emergency is over, so he is better off selling me the goods while he still can. If he still refuses, I'll go to the next store and iterate.
Ryder
Member
I shop family groceries a month at a time. Knowing this storm was coming in advance my cupboards would have been full and a half. So 6 weeks worth of good eating but really more like two months due to conserving.
I don't steal, I won't steal, you can't make me steal.
Beyond two months? I studied wild food collection and preparation when I was younger. It was good enough for the indians, it's good enough for me. Wouldn't come to that though. Too much profit potential. The carpet baggers will soon be deeper than the flood waters.
I don't steal, I won't steal, you can't make me steal.
Beyond two months? I studied wild food collection and preparation when I was younger. It was good enough for the indians, it's good enough for me. Wouldn't come to that though. Too much profit potential. The carpet baggers will soon be deeper than the flood waters.
Mulliga
Member
What if the only way to get food and supplies for your family was to loot from other people's families? Would you still do it? Hey, survival is survival, right?
Ben Shepherd
Member
I've thought this situation over because I live 3 miles fron the wasatch fault line here in Utah. If it was as bad as NO seems to be: Mine is mine, and I will defend it. I have food/ammo/gun storage at different places, no "all my eggs in one basket" here.
If you ASK me to share with your kids etc, and I could tell you were in bad shape , maybe. You DEMAND it, it's a whole different matter.
One other thing I have been working on: A handcart, mormon style. No gas needed, no road needed, just me. Limited, yes. But MUCH better than just a backpack for hauling a bunch of stuff.
With myself being single, and in good phisical/mental condition, and no one but me to worry about, It would have to be AWFULLY bad before I would take by force or theft that which wasn't mine.
If you ASK me to share with your kids etc, and I could tell you were in bad shape , maybe. You DEMAND it, it's a whole different matter.
One other thing I have been working on: A handcart, mormon style. No gas needed, no road needed, just me. Limited, yes. But MUCH better than just a backpack for hauling a bunch of stuff.
With myself being single, and in good phisical/mental condition, and no one but me to worry about, It would have to be AWFULLY bad before I would take by force or theft that which wasn't mine.
spartacus2002
Member
Remember, a lot of that perishable foodstuff is going to be written off by the insurers. Would that affect the calculus?
jnojr
Member
This is probably a better question. I'm sure even the holiest holier-than-thou paragons of virtue, if faced with their child starving and a store or abandoned house with food in it, would quickly find a rationale for taking that food. I freely admit I would... I might leave a note, especially for non-perishable stuff, but yeah... I'd "loot" or "steal" or "do what I had to to keep my family from starving".
But taking from someone else? If they had a huge hoard and I had nothing, and they refused to sell to me... I have to admit that, if they weren't armed, I'd probably stop asking and start telling. But, if they weren't armed, I'd first try every other recourse I could think of, like pointing out to them that the next armed guy they say "No" to would be likely to just shoot them dead, and that it would be a great deal for them to let me eat and stand guard duty for them
Taking would be a last resort, after exhausting any other possibilities, like empty stores or houses. But if I could ensure my own survival without putting them at a sudden, significant risk of starvation...dustind
Member
If you have access to a car with an air conditioner and a bit of ingenuity I think you could use that to condense water.
If it is a flood you could try to boil/evaporate then condense some water, or just try to purify it.
I would not steal, but I would be happy to buy or barter for what I needed. If a store or house was abandoned I could see taking food or water in a life or death situation but I would pay more than its value.
If it is a flood you could try to boil/evaporate then condense some water, or just try to purify it.
I would not steal, but I would be happy to buy or barter for what I needed. If a store or house was abandoned I could see taking food or water in a life or death situation but I would pay more than its value.
I don't think that the posters are taking the right factor into account. While everyone is debating the morality of stealing, I'm telling you that you might be dead before anyone considered your "needs." Your family's situation, your own thirst, and your hunger mean nothing to the people that are trying to maintain order in NO. The real question is not whether you would steal to survive (anyone would) - it is whether you are ready to die for the chance to gratify yourself. The civil unrest is fierce down here - you are either on the side of the law or you are no longer regarded. The people I am in contact with from the survival zone did not question whether the looters they came across were survival looters or opportunists - they just shot their way out.
To summarize, who cares what your motives are? In a situation like this, you are wearing the black hat if you are a scumbag looter and may face the consequences of it.
Coincidentally, check out this blog. I worked in this building as recently as May. It seems to be very locally accurate:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/33784.html
To summarize, who cares what your motives are? In a situation like this, you are wearing the black hat if you are a scumbag looter and may face the consequences of it.
Coincidentally, check out this blog. I worked in this building as recently as May. It seems to be very locally accurate:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/33784.html
ctdonath
Member
1. I wouldn't be there. A hurricane gives plenty of warning - for a weekend hit even. "Honey, we're going on vacation this weekend ... leaving NOW." Car, credit card, GPS & mapping software ... find a non-freeway path out ASAP.
2. I wouldn't be there. Given the particular situation, it's pretty clear what's happening right after the storm passed; water is rising and NO is no place to be. In the closet I have an inflatable boat suitable (barely) for getting my family out of such a situation. No boat? something will float. Staying does no good.
3. Bug in. Can't leave? have a month's food in the house. No need to hunt for it.
4. Worst case: away from home, can't leave city, days of hunger setting in? or whatever you want to throw at me to force me into the "would you loot food" question? I would BORROW food - from where clearly the owner won't get to it, and I'll leave money, supplies, or at least an IOU. Upon stabilization & recovery of the situation, I'll return the BORROWED items, with suitable interest.
2. I wouldn't be there. Given the particular situation, it's pretty clear what's happening right after the storm passed; water is rising and NO is no place to be. In the closet I have an inflatable boat suitable (barely) for getting my family out of such a situation. No boat? something will float. Staying does no good.
3. Bug in. Can't leave? have a month's food in the house. No need to hunt for it.
4. Worst case: away from home, can't leave city, days of hunger setting in? or whatever you want to throw at me to force me into the "would you loot food" question? I would BORROW food - from where clearly the owner won't get to it, and I'll leave money, supplies, or at least an IOU. Upon stabilization & recovery of the situation, I'll return the BORROWED items, with suitable interest.
Chris Rhines
Member
I managed to recover two long guns, but no bug-out bag? I'm bright enough to prep for a disaster, but stupid enough to try and ride out a CAT4 hurricane in a sub-sea-level coastal town? Eh.
Answer is: I won't let myself be put into a situation where I may have to steal to survive.
- Chris
Answer is: I won't let myself be put into a situation where I may have to steal to survive.
- Chris
ny32182
Member
That statement cuts both ways.
The title of the thread doesn't say, "what would you do if you were stuck in NO with food and water", like most people seem to think it does. It says, "what would you do if you were stuck in NO *without* food and water". If someone wants to shoot at me for taking some bread or water that I need to live, I'll shoot back. End of story. There *is* no law down there right now. All that matters is what any one person can or can't do, and the drive to survive will trump armchair quarterback morality standards, the pre-disaster law, and everything else all day long and twice on Sunday.
Also, I think the IOU idea is kind of funny. Flood waters there are constantly rising. The IOU's for a can of Campbell's Chicken Noodle and a bottle of Dasani will be long washed away if and when the original owner ever returns.
This is ridiculous. The grocery store owners fully expect their stores to be looted. The food will go bad soon and they are insured anyway. If they could tell you to your face I'm sure most of them would say "help yourself, man, I don't want to see you and your family starve." In fact, I'm sure they would consider you foolish for not taking the food, and perhaps criminally negligent for letting your family suffer for some misplaced sense of honor.
I think most people are missing the idea that you don't have much say in whether you're involved in one of these or not.
This NO incident makes a great example. My wife was there, and got out on the second-to-last plane to leave. She's a new MD (well, she just finished her residency, so while she's had her MD over 3 years she's just now a "real" doctor), and was taking a week-long review course for an ugly test that's only given once per year. When she left there was no inkling that something like this might happen, and while she was there it was 16 hour per day lecture and study sessions.
Not the typical "playtime in New Orleans" kind of trip, though she did find some good food while she was there.
In a situation like this: intelligent woman, professional, working hard on a trip that's been scheduled for 6 months, not watching TV, and the "tropical storm" decides to spin up to a Cat 5 in the 2 days prior to landfall...
There were probably some people taken by surprise. If she hadn't been on a flight out of town that made it (it almost didn't), she would have tried to convince the cabbie to get her out of town ("I'll pay for gas, food, lodging, and we'll take turns driving. move"). If that hadn't worked, she would have been at the rental car counter trying to get out of town. If they were out she would have found a local hospital that would offer her temporary priveleges so she could do something useful. Then she'd be in downtown New Orleans in a children's hospital, taking care of the NICU kids who can't be moved and survive, while surrounded by looting drug-seekers.
My wife got out, but she was almost in the middle of this.
This kind of thing can happen without warning, in a way that minimizes the preparations you've made.
Don't forget it.
QuicksDraw
Member
First, I'd of BO at the first sign of a big storm coming especially if I know I'm on land below sea level. No brainer. But if I woke up... from a coma let's say, and found myself in a NO hospital I'd do what ever I had to for survival.
I would not be looting plasma T.V.'s insured or not. I don't care of the store has written it off. I don't steal.
I will on the other hand scavage for food and water and transportation. If Cabela's of NO had a raft I might test drive it with the full intention of paying for it after I had used it to save my life.
It's like a friggin science fiction movie. I'm sure Hollywood is already working on the treatments. The sense of law broke down too fast for my comfort.
I made a review of my preparedness, C-. I scored low on fuel and food. Water, weapons, ammo, communications, batteries, gas masks, GS filters, Geiger counter, first aid, etc. are all O.K. I will not let my family be put into a situation like we see unfolding if I can at all help it
I would not be looting plasma T.V.'s insured or not. I don't care of the store has written it off. I don't steal.
I will on the other hand scavage for food and water and transportation. If Cabela's of NO had a raft I might test drive it with the full intention of paying for it after I had used it to save my life.
It's like a friggin science fiction movie. I'm sure Hollywood is already working on the treatments. The sense of law broke down too fast for my comfort.
I made a review of my preparedness, C-. I scored low on fuel and food. Water, weapons, ammo, communications, batteries, gas masks, GS filters, Geiger counter, first aid, etc. are all O.K. I will not let my family be put into a situation like we see unfolding if I can at all help it
Sean85746
Member
Wow, what a good question
I grew up on a working horse ranch. As part of that...I learned self reliance, and hard work. My Grandpa was as honest as men come, and always willing to help someone in need.
To him, stealing was as bad as anything else. It was the ultimate form of dishonesty. I was raised to believe and act the same way.
BUT...as honest as I believe I am...if my wife and 17-month old daughter were hungry, and the only means I had to feed them were to loot food...I'd take what was neccessary to survive. I'd hope and pray to God I'd done all I could before I had to go there. I'd hope the canned foods, and MRE's I have saved up were accessible.
But I'd be no kind of man to sit and allow my wife and daughter to suffer. But I'd have to know there was no other way.
When all the hoopla was going on over Y2K...I was still single. I had food for a week, and water for ten days, and certainly enough ammo for longer.
I figured nothing was going to happen, but like having a defensive firearm, it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
I live in Arizona...so flooding here in my area is of little concern, but other attendant problems, such as failure of infrastructure and fuel shortages could cause havoc. To that end, I have supplies in the basement, and am ready for most occurances.
I guess what I am saying is...I'd do what was neccessary to feed my family, but I pray that it's a choice I am never forced to make.
BTW...say a prayer fo those affected, and all the folks going to help.
I grew up on a working horse ranch. As part of that...I learned self reliance, and hard work. My Grandpa was as honest as men come, and always willing to help someone in need.
To him, stealing was as bad as anything else. It was the ultimate form of dishonesty. I was raised to believe and act the same way.
BUT...as honest as I believe I am...if my wife and 17-month old daughter were hungry, and the only means I had to feed them were to loot food...I'd take what was neccessary to survive. I'd hope and pray to God I'd done all I could before I had to go there. I'd hope the canned foods, and MRE's I have saved up were accessible.
But I'd be no kind of man to sit and allow my wife and daughter to suffer. But I'd have to know there was no other way.
When all the hoopla was going on over Y2K...I was still single. I had food for a week, and water for ten days, and certainly enough ammo for longer.
I figured nothing was going to happen, but like having a defensive firearm, it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
I live in Arizona...so flooding here in my area is of little concern, but other attendant problems, such as failure of infrastructure and fuel shortages could cause havoc. To that end, I have supplies in the basement, and am ready for most occurances.
I guess what I am saying is...I'd do what was neccessary to feed my family, but I pray that it's a choice I am never forced to make.
BTW...say a prayer fo those affected, and all the folks going to help.
TearsOfRage
Member
My (non-christian) religion would require me to. Kin are more important than strangers, and I have a duty to care for me and mine.
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