REAL Stopping Power

[Pigoutultra]

I hear regularly about how a bullet that "over-penetrates" is not as good in terms of stopping power as one that dumps all it's "energy" into the subject. It just seems ludicrous to me that anything but wound cavity would matter at all in arguments of "stopping power". Evidence of this is how people who are hit by cars that weigh thousands of pounds moving at 50 mph, certainly these dump much more "energy" into someone than a bullet, yet people still survive. Of course penetration is important, but only in minimum penetration, not "over-penetration". If a bullet penetrates deep enough to damage vital organs then it is effective as long as the wound cavity is sufficient. The only situation where "over-penetration" is a factor is where there is risk of collateral damage. I don't want this tread to be about shot placement either because that has little to do with the type of bullet or the cartridge used. Permanent wound cavity is the most important aspect of stopping power, a .30 Carbine bullet has more "energy" than a .45 ACP, yet the .45 ACP delivers more devastating wounds.

I apologize for going on a rant, I just felt like stirring up a discussion.

P.S. This argument isn't by any means complete, it's just there to get things rolling.

 

[rugerman]

I always felt that it is better to have the bad guy leaking from 2 holes rather than just 1.

 

[Pigoutultra]

That is especially useful in hunting, entry holes don't bleed much but exit holes bleed a lot.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Real stopping power will be the crafty guy that combines a true bullet with a taser-type electro-knockdown. A projectile fast and heavy enough to reliably punch through all clothing and deliver a taser contact into a body for an electrically assisted "knockdown" will have the ultimate in stopping power. Tasers seem to put a guy down very fast, but lack reliable penetration, to the extent that cops won't be giving up their firearms anytime soon to rely solely on the taser.

 

[Pigoutultra]

Well if it's a hostage situation and the criminal has a gun to the head of one of the hostages, I don't think a taser is the best idea, last thing you need is their trigger finger to twitch.

 

[tasco 74]

interesting discussion

how about something i like to call multi-ball loads? i load 2 .32 cal round balls into a .357 mag case with about 4 grs. bullseye...... each time i pull the trigger i get 2 projectiles that never hit the same place on the target... i have no idea how fast they are going as i don't want to kill a chrony.... the whole payload is about 170 gr. i think...................................................

 

[General Geoff]

Evidence of this is how people who are hit by cars that weigh thousands of pounds moving at 50 mph, certainly these dump much more "energy" into someone than a bullet, yet people still survive.

Stopping power ≠ killing power.


Shattering an assailant's pelvis and them collapsing due to lack of bone support between their legs and torso is a definite stop, despite not being lethal. Likewise, a nasty belly shot through the intestines that causes internal bleeding, while probably lethal, does not guarantee stopping the assailant immediately.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I don't want this tread to be about shot placement either because that has little to do with the type of bullet or the cartridge used. Permanent wound cavity is the most important aspect of stopping power

I think you are operating on a false understanding.

Thoughts on stopping an attacker

THE OBJECTIVE: Stop the Bad-guy from doing his bad-thing.

The reality is that there are two aspects to being shot.

1) The Psychological aspect where someone might go "oh Snap, I've been shot" and collapse in panic and terror, or at least run away.
2) The physical aspect of being shot where unavoidable physical response to trauma determines what happens next regardless of attitude or willpower.

The majority of the time a human who gets shot thinks (Psychological) "oh, I've been injured, I don't want that to happen again" and ceases most/all aggressive actions. This is a desired outcome, minimal force and quick capitulation....BUT...those attackers who don't do that (for whatever reason, drugs, psycho, high pain tolerance, adrenalin, distraction, etc.) will ONLY, let me stress that again, ONLY be reliably stopped under all conditions by severe physical trauma in one (or more) of three areas.

1) Central nervous system disruption (brain, spine)...the electrical signals that control the body can no longer be sent.

2) Support structure (skeleton) disjunction...if you break the supporting structure (bones) the muscles have no levers to move the body about.

3) Exsanguination (bleeding out)...If the blood pressure drops below a certain point there is no longer an oxygen supply to the brain and the central nervous system shuts down (going back to #1)

1 and 2 can take place instantly with a good shot, #3 can take ANY amount of time from about 12 seconds (how many times could someone stab you in 12 seconds?) to several hours.

So you see it is all about shot placement. Larger calibers/higher power rounds give you additional latitude but there is nothing, absolutely nothing out there that will stop someone if you don't hit a critical area and by the same token a precision shot to the right spot(s) with a .22LR will drop the biggest, meanest, guy you can imagine.

 

[Haxby]

People get hit by cars going 50 mph and survive?

 

[General Geoff]

People get hit by cars going 50 mph and survive?

Not without extreme injury, and likely complete and immediate incapacitation. Which means a car travelling at 50mph has exceedingly good stopping power.

 

[Old Fuff]

While there is a lot of discussion about “stopping power” relative to various cartridges, the term is usually used in a context of bullet diameter, weight, and construction – along with muzzle velocity and energy. Tests on gelatin blocks are taken as gospel.

Undoubtedly a larger diameter bullet makes a larger primary channel wound, and more velocity has a relationship to deeper penetration, but other factors should also be considered.

Recoil: There is no such thing as a free lunch, and greater recoil – associated with greater cartridge performance – can affect the speed with which additional follow-up shots can be delivered with any expectation that they won’t be a fast miss. This is particularly true if the handgun in question is an extra small or light one. Therefore the cartridge should be carefully matched against the platform it’s going to be used in.

Kinetic Energy: Can make spectacular results in jelly blocks, but the temporary channel that they show doesn’t mean much according to trauma surgeons that often see real bullet wounds in tissue. This observation applies to commonly used handgun ammunition and not rifles. What does serious damage is the primary channel, left by the bullet, and diameter and profile (flat nose vs. round) is noticeable.

Barrel Length: Gunpowder is progressive burning, and as a rule-of-thumb longer barrels produce more velocity then shorter ones – a fact of life many snubby users tend to ignore.

Hollow Point Bullets: Seem to have an unpredictable affect – although they do well in jelly, they don’t always do equally well in tissue. Again surgeons report that they can often tell the difference between wound channels left by large vs. small diameter bullets, but not exactly what did what unless the bullet is recovered.

I suppose all of this goes against the grain of some popular belief, but the Old Fuff is well known on this forum for not always going along with the crowd. Others should feel free to come up with their own opinions.

 

[jerkface11]

Which means a car travelling at 50mph has exceedingly good stopping power.

I've filed for a sporting purpose exemption for my new rifle that shoots smart cars at 65mph. Should be out by the end of the year.

 

[CGOLIVER]

In autosports they say: "Horsepower sells cars but torque wins races".

Here it would be: "Kinetic energy sells ammunitions but wound channel kills".


I suspect kinetic energy is used by manufacturers because it turns out to be such a big number. It's just supposed to look sexy and make the buyer want the product. It does not adequately describe the lethality of the round and they know it.

 

[gamestalker]

First of all, I have to disagree with you about the 30 carbine and 45 ACP wound effect. The .308 bullet traveling at say 2000 fps and that is probably conservative v.s. a 45 ACP pushing 900 fps on a real good day. If they are both shooting hollow points, the 30 carbine loaded with a 110 grain HP and the 45 with a 250 grain HP. The much quicker displacement of tissue by the 30 carbine is going to make a much larger hole in every aspect. And tissue damage is going to be sickening in comparison to the great big feared 45.

I posted about a coyote a I shot many years ago with a 90 grain hollow point at about 250 yds. and it was in every aspect completely blown apart. That is not embellished or exaggerated, it was honestly obliterated and smeared across the under side of the tree it was standing under when I shot it with my .270 win.

On the other hand, the 45 ACP sure isn't going to be much fun to get shot with because it will hit you like a big boulder would at those slower velocities that it shoots at. I think this is where you get the stopping power analogy from and to some degree it has substance to it. But the certain elements of energy in foot pounds come into play that simply can't be argued away, as they are fact, based on physics.

If a bullet is not passing through and through because it is lacking velocity necessary to achieve complete penetration, then it is not only reasonable to think, but rather fact that it's ability to cause a massive wound channel is as limited as, it's depth of penetration. Whereas the higher velocity lighter bullet traveling above subsonic velocity, by about 2 times, may possibly fragment or even explode while penetrating the flesh, but the tissue shock it will create is due to the fact that liquids can not be compressed. A bullet traveling that fast, no matter how light it may be, is going to turn flesh into hamburger.

Another example of high velocity producing energy of epic proportion is well described by what happened when I shot a .610" thick plate steel. I shot it with a little tiny 120 grain soft point .284" bullet. Because the bullet was moving about 3500 fps it pierced nice and clean like, right through that steel plate. But here is the interesting part about the energy it was producing. I placed a 5 gal plastic container full of water behind it so I could retrieve what ever might remain of the projectile. I was blown away at what I found, which was a half sphere solid steel piece that measured almost .503" in diameter. I used a propane torch to remove any lead that may have been present and found absolutely no evidence whatsoever of the original projectile, not one little scrap. The steel half sphere punched into the water container as one nice piece and weighed a hefty 10 grains more than the original 120 grain copper jacketed lead projectile. It was obvious that the projectile became one single wad of molten hot lead and copper with so much energy, that the energy created by the projectile was solely responsible for penetration. It sure wasn't the projectile that came out the other side. The projectile was probably vaporized.

I'm always getting requests to post pics of various things and because I am very limited with my computer skills, I've never been able to provide those pics of neat things like that piece of steel. When I have figured out how to post stuff like pics I will recreate that steel plate thing and post it. What I really want to do is figure out how to use the expensive video equipment my Wife has and post a video of this rather than just a still picture. I forgot to keep up with the world around me as I grew older. But I'm truly going to have my Wife or Sons give me a crash course so I can start enjoying the world of technology, thus sharing some pics with my friends at THR.

But my point was hopefully made regarding energy. Energy of this type is measured by weight and velocity and doesn't get greater by any other means except to increase the weight of the bullet, and or, velocity and is calculated using those two elements in a very definitive manner with the solution termed as, foot pounds of energy.

 

[ChCx2744]

Stopping power??? How about 12 ga express magnum 3" 00 buckshot @ press contact distance...If that ain't stopping power, I dunno what is LOL!

 

[Pigoutultra]

Using effectiveness against coyotes as a model to describe stopping power is flawed. Temporary cavitation has a much greater effect on smaller animals due to their small volume not being able to absorb the impulse as well as a human torso would. I was trying to describe how whether or not a bullet passes completely through or comes to rest just below the skin has the effect many people believe. I was saying how a .30 Carbine, that has about twice the energy of a .45 ACP, does not produce a wounding effect twice that of the .45 ACP. I was just trying to argue that energy has very little to do in wounding characteristics compared to permanent wound cavity and penetration.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The temporary wound cavity created by a handgun bullet will have little meaning in an organism the size of an adult human. Tissue is too elastic and the amount of tissue displaced relative to the overall mass of the organism is too small.

Discounting the psychological effect, which is real but unpredictable and therefore uncertain, what will count in most cases will be the physiological effects of blood loss -- actually loss of blood pressure. A loss of blood pressure is caused by putting holes in organs with large blood supplies. The larger the holes and the greater the number of holes, the faster the blood pressure will drop.

ZeSpectre has it exactly right.

...The reality is that there are two aspects to being shot.

1) The Psychological aspect where someone might go "oh Snap, I've been shot" and collapse in panic and terror, or at least run away.
2) The physical aspect of being shot where unavoidable physical response to trauma determines what happens next regardless of attitude or willpower.

The majority of the time a human who gets shot thinks (Psychological) "oh, I've been injured, I don't want that to happen again" and ceases most/all aggressive actions. This is a desired outcome, minimal force and quick capitulation....BUT...those attackers who don't do that (for whatever reason, drugs, psycho, high pain tolerance, adrenalin, distraction, etc.) will ONLY, let me stress that again, ONLY be reliably stopped under all conditions by severe physical trauma in one (or more) of three areas.

1) Central nervous system disruption (brain, spine)...the electrical signals that control the body can no longer be sent.

2) Support structure (skeleton) disjunction...if you break the supporting structure (bones) the muscles have no levers to move the body about.

[3) Exsanguination (bleeding out)...If the blood pressure drops below a certain point there is no longer an oxygen supply to the brain and the central nervous system shuts down (going back to #1)...

 

[Highcaliber]

Dr Fackler's Prescription to stop the threat... just put large holes into important organs and repeat as needed.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Nice soft HP lead 12 gauge slugs do wonders in ending life of what needs ended.

 

[Manco]

I always felt that it is better to have the bad guy leaking from 2 holes rather than just 1.

People aren't simply bags of blood! As long as something vital got hit, it doesn't matter whether the bleeding is internal or external.

With service handgun calibers, at least, I think that penetration all the way through (and nothing more) is ideal, with as wide a permanent cavity as possible as a secondary consideration. This most likely produces the maximum "stopping" potential for any given caliber, within its limitations. With regard to external ballistics, the most important attribute is momentum rather than energy.

With centerfire rifle calibers, it's far more complicated.

 

[Remo223]

Imagine an extreme example of over penetration:

Small bore FMJ rifle rounds for instance. If those bullets zing clear through a person without hitting nerve, bone, or major blood vessel, the person barely even feels it and it has no effect on their ability to function.

There's a lot more power in a rifle bullet than there is in a handgun bullet. Yet a bullet such as I described isn't very effective compared to...oh say...357magnum jacketed hollowpoint.

 

[Remo223]

This should've been the second part of my comment.

Now let's imagine an extreme example of "stopping power":

A hammer blow from a large heavy hammer has amazing stopping power if applied to someones skull. Now imagine a gunny sack full of hammer heads being swung by hulk hogan with both arms full force at a person's chest/belly. Hard enough to crack lots of ribs.

You get the idea. That person is instantly knocked off his feet and won't be getting back up for awhile. He might even bleed internally and maybe even die without medical attention.

That's knock down power.

Since we can't carry around a firearm that can shoot a bag full of hammer heads we have to make do with something a little smaller and then add speed to make up for the lack of size. Where the perfect balance between mass and speed lies is a debate that will NEVER be settled.

 

[10mm Mike]

People get hit by cars going 50 mph and survive?

Not without extreme injury, and likely complete and immediate incapacitation. Which means a car travelling at 50mph has exceedingly good stopping power.

I once saw a older guy (late 40's/early 50's) get hit by a car going probably 15-20 mph. He flipped at least 15 feet in the air like a rag doll. He survived, and I *think* he was still conscious after it happened but he didn't do any moving other than breathing.

That said, I agree that energy means very little in terms of stopping power. Momentum is a far more important measure, and even that has little relevance to stopping power without other factors being considered with it, imo.

 

[killchain]

Another thing to consider is the trantranferencesference of energy.

I'm not a huge ballistics guru, but I remember some training I had in GFT in the Army. The instructors showed us that striking an opponent is more effective if you leave your blow there to transfer the force. I believe 1/8 of a second was the number.

This makes sense to me in ballistics, because a larger object is able to transfer more force to the target.

But as I said, I am no ballistics guru.

 

[bubbinator]

Tasco74-you sound like an old reloader too. We used Speer Shot Capsules in .38 cal loaded with 3 #1 Buckshot(30cal) over the powder charge listed in an old Gun Digestl. Velocity was 1K+. A cylinder full put 18 holes in a 10" pie plate at 15 yds!