tasco 74
Member
yep bubba been reloading for about 30 years now....... i'm talking about the same thing as you but i get 12 hits with a little heavier projectiles....... i agree you gotta get good hits on the vitals for best effects..........
REAL Stopping Power
- Thread starter Pigoutultra
- Start date
- Status
One guy never heard of "stopping power"
Please tell me you're not kidding! If it's open season for "Smart" cars in Arkansas, I'm applying for a hunting permit today!
(Just as long as it's the cars, not the drivers. )
Here's an extreme example of *lack* of stopping power. It's a true story BTW.
A hunting party in Africa (Zimbabwe, specifically) comes up on a small group of poachers. The poachers immediately start firing upon the party with AK-47's (seemingly the weapon of choice amongst poachers.) The professional guide with the party returns fire with a .416 Remington and hits one of the poachers in the head. Result: A chunk of brain the size of a fist is blown out! But the poacher still has enough steam to run 70 meters after being shot.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/353102517?r=426104517#426104517
So I guess the point is that sometimes you can blow a chunk of someone's brain out and still not hit anything vital.
Please tell me you're not kidding! If it's open season for "Smart" cars in Arkansas, I'm applying for a hunting permit today!
(Just as long as it's the cars, not the drivers.
)Here's an extreme example of *lack* of stopping power. It's a true story BTW.
A hunting party in Africa (Zimbabwe, specifically) comes up on a small group of poachers. The poachers immediately start firing upon the party with AK-47's (seemingly the weapon of choice amongst poachers.) The professional guide with the party returns fire with a .416 Remington and hits one of the poachers in the head. Result: A chunk of brain the size of a fist is blown out! But the poacher still has enough steam to run 70 meters after being shot.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/353102517?r=426104517#426104517
So I guess the point is that sometimes you can blow a chunk of someone's brain out and still not hit anything vital.
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Pigoutultra
Member
Well some people don't use their brains all that much so it just might be possible.
crossrhodes
Member
Bullet has has no effect
A bullet has no effect in whipping a dead horse. One question and a million different answers. Use what works for you. I prefer the big bullet big hole theory for handguns, Partition bullets do the trick for hunting large N.American game for me. when in doubt....no on ever survived overkill with large volumes of fire.
A bullet has no effect in whipping a dead horse. One question and a million different answers. Use what works for you. I prefer the big bullet big hole theory for handguns, Partition bullets do the trick for hunting large N.American game for me. when in doubt....no on ever survived overkill with large volumes of fire.
crossrhodes
Member
Bullet has no effect
A bullet has no effect in whipping a dead horse. One question and a million different answers. Use what works for you. I prefer the big bullet big hole theory for handguns, Partition bullets do the trick for hunting large N.American game for me. when in doubt....no one ever survived overkill with large volumes of fire.
A bullet has no effect in whipping a dead horse. One question and a million different answers. Use what works for you. I prefer the big bullet big hole theory for handguns, Partition bullets do the trick for hunting large N.American game for me. when in doubt....no one ever survived overkill with large volumes of fire.
Buck Snort
Member
Buck Snort
Member
A big hole that causes a lot of bleeding is good. Blood loss is always a killer. Regardless of race, religion, sex or creed, you lose enough blood, you die.
Always.
As for pedestrians getting hit by cars. I think too many people have been watching too movies. The action shots of stunt men flying over cars and getting back up are totally false.
I saw a deer hit by a semi. Happened about 5 seconds in front of me. When I went by the pile, it looked like hamburger with fur on it.
No, you get hit by a car, truck, and it is going 50 mph, you are dead. Very dead. You might not even look like a person. They will probably get a shovel and scrap the big chunks meat off of the tarmac and just pressure wash off the ground in meat.
Hard to say if that is better than the victims of the Value Jet 592. That one directly into the Everglades. They hosed the remains into chicken wire grates and picked out the pieces they recognised as human.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-456.pdf
Always.
As for pedestrians getting hit by cars. I think too many people have been watching too movies. The action shots of stunt men flying over cars and getting back up are totally false.
I saw a deer hit by a semi. Happened about 5 seconds in front of me. When I went by the pile, it looked like hamburger with fur on it.
No, you get hit by a car, truck, and it is going 50 mph, you are dead. Very dead. You might not even look like a person. They will probably get a shovel and scrap the big chunks meat off of the tarmac and just pressure wash off the ground in meat.
Hard to say if that is better than the victims of the Value Jet 592. That one directly into the Everglades. They hosed the remains into chicken wire grates and picked out the pieces they recognised as human.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809-456.pdf
Way back when I started shooting handguns, in the 60's. It was velocity that was said to be the key factor, vs, diameter. Or the 357, vs the 45. But it appears that they are both right and both wrong depending on what you are shooting at. Hogs have a heck of a lot more muscle and bone than people yet a 357 is said to be more effective than a 45. "thats just the opinion of some guys who hunt hogs", I asked because I plan on going with them next time. Of course a 308, will come along. Now my uncles used to go every year for Boar, with 45's, again with a long gun backup, they were as close to professional hunters as was possible back in the 50's and 60's. The went To Alaska for Bear, Canada for Moose etc. They would jump out of planes and hike into the wild at any oppertunity to go hunt something, they went to the same farmers lant upstate ny for chucks with a 243.or another caliber in that range for 30 years, I still remember the farmers name, Ling So how does it translate to people. Does velocty triumph over diameter or is it the combination of both. Assuming we are talking about similar type ammo, like a JHP. 45 seems to work well on most things that move, as long as they are human. As does a 357, but the rap on the 357 was it may go through the intended target and hit an unintended target. To me it seems that depending on where you live and how people dress ie: a 380 may not be as effective against a heavilly dressed person. Someone with a jacket overcoat shirt undershirt, and pockets full of stuff. Where as it may be fine in FL where the only thing the person has on is a cotton shirt. Kind of like the Hog, having all that exra mass to penetrate. I am not versed in bullett dynamics and loading formulas as many here are but common sense would dictate that a 357 may be overdoing it as a carry weapon in FL, and be fine in Alaska or upstate NY. Am I close?
Ole Humpback
Member
Chuckhawks has a good article on stopping power of a cartridge and a table that lists the OSS percentages of most handguns.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
hit the CNS with any bullet to stop right there.
excruiating pain can also 'stop'. a bullet even lowly .22LR into the eye, adam's apple or nose. well they likely would get to the brain stem anyway with a hit in those areas.
3 of my 5 sisters enjoy target shooting and are quite capable with their own pistols (2 have .380acp and 1 a .32acp - she didn't like the 'blast' of the .380) after I had them shoot a .22LR revolver many times - which they still do for 'fun' at family gatherings on water filled balloons, hanging pieces of 2" steel tube, cans and such. It's rare to meet a woman that doesn't like 'action ' or something going on all the time to peak their interest. they are all crazy of course. but these gals you do not want them shooting at you. my nephews wives all have their own pistols (2 have .22 revolvers and quite good w/them) the others have .380acp or .38spcl S&W.
a .380acp or .38 spcl is very likely enough 'stopping power' around center-mass, gullet or even groin area. (quite painful there, in some places) bigger is better there with bullet design and velocity for max effectiveness a close second.
I'm hopeing sometime to see an 'armed citizen' listing in NRA mag of one of the gals I've 'coached' popping caps on some 'hoods'.
excruiating pain can also 'stop'. a bullet even lowly .22LR into the eye, adam's apple or nose. well they likely would get to the brain stem anyway with a hit in those areas.
3 of my 5 sisters enjoy target shooting and are quite capable with their own pistols (2 have .380acp and 1 a .32acp - she didn't like the 'blast' of the .380) after I had them shoot a .22LR revolver many times - which they still do for 'fun' at family gatherings on water filled balloons, hanging pieces of 2" steel tube, cans and such. It's rare to meet a woman that doesn't like 'action ' or something going on all the time to peak their interest. they are all crazy of course. but these gals you do not want them shooting at you. my nephews wives all have their own pistols (2 have .22 revolvers and quite good w/them) the others have .380acp or .38spcl S&W.
a .380acp or .38 spcl is very likely enough 'stopping power' around center-mass, gullet or even groin area. (quite painful there, in some places) bigger is better there with bullet design and velocity for max effectiveness a close second.
I'm hopeing sometime to see an 'armed citizen' listing in NRA mag of one of the gals I've 'coached' popping caps on some 'hoods'.
gamestalker
member
A 125 grain bullet traveling at 1500 fps will produce 625 ft. lbs. of energy. A 250 grain bullet at 800 fps. produces 355 ft. lbs. of energy.
Pigoutultra
Member
Energy isn't by any means an accurate measure of stopping power. Permanent wound cavity and penetration are all that matter the most important. And besides, energy doesn't take into account at all the construction or caliber of the bullet.
txhoghunter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2010
- Messages
- 663
Now the amount of this energy that affects your target depends on whether the bullet passes through or not, and if it does, how much energy leaves with the bullet.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I think the biggest advantage of the exit hole is that is means the bullet did damage for a longer distance through the body than one that is stopped inside. However, an exit hole isn't needed for bleeding out. Bleeding out internally works just fine.
An exit wound that does spill blood, however, still has one major advantage as it makes tracking your prey or opposition much easier. Blood trails may be minimal or functionally non-existent with only entry wounds.
10mm Mike
Member
lol, lets call him "more experienced" then.
That chuckhawks handgun chart didn't do the 10mm justice.
crossrhodes
Member
Wound & ballistics
The Army has a very good study on DVD from their wounds and ballistics lab that might be of interest to some. They did a lot of test on pig bodies.
The Army has a very good study on DVD from their wounds and ballistics lab that might be of interest to some. They did a lot of test on pig bodies.
Pigoutultra
Member
I'll have to check that out. I've always felt that there can be no definitive result from ballistics gel and anyone who said so was full of it. An actual cadaver, on the other hand, is much more suitable due to the fact that it has muscles, organs, bones and skin.
altitude_19
Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Messages
- 650
I am primarily concerned with the psychological effect. I shoot to stop an attack and present the perp in question an opportunity to go home and reconsider his life decisions. So I use a wide (45) bullet travelling at supersonic velocities (+p). If that won't get his attention, nothing will. It has the added benefit of causing a grievous wound, just in case he gets tenacious. But I'm not interested in killing, after being shot, my assailant may die, and he may not...it's really his business.
Snowdog
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 4,606
What? I cannot imagine a single situation where this would be even close to accurate.
Line up a couple gallon jugs of water and shoot one of each into these jugs. Both will easily plow clean through both but tell me if you notice a difference in reaction (note, cover any camera equipment during the .30 carbine test).
Now, if you're talking expanding bullets (JHP/JSP) then the differences are even more dramatic and you would be even more off base.
Penetration is crucial, however velocity should never be taken from the equation.
Cgoliver said "In autosports they say: "Horsepower sells cars but torque wins races".
Depends. Road course, oval or drag strip. On a road course like Sarthe/Le Mans or Monza or an oval like Indy top speed(hp), handling and braking for the road course will win races along with your aero package. Drag Strip or at Old Dominon oval torque wins.
You need to stop the BG from doing harm to you. In HD that may mean killing the BG. On the battlefield wounding the BG is acceptable and a better option.
Va Herder
Depends. Road course, oval or drag strip. On a road course like Sarthe/Le Mans or Monza or an oval like Indy top speed(hp), handling and braking for the road course will win races along with your aero package. Drag Strip or at Old Dominon oval torque wins.
You need to stop the BG from doing harm to you. In HD that may mean killing the BG. On the battlefield wounding the BG is acceptable and a better option.
Va Herder
Bullet design is critical. Velocity has to be matched to the bullet. The problem with most HP's is they expend all their energy, creating a large wound channel, in what appears to be the first 6 inches. They then slow down, and do very little damage.
There is something to be said for a bullet that blows through the target at near it's speed of impact. Problem is most service caliber weapons can't generate enough velocity to do this. It takes a fairly heavy bullet to penetrate, and expand like an HP,
and not loose massive amounts of speed. I think speed does kill, but, it's speed through the target, coupled with bullet design, and expansion.
There are a bunch of hunters that swear by .475-.512 caliber bullets, heavy ones, WFN,
going between 950-1550 fps. I suspect to maintain speed through the target, one would have to have VERY heavy hollow points, since these big HP's open up to the size of a 2 bore rifle slug.
I pretty much believe in both heavy, and fast. 275 grains, at 1550 fps, in a .475 is going to put a big hole in a bad guy, probably most of the way through.
Others swear that a 525 grain .512 caliber bullet at 1100 fps hits game like the hammer of Thor. All of this really flys in the face of most of the standard 'stopping power theory, except for Martin Facklers. If you look at his picture of a 12 gauge slug, it's really close in weight and velocity to the bullets I'm talking about, and, how they penetrate through the target.
On the otherhand, more then one way to skin a cat. A .308 soft point can create a huge temporary wound cavity, and, if heavy enough, will still penetrate enough.
As for the .416 story. I've only been able to find one actual shooting of a human with a high powered rifle. Some hunter accidentally discharge his 375 H&H at point blank range, hitting the guy in front of him in the shoulder area. It pretty much blew the guys arm off, and, he died of bleeding before he could get to a hospital. The energy hitting a shoulder area, of such a rifle, at point blank range, can turn all the bone in that area
into shrapnel, with devastating results. Likewise, a 440 grain bullet at 950 fps, .500 caliber, can smash through, and turn bone into shards of shrapnel, creating more wounding then can be accounted for.
It's the speed the bullet maintains through the target, what it hits, and what it does both to itself, and to the obstructions it encounters. A light, high speed bullet, that opens up, and fails to penetrate a rib is less likely to stop then a heavy bullet that maintains it's speed through the target, and, when it hits bone, takes that bone and turns it into a equally high speed projectile.
In other words, your single heavy bullet has the potential to turn the bone in the target
into a shotgun like wound pattern, with a huge wound cavity.
There is something to be said for a bullet that blows through the target at near it's speed of impact. Problem is most service caliber weapons can't generate enough velocity to do this. It takes a fairly heavy bullet to penetrate, and expand like an HP,
and not loose massive amounts of speed. I think speed does kill, but, it's speed through the target, coupled with bullet design, and expansion.
There are a bunch of hunters that swear by .475-.512 caliber bullets, heavy ones, WFN,
going between 950-1550 fps. I suspect to maintain speed through the target, one would have to have VERY heavy hollow points, since these big HP's open up to the size of a 2 bore rifle slug.
I pretty much believe in both heavy, and fast. 275 grains, at 1550 fps, in a .475 is going to put a big hole in a bad guy, probably most of the way through.
Others swear that a 525 grain .512 caliber bullet at 1100 fps hits game like the hammer of Thor. All of this really flys in the face of most of the standard 'stopping power theory, except for Martin Facklers. If you look at his picture of a 12 gauge slug, it's really close in weight and velocity to the bullets I'm talking about, and, how they penetrate through the target.
On the otherhand, more then one way to skin a cat. A .308 soft point can create a huge temporary wound cavity, and, if heavy enough, will still penetrate enough.
As for the .416 story. I've only been able to find one actual shooting of a human with a high powered rifle. Some hunter accidentally discharge his 375 H&H at point blank range, hitting the guy in front of him in the shoulder area. It pretty much blew the guys arm off, and, he died of bleeding before he could get to a hospital. The energy hitting a shoulder area, of such a rifle, at point blank range, can turn all the bone in that area
into shrapnel, with devastating results. Likewise, a 440 grain bullet at 950 fps, .500 caliber, can smash through, and turn bone into shards of shrapnel, creating more wounding then can be accounted for.
It's the speed the bullet maintains through the target, what it hits, and what it does both to itself, and to the obstructions it encounters. A light, high speed bullet, that opens up, and fails to penetrate a rib is less likely to stop then a heavy bullet that maintains it's speed through the target, and, when it hits bone, takes that bone and turns it into a equally high speed projectile.
In other words, your single heavy bullet has the potential to turn the bone in the target
into a shotgun like wound pattern, with a huge wound cavity.
lobo9er
Member
Stopping power.
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