REAL Stopping Power
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Pigoutultra
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Absolutely not!!
VT Deer Hunter
Member
Yah.
LEO shot a bad guy at approximately 50 yards (not sure of distance but was not that far) with an AR-15. There was a thread several months ago with Pics. The bullet entered the upper part of the BG's leg and missed the bone. Did not matter the bone was shattered and what looked like 1.5 pounds of BG leg was not recovered. If you do not have mass then you need velocity. Think the round used was FMJ but I could be wrong. If you look for thread it is fairly graphic for those who might be offended.
AZ Five seveN
Member
The topic of this thread is the exact reason I love my Five-seveN. I know a lot of people believe the 5.7x28mm round is nothing but a glorified .22 mag, but this is utterly false.
The 5.7x28mm has minimal recoil when compared with "common" calibers, which allows for extremely quick follow up shots under duress. It also tumbles and begins to yaw soon after impact which when combined with the exceptionally high velocity generates a much larger permanent wound cavity than would be expected from such a small caliber.
Penetration is harder to measure due to yaw, but it is sufficient and meets FBI standards. This round also has no issue with heavy clothing or barriers and is known to be able to penetrate Level III + armor (unnecessary for civilians, but can be useful for LE / Military).
If the round isn't a .454 or .500, it really does not matter because a nonfatal shot will not cause enough hydrostatic shock to incapacitate a person in one hit.
Just my .02
The 5.7x28mm has minimal recoil when compared with "common" calibers, which allows for extremely quick follow up shots under duress. It also tumbles and begins to yaw soon after impact which when combined with the exceptionally high velocity generates a much larger permanent wound cavity than would be expected from such a small caliber.
Penetration is harder to measure due to yaw, but it is sufficient and meets FBI standards. This round also has no issue with heavy clothing or barriers and is known to be able to penetrate Level III + armor (unnecessary for civilians, but can be useful for LE / Military).
If the round isn't a .454 or .500, it really does not matter because a nonfatal shot will not cause enough hydrostatic shock to incapacitate a person in one hit.
Just my .02
Tumbling is only accounted for by Fackler's diagrams. Otherwise, it seems to be a forgotten part of the equation.
For an extreme example, BRI developed at one point, a sabot round 450-500 grains,
over an inch long, going at between 1500-1800 fps, in .45 or .50 calibers.
We tested the round on hard stuff, cars, and varmits. I often wondered if impact with a human would be sufficient to make the round tumble. Heard guys liked them a LOT
in Alaska. Can't think of anything much more destructive then a 1 inch long, 50 caliber sabot tumbling through it's target at high speed.
When I look at service calibers, I really wonder if John Moses Browning didn't have the right idea in the first place. He had the Hague Convention to deal with, and, his solution was a 200 grain, flat point, or truncated cone, at 950 fps out of a .45.
While that round might not expand, it would create a pretty large wound channel. What if you up that to 1200 fps, like we did with the Detonics .451?
Also, from LEO reports and experience: the 200 grain speer flying Ashtrays, at 1200 fps, where VERY effective against bad guys, back in the 80's.
Where I was going, besides more then one way to skin a cat, is with service calibers we might be better off using lighter, flat point bullets, at higher speeds, rather then hollow points. It seems that most service calibers can't move a heavy enough hollow point fast
enough to maintain penetration speed, and a full sized wound channel through the target.
There appears to be a serious difference in wound channel size when moving from lower velocity, i.e. 600-750 fps, and, 950-1350 fps, with a bit of diminishing returns much over
1200 fps..
The venerable .45 Colt, with a 260 grain flat point, at 1100 fps is no joke.
While I have HST 147 grain HP's in my 9mm, I wonder if 125 grain flat points, moving as fast as possible wouldn't be a better solution?
So, I keep the backup magazine loaded with 125 grain flat point Federal, at about 950 fps. I'd like to find a bit faster load, but, it would seem that
for the lesser calibers, that bullet design might give a deeper, longer, wider,
wound channel, and, possibly two holes.
For an extreme example, BRI developed at one point, a sabot round 450-500 grains,
over an inch long, going at between 1500-1800 fps, in .45 or .50 calibers.
We tested the round on hard stuff, cars, and varmits. I often wondered if impact with a human would be sufficient to make the round tumble. Heard guys liked them a LOT
in Alaska. Can't think of anything much more destructive then a 1 inch long, 50 caliber sabot tumbling through it's target at high speed.
When I look at service calibers, I really wonder if John Moses Browning didn't have the right idea in the first place. He had the Hague Convention to deal with, and, his solution was a 200 grain, flat point, or truncated cone, at 950 fps out of a .45.
While that round might not expand, it would create a pretty large wound channel. What if you up that to 1200 fps, like we did with the Detonics .451?
Also, from LEO reports and experience: the 200 grain speer flying Ashtrays, at 1200 fps, where VERY effective against bad guys, back in the 80's.
Where I was going, besides more then one way to skin a cat, is with service calibers we might be better off using lighter, flat point bullets, at higher speeds, rather then hollow points. It seems that most service calibers can't move a heavy enough hollow point fast
enough to maintain penetration speed, and a full sized wound channel through the target.
There appears to be a serious difference in wound channel size when moving from lower velocity, i.e. 600-750 fps, and, 950-1350 fps, with a bit of diminishing returns much over
1200 fps..
The venerable .45 Colt, with a 260 grain flat point, at 1100 fps is no joke.
While I have HST 147 grain HP's in my 9mm, I wonder if 125 grain flat points, moving as fast as possible wouldn't be a better solution?
So, I keep the backup magazine loaded with 125 grain flat point Federal, at about 950 fps. I'd like to find a bit faster load, but, it would seem that
for the lesser calibers, that bullet design might give a deeper, longer, wider,
wound channel, and, possibly two holes.
NMGonzo
Member
Ideally I would carry 180 grains of anything going over 1100 fps.
Funny you brought those numbers up. Here is a test of a .44 Magnum 180 grain XTP, a bullet known to penetrate pretty well, at 1571 fps. It penetrates to 12.6";-( You can clearly see that the damage is done in the first six inches of the block. My concern with this is what if the guy has an arm out, and the bullet hits his arm, fail to penetrate deeply enough, and he keeps going?
It's very hard to push a light bullet fast enough to get 18" or so of penetration, and I think that should be the target. To get an exit is said to require 6" of gello penetration, and velocity must still be pretty high, since the offside skin is elastic, and, really not an easy barrier to penetrate.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/180grHorn44mag.html
However, move the bullet weight up to 240 grains, and you get a bigger, longer wound channel, with plenty of penetration:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer240grainJHP.html
The above was going about 1354 fps, IIRC.
This slower Federal 240 grain bullet still does quite a bit of damage:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal 240 grain Hydra-Shok.html
It's very hard to push a light bullet fast enough to get 18" or so of penetration, and I think that should be the target. To get an exit is said to require 6" of gello penetration, and velocity must still be pretty high, since the offside skin is elastic, and, really not an easy barrier to penetrate.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/180grHorn44mag.html
However, move the bullet weight up to 240 grains, and you get a bigger, longer wound channel, with plenty of penetration:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer240grainJHP.html
The above was going about 1354 fps, IIRC.
This slower Federal 240 grain bullet still does quite a bit of damage:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal 240 grain Hydra-Shok.html
AZ Five seveN
Member
Both of those 240gr bullets would have likely hit the people standing behind the target.
16" + 8" of bullet arresting box for the Speer 240gr, and 16" + 4" of bullet arresting box for the Federal... Unless said bullets struck a very large person, they definitely wounded anyone standing behind them.
Why is 18" of penetration your magic number? I prefer seeing numbers around 12" - 15" max.
As for light and fast, the 5.7x28mm can be tweaked to travel up to 2300-2400 fps. As for my carry ammo, it travels at ~2050 fps. Energy levels are comparable to .45 ACP.
If anyone is interested in the terminal performance of flatnosed bullets (and bullets in general), you should check out this page, "Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories."
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html
It's very informative and enlightening.
The only thing I could add to the author's findings is:
1. The meplat (the diameter of the flat nose) is optimal at around 65 percent of caliber, or slightly more. Stability tends to fall off quickly with smaller percentage meplats.
2. Stability of roundnose bullets in some test media is frequently tenuous. Oftentimes these bullets are notorious for veering or tumbling. (This accounts for why some heavy rifle calibers like .458 Magnum and .375 H&H can show lackluster performance in ballistic testing. They're usually roundnose FMJ's.)
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html
It's very informative and enlightening.
The only thing I could add to the author's findings is:
1. The meplat (the diameter of the flat nose) is optimal at around 65 percent of caliber, or slightly more. Stability tends to fall off quickly with smaller percentage meplats.
2. Stability of roundnose bullets in some test media is frequently tenuous. Oftentimes these bullets are notorious for veering or tumbling. (This accounts for why some heavy rifle calibers like .458 Magnum and .375 H&H can show lackluster performance in ballistic testing. They're usually roundnose FMJ's.)
AZ Five seveN
Member
If you're looking for fast traveling 9mm, check out the Win Ranger-T 127gr +P+. It travels at ~1250 fps.
The FBI target number was 18". I'm 205, ok, 210 after a few beers. The only guys that have ever assaulted/battered me have been in the 240 pound plus range. I want two holes.
I am not a LEO. Therefore the LEO guidelines are fine for them. What if the guy has a vest on? 440 grains at 950, or, 275 grain HP at 1560 fps is going to get their attention, vest or not.
I am not a LEO. Therefore the LEO guidelines are fine for them. What if the guy has a vest on? 440 grains at 950, or, 275 grain HP at 1560 fps is going to get their attention, vest or not.
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