Real world handgun over-penetration horror stories?

[VG]

Wikipedia has this:

Overpenetration is exaggerated by those who advocate shallow-penetrating "rapid energy transfer" bullets. Tests have shown that human skin, on the entry side, resists penetration about as much as 2" (5 cm) of muscle, and skin on the exit side is the equivalent of 4 in (10 cm). A bullet would need to penetrate greater than 14 in (36 cm) of tissue simulant to have a chance to completely perforate an 8" (20 cm) thick torso.

Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it would probably have very little velocity left by that point, and pose a reduced risk to those downrange. Missing altogether is a much greater threat.

And according to NYPD SOP-9 (Standard Operating Procedure #9) data, in the year 2000, only 9% of shots fired by officers engaged in gunfights actually hit perpetrators. In the same year, there were a total of 129 "shooting incidents" (including non-gunfights, such as officers firing at aggressive dogs, unarmed or fleeing perpetrators, etc.), 471 total shots fired by officers, 367 shots fired at perpetrators, and 58 total hits on perpetrators by police. So when non-gunfight shooting data is added, the rate at which police hit what they aim at in real life situations is still only 15.8%.

When you consider the staggering miss rate of police officers, it is very unlikely that a bullet will hit someone else after going through an attacker. Accidental shootings due to misses have occurred, but at a far lower rate than that at which officers miss their intended target.

 

[Black Snowman]

My views on the subject are found in these threads:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=127511
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=118910
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=118791
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=113626

Saves me a lot of typing.

 

[BluesBear]

Probably?!?!

Even if the bullet does completely penetrate a person, it would probably have very little velocity left by that point,

Don't you just love it when people take a wild guess at something and then represent it as fact?

 

[ghost squire]

Any ammunition with more than 14 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin has the potential to overpenetrate and kill even on a full frontal shot.

Then again any ammunition period has the potential to kill on a miss, so does it really matter except to the lawyers of police departments?

I think the whole matter was blown out of proportion by gunwriters in the pocket of the fast light ammo crowd.

 

[Borachon]

If you are really worried about over penetration....crouch before you shoot.

That's right. Take a knee.

By being down on one knee, you'll be firing at an upward angle...however slight....toward your target. If your round blows straight through someone, it will still be travelling in an upward direction (theorectically) along the angled flight path from which you fired. Bystanders behind your target might hear the round pass over their heads, but otherwise suffer no damage.

It's not a bad idea to learn how to shoot while crouching...you present a smaller target yourself this way.

 

[BluesBear]

what was that old saying...



Oh yeah... What goes up, MUST come down.



Not to say that the drop to one kbnee concept doesn't have it's use. But I condiser it to opnly be feasable when there is a large number of innocent bystanders in close proximity to the target. In that case the chance of the bullet hitting a distant bystander is less than the chance of it hitting a nearby bystander.

But don't forget that a bullet fired in an upward arch will have a longer killing range than a bullet fired level.

 

[Onmilo]

Hypothetically the bullet will still be going uphill when and if it exits the target.,,,,

I don't know about all that but I did see a guy get shot center mass with a 5.56 and the bullet blew the top of his head off when it exited,,,,I guess it was going uphill when it exited, don't know where it landed, nobody went looking for it.

 

[Cosmoline]

I think that's because they tend to hit everything EXCEPT what they're shooting at.

Exactly. Those are not cases of true overpenetration but spraying and praying resulting in about 50 to 75% of the bullets missing the target. True overpenetration requires the bullet to pass through the target first, which in the case of a HP 9x19 or .45 ACP will sap most of its killing power.

full-metal-jacket bullets

There's the NYPD's problem right there. FMJ rounds are bad all around. They're poor killers and they maximize the chance of overpentration injury. On most handgun rounds, a HP will act like a brake as it opens. There's no need to use "frangible" rounds.

As with all things, it's a tradeoff. By using lower powered firearms to minimize risk of overpentration (which an amazing number of people apparently do), you increase the chance that 1) you'll be shot yourself by the bad guy and 2) you'll have to shoot him several times to bring him down. With, for example, a hunting rifle loaded with SP rounds, there is a greater chance of overpenetration than with a 9mm handgun. But there is also a FAR lower chance that you will miss the vital spot or that the fellow will continue to fight. It's hard to fight with your heart and lungs torn up and a huge hole in your back gushing blood. On balance, I favor using the most powerful firearm possible to end matters as quickly as possible. THIS is the best way to both end the imminent deadly peril and minimize the chance of overpenetration or stray rounds.

 

[Sinsaba]

... This is the issue then: Accepting that over penetration happens, how does this affect your round selection? You must balance the cost and likelihood of a tragic over-penetration against the cost and likelihood of under-penetration and make your decision. ...

emphasis is mine ...

when I weigh the cost of tragic over-penetration against the cost of tragic non-stopping ... I'll take the biggest round I can shoot well.

I'll play the odds a) odds of over penetrating, b) odds of hitting someone else, c) odds of fatal wound. When combine those odds with what will happen to you if you don't STOP the BG then... well... no contest!

 

[A2lockdown]

just thought id add something

1st: from a medical standpoint the best way to kill someone is w/ an entry AND exit hole.
2nd: a bullet that exits after a COM hit will still have enough energy to kill someone else, as if it hits bone (ribs, sternum, spine) it is VERY unlikely it will exit intact. so the bullet will have only penetrated soft tissue, which does not slow it down below lethal velosity.
3rd: it totally depends on what body structures the bullet passes through. 22lr could kill someone behind the bad guy in the same day that 44 mag doesnt stop a perp. too many variables to calculate w/accuracy.
be careful. no misses, no problems.
oh yea, and to the origional ques, yep, heard a story of a 45fmj killing 2 people. neck in 1st, heart? in 2nd. both hostiles, cqb gun fight, range less than 10 yrds.

 

[JohnKSa]

It can happen. It does happen.

But premium modern self-defense ammo makes it far less likely to occur than in times past. And also casts a shadow on statistics accumulated from a PD using FMJ.

The best way to prevent overpenetration is to use premium self-defense ammo and hit your attacker center of mass. There's far more danger to bystanders from the rounds that miss than from the ones that hit.

More to the point, if you're legally shooting a person in a crowded situation, it's very likely that there's more danger to the bystanders FROM THE ATTACKER than from the rounds you fire.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I define "overpenetration" as a solid torso hit that exits the body.

In most cases, "overpenetration" is the result of a peripheral hit, in which the penetration path of the bullet is just a few inches.

When someone cites a shooting incident as an example of "overpenetration" the knowledgable person will ask: What was the length of the wound track through the body? If there is no data to support the claim, then it is an anecdotal report.

 

[RecoilRob]

I've argued this point elsewhere and the most ardent 'Thou shalt not overpenetrate' advocates were LEO types who, I suspect, are driven more by their Dept. Lawyers than by actual fact.

So long as they continue to preach about the HORRORS OF OVERPENETRATION they leave themselves an 'out' in Court. "No, I didn't shoot Mrs. Innocent with one of my 8 missed shots. It MUST have been the ONE shot that I hit the BG with that Overpenetrated!"

I really wonder how you can tell who was actually hit with what when there is more than a single round fired? And, like many have mentioned, if the shot wasn't COM can you really fault any ammo for continuing it's travel beyond the target?

 

[JohnKSa]

they leave themselves an 'out' in Court. "No, I didn't shoot Mrs. Innocent with one of my 8 missed shots. It MUST have been the ONE shot that I hit the BG with that Overpenetrated!"

That actually makes a lot of sense...