Reality has set in...an non-warrior mentality.

[Jeff White]

Only military combat produces adrenaline dump. Gotchya.

No you don't see. Combat is a generic term here. What I mean is that until you've experienced it, you can't predict how you will react. People who have extensive training, including stress inoculation can freeze. You just dont know and there really isn't an accurate way to predict how you or anyone else will react.

Jeff

 

[Treo]

I didn't realize the issue was weather or not we can kill. I thought the issue was how we respond to our fight or flight synapse.

Can we get through such a situation? Can we do the next right thing when we have to?

 

[scythefwd]

Treo,
Im not exactly sure why they had them. I was a bit to nieve to question. I assumed it was his cop buddies, but it could have been his guard buddies. He just said he got them from the armory. His unit was an infantry unit and having met a couple of the guys, it wouldn't suprize me if it was their personal stash. I never actually stopped to think about it. Looking back now, there were three stripper clips loaded. One with red tips, one with orange tips, and one with green (I think) tips if I remember right. I remember thinking the greens (or whatever color they were) were AP. Now I am not so sure. I actually thank you for making me look back again not just in memory but to compaire against my current knowledge.

Not sure why he had them after seeing the buick of truth, but have them he did.

Wow, my last post was very mall ninjaish.

 

[george29]

There was a surreal moment while taking cover in that crater where the dude with the BAR looks at Ryan and gives him that nod? That nod was: "Today, at this moment, at this very second...may be the last time I see you."

I kinda felt that Pvt. Richard Reiben (guy with the BAR) was saying "You're OK, I misjudged you without ever getting to know you". He was the guy that kept b8tching about the mission.

That's my take. I have seen a very minute amount of action, nothing in the world can compare to D-Day and what those men went through the first few hours.

My prayer is that we never have to save another unworthy European again. Robin Williams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc78yPv_ztM&feature=related does a magnificant sketch of a Frenchman that can't stand Americans until he turns around in surprise to see Germans, and then all of a sudden he loves Americans. God, I hope we stop being the world's self appointed village cop and start repairing our own world.

"Today, at this moment, at this very second...may be the last time I see you."

There comes a point where fate becomes your focus, especially where unavoidable danger looms all around and there is no escape. I have more than one friend KIA, I wasn't with any of them at the time so I don't know how they dealt with the unavoidable. Why is it bothering you so much? Let it go, these kind of thoughts aren't good for anyone.

 

[csmkersh]

Have you done it, killed in combat? If not, you really don't know how you will react.

Amen. And with that, maybe it's time to put this thread to bed.

​

 

[redneckdan]

The look...

The look is not just a combat thing. I first saw it on the side of a mountain in the middle of an avalanche...fortuneatly we both made it out. Another pair of skiers with us was not so lucky.

 

[Checkman]

Well I'll add my experience here. The fourteen years I spent in the U.S. Army were unspectacular. I've been a cop for eight years now and I've had a few things happen.

No I haven't had to shoot anyone nor have I had anyone shoot at me.

My real-life, "oh boy" situations (five over the past eight years) have been people that were hiding in a dark house that they were burglarizing, people physically attacking me and one out of control party that literally turned into a riot and involved me getting pepper sprayed, using my Taser twice and having to fight a suspect after being sprayed.

As I look back on those situations it's easy to see that they all could have been very deadly. At the time I was just doing my job. My training helped and also I recall having the mindset that I was going to win. End of discussion.

I was also scared when I was searching the house for the suspects. We knew they hadn't gotten out of the house yet. My training helped and I focused on searching.

When I deal with people in the middle of a bad situation I find it helps to be the calm one. People are stressed out and are looking for somebody to be the island of calm amidst the chaos. And this isn't just the territory of First Responders (cops, paramedics, firemen). I've seen private citizens taking charge of folks that have locked up and they can be a tremendous help.

I once had a sixty year old nun (yes a nun) help me out in a pretty bad five car crash. She just showed up wearing her habit. I had people everywhere and for a few minutes it was just me. I asked her to help get people out of the road and get them into one spot. She did. Calm as ice and she had a remarkable effect on the shell shocked folks.

For me the worst thing about getting through ugly situations is the aftermatch when you start shaking from the adrenalin. That takes a tremendous effort to make sure the public not see your hands trembling. Nobody ever talked about that inthe academy.

 

[Old Guy]

The legs!

For me the worst thing about getting through ugly situations is the aftermath when you start shaking from the adrenalin. That takes a tremendous effort to make sure the public not see your hands trembling. Nobody ever talked about that in the academy.

Me? Get in the car, slip it into gear, cool as ice! Five minutes later... right leg, thigh muscles go nuts! twice in my life, once in the UK, once in Detroit, the Brit one... A standard transmission! You could see the muscle jump.

The car was a VW, more like a Kangaroo!

 

[nelson133]

A couple of years or so ago I had an experience where I had to draw my gun. What I learned was that training is very important, I was up and had the gun out and was ready to defend myself before I thought, it was all automatic. The situation didn't require me to fire, but I was cold, calm and ready with no feeling of hesitation. The next 2 days were a different story, as I sorted through what had happened, I was pretty twitchy.
I do shoot a lot and practice different types of gun handling, strong hand, weak hand, multiple targets, multiple rounds into selected targets, etc. However the most effective training when it came down to it was visualization. In my daily activities, I think about what I would do if x happened right now. Can I get to a gun, where is the nearest gun, is my hand free right now, what if someone pops out between those 2 cars in the parking lot tonight? You don't have to obsess about it or do it every minute, but you need to have thought out a plan before an event happens, to program your response. At least that is how it worked for me.

 

[Checkman]

Bullseye nelson133

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The notion, advocated by Grossman and others, that military men are the "wolves" that protect the rest of us "sheep" is absurd and dangerous to the foundations of the Republic.

Hear, hear! +1 on that!

This is all assuming I know I am justified in taking a life, obviously.

And that might very well be where the hesitation lies. "Is there something else I can do before I have to put a bullet in this guy?" Even if it's obvious, most people try to avoid the distasteful.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Combat is a generic term here. What I mean is that until you've experienced it, you can't predict how you will react. People who have extensive training, including stress inoculation can freeze. You just dont know and there really isn't an accurate way to predict how you or anyone else will react.

Absolutely correct. Even those guys that do a lot of Simunition scenario training, though they MIGHT be better prepared for an actual confrontation, you just don't know. Why? Because in Simunition or scenario based training, you still know that YOUR LIFE IS NOT ON THE LINE!!!
The permanency of consequences causes a disconnect between training and reality.

 

[Checkman]

When Grossman came out with his first book he had some real interesting research in it. But over the past nine or ten years Grossman has become hot property. He makes alot of money on the lecture circuit and he is now in the position of always selling himself.

A couple of years ago I attended one of his training seminars and while he provided some excellent information I found him slightly bombastic and egotistical.

He makes his living speaking to cops, soldiers, etc. He has to appeal to the egos of those in my profession and I dare say he is very similar to many of my peers.

 

[Old Guy]

Col. Grossman

He does come across as a bit full of himself.

I think he is right on about the violent video games being bad for kids though.

He does speak to tough audiences tho!

 

[Checkman]

He does speak to some tough audiences and many respond to the football/half-time tough talk. It works.

 

[happybrew]

No you don't see. Combat is a generic term here. What I mean is that until you've experienced it, you can't predict how you will react. People who have extensive training, including stress inoculation can freeze. You just dont know and there really isn't an accurate way to predict how you or anyone else will react.

Very true. As a National Guard medic, I did very well in training. First serious injury I encountered on an FTX in Korea a few months after AIT, I was not prepared for the adrenalin dump. I had to force myself to work through it. It was hard, I was shaking. Got kudos from the physician who saw the guy after he was medivac'd on how we fixed him up. And there was no one shooting at me. Had a guy go into anaphylactic shock from some allergy after that, and had to maintain his airway or he would die. I was quite excitable through the whole thing.

Then a few years later I ended up on the scene of three auto accidents in the space of three months. I had a neighbor fall off of a balcony, and had to assess him on the scene.

Each one was stressful, and filled me with fear and self-doubt, not for me but for the other guy. You just deal with each one as it comes. Only then do you know how you will react. It takes an act of the will, sometimes a very hard act of the will to do what you need to do. Repetition is the only way to get through it. Training is one thing. Reality is another.

I know how I will react to a medical emergency after that. Being shot at or threatened? A police chase ended up on my front yard, with the guy ramming the police car and driving over front lawns. I thought he would go through my house. I stood at the door ready to take him on after securing my wife and kids in the farthest room in about 3 seconds. Luckily, I didn't have to. Not any situation I had drilled for. But it happened and I was there and forced myself to think through it. This was the event that convinced me to become a gun owner. I think the biggest thing is to force yourself to think and to act when all of your instincts are telling you to run. It's not easy, and if your brain doesn't give you the opportunity to make that effort, you can't do it. It is neurologically impossible unless your brain keeps that one circuit open, and you make the decision to utilize it.

happybrew

 

[anythingshiny]

I agree with Grossman's basic concept of wolf/sheep and sheepdog. It may be a bit oversimplified but the concept is spot on in my opinion. You and I can pick em out of a crowd in a heartbeat...and they ARE the ones to run TO a fight, to DO something when others either freeze or cower. There is no political bent or danger to the Republic by means of this simple classification..it is a round hole to fit a personality into..no different from "type A" or "Gemini".

While not the tin-foil beanie wearing crowd, most folks carrying a gun are sheepdogs. They are looking out for their own safety and would prob "step up to the plate" in a time of crisis.

Would they make text book perfect tactical decisions during the crisis? Prob not...but they will DO something other than cower and wet themselves.

 

[LongRider]

Fortunately, the axe-mishap wasn't quite so drastic. Think he buried the head a few inches in his thigh or something, probably lucky he missed the femoral artery.

As aside. When I was 16 I cut my femoral artery with a hatchet working a summer job for DNR. It was over 45 min before I made it to a clinic. True story, I know you are supposed to be dead in ten seconds. I nicked it with the hatchet sat down and did the man down call. They put a compression bandage in it and we think it ripped as I was walking to the crummy Used every bandage we had keeping compression on it as we drove off of the mountain. When I walked into the clinic blood would come gushing out of the top of my boot, every step I took leaving a perfect foot print in the carpet. For some reason that image is still crystal clear in my memory. Dr was freaked because I would not hold still every time he tried to connect the artery I would jerk because it tugged right under my groin. He never was able to hook it back up. A net work of veins grew to connect it after awhile.
I have had a few near death experiences and have been DOA twice. I do not know that you can prepare. I do know that you can not let the fear win. Anger can be your friend but don't let it blind you. Being trained is your best asset wether it be motorcycle racing or combat. Never stop thinking never stop fighting

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Never stop thinking never stop fighting

That's right on.

And, JeffWhite is right on that you must stress inoculate, so that you can fight for your life and not just stand there with your mouth open.

CT is right with his previous list in his great post.

It all leads to the concept that you not give your life up, but you make someone take it away from you as you fight them for everything you're worth.
Hard to do that if you can't move or don't know what to do. Or worse, you know what to do but are frozen on the threshold of that decision that will both change and save your life.

 

[mljdeckard]

You're never ready. You just run out of time. This is why it's not possible to train too much. Those of us who are in the profession of arms can tell you that even within the military, there are career soldiers you wouldn't want to go to war with, kids who WANT to go do some damage, guys who have mowed over dozens of other men in combat who never give it another thought, and people who see one child bleeding and they completely lock up.

I have thought about this a lot. First of all, we don't fight this way anymore, where if you are in an infantry platoon, during war, you can expect to see half of your guys get killed. We just have such an overwhelming degree of technical superiority, it's not necessary to fight that way anymore. I think of being in the Ardennes, frozen in for a week or two, no food, no ammo, surrounded, praying that fate decides soon so you won't be cold anymore. After you have engaged the enemy several times, you come to the reality that someone is going to die. You do everything you can to make sure it's them and not you. If it's not possible to come out alive, you hope that it's fast, and not in vain. That's about as good as it gets.

 

[Cosmoline]

Would they make text book perfect tactical decisions during the crisis? Prob not...but they will DO something other than cower and wet themselves.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is it assumes anyone running away from trouble is a "coward." Running *to* a fight is often a great way to get yourself killed. Caution must always be exercised. If you need to use deadly force, the very best way to do it is from behind a large piece of concrete from as far away as you can get. Let your bullets run to the fight if at all possible. Bullets are braver than I am, and don't care about getting mashed into pancakes. I'd like to be a smart sheep behind cover with a really big rifle. If I have no choice I will be "brave" and expose myself, but only if time permits no other alternative. I think that's the only sensible approach, even if it's deemed "cowardly" by some. I've seen what bullets do, and I don't want to get shot. Or hit by a car. Or trampled by a moose. Or mauled by a bruin. Which is why I try to avoid all of these things.

 

[TallPine]

I know it's not the same thing as a deadly fight, but many times I have had to take a dangerous tree (or more often, group of trees, all leaning together) knowing that if I didn't plan and execute my work just right that I was going to get seriously hurt or killed. I just took a deep breath and did it. Trees aren't trying to kill you but they can do it anyway.

More recently, running towards the flames of wildfires. We train in every way we can to be safe, but stuff happens. A couple years back, I was down in the bottom of a deep dark timbered coulee scratching and holding a handline, when some idiots on another dept. decided to do a burnout. A few trees torched and that created a wind that dang near blew up big time. We weren't yet in really big danger but it had all the signs of a bad situation - no escape route and no safety zone. I thought to myself "this it it" and rather calmly started looking around for a good place to deploy my fire shelter if it came to that. I wasn't really scared at all - it sort of seemed unreal at the time that we had a good chance of getting burned over soon. Fortunately, the fire died down again back to the previous creeping behavior.

 

[ezypikns]

I don't mean to quibble here....

So to those that have never been on a deer hunt

I don't quite see what this has to do with combat. Never had to shoot at anyone, and thank God no one's ever shot at me, but I've shot lots of deer. Extreme excitement indeed, but I've never had one return fire yet.

 

[mccook8]

During my final enlistment period in the Army, I deployed to three hostile places. The last of those was Iraq, back in 91.

During the run-up to Desert Storm, I'd been following the news. Some of you remember all the gloom and doom: 4th largest army in the world, combat-hardened troops, chemical weapons galore, yada yada yada.

My other deployments were during "peacetime", though they didn't seem very peaceful to me. THIS, on the other hand, was very likely to be a WAR, which any rational person would believe to be FAR more dangerous.

So, once negotiations failed, and the war was obviously on, I was SURE - I mean absolutely CERTAIN beyond a shadow of a doubt - that I would not return home, that I WOULD die there.

.....and I accepted that, and went about doing what needed to be done. Basically, my mindset became, "OK, I'm done for. But, until then, I've got work to do, and others are depending upon me."

Not so much as a scratch. Didn't fire a single round into anything other than a berm, and didn't have a single round fired at me (except for a couple of Scuds that were shot out of the sky by Patriot batteries).

In retrospect, Desert Storm was the easiest of my deployments. Mind you, there were some side effects of my mindset which created some relationship issues later on, but we're celebrating our 24th anniversary in a couple of months, so that wasn't insurmountable either.

 

[happybrew]

During my final enlistment period in the Army, I deployed to three hostile places. The last of those was Iraq, back in 91.

During the run-up to Desert Storm, I'd been following the news. Some of you remember all the gloom and doom: 4th largest army in the world, combat-hardened troops, chemical weapons galore, yada yada yada.

I remember that doom and gloom. They were predicting ten thousand deaths on our side, the news media that is. I wanted to volunteer. I was in the medical NCO school at the time, and I figured with the reports on the news I should stay in the advanced training course to be able to do more good. It was a reserve component school which lasted about a year on weekends. It was over in short order, and I didn't have the opportunity to go. My fiance at the time, now my wife, was happy with that. I have mixed feelings. I wish we had finished the job then.

happybrew