Reality in Strategies and Tactics

[Jeff White]

The Strategies and Tactics forum is the place on THR where we discuss conflict, both armed and unarmed, training for conflict to include discussion of training techniques and methods and reviews of classes and instructors. It's also appropriate to discuss the legality of situations in which one might defend him or herself and others. Discussion on how to protect your property from unwanted intrusion are also on topic.

Often a member posts a scenario that he or she wishes to discuss. Scenarios are a good way to learn things. It's not part of the mission of the forum to discuss outlandish and totally unrealistic scenarios. Threads that are based on end of the world scenarios will be closed or deleted. There are plenty of forums that people interested in that sort of thing can go to.

For example:

What gun and how much ammo do I need for a civil disturbance or the end of the world? Is not on topic and will be closed or deleted.

What should I carry in my pockets, pack, car, have in my house....in case of a car breakdown, I get lost in the wilderness, there is a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, and what have other members done in those situations. Are on topic and welcome.

Basically, if there is a real likelyhood that it could happen to a member it's on topic.

If you want to type out your fantasy of standing in your yard, ankle deep in brass, the bodies of the rioters, outlaw motorcycle gang members, crazed tweakers, insert name of evildoers here stacked like cordwood against your fence in the predawn mist, with the girls from the Hooters restuarant down the street huddle behind you and ask you to father their children.....Go somewhere else with it. Take it general and write a good short story and get other members to contribute ideas...but don't do it here.

Home Invasions and Body Armor

Both of these subjects have been done to death here. A search of the forum will get you plenty of information. For some reason home invasion is one of the most popular subjects, but in reality it's probably a situation that you are least likely to have to face.

We will not discuss how to defeat body armor. Discussions on what body armor is made of, what it protects against and if you need it in your situation are on topic. Threads on defeating body armor clad criminals are not on topic. If you are faced with someone attacking you wearing body armor, you should use a rifle or shoot for the head. That's it, that's the only response that we'll talk about.

The last thing we need is for someone to read a thread on defeating body armor, get on e-bay and buy some then try to develop a load for his .32 ACP WWII bringback Fromer Stop that will defeat level IIIA body armor so he can post the answer in the thread. Such experimenting could be dangerous.

Strategies and Tactics is a serious forum where serious subjects are discussed. It's time to change the noise to signal ratio.

Jeff

 

[trhodes446]

This forum

Thanks for the opportunity to ask questions and post here. I live in a rural part of a larger city covered by the Sheriff's dept. Last night, our house was broken into around 3am. Fortunately, we havea perimeter alarm that went off when the dirt bag tried to get in thru the garage. The audible alarm went off and the Sheriff's office was called by the Alarm Co with a 25 min response time.

I have long been an advocate of the 2nd Amendment and protecting my family. When the alarm went off, I was able to access my hand gun and tactical SG and prepared a defensive position near my kids bed rooms. The sound of the alarm scared the dirt bag off, but I would have --at a moment's notice--sent him to his next life.

The question is: what other things should I be thinking off when it comes to home defense? I know there is pros and cons about flash bangs, etc. Thoughts>

 

[fireandforget]

If you want to type out your fantasy of standing in your yard, ankle deep in brass, the bodies of the rioters, outlaw motorcycle gang members, crazed tweakers, insert name of evildoers here stacked like cordwood against your fence in the predawn mist, with the girls from the Hooters restuarant down the street huddle behind you and ask you to father their children.....Go somewhere else with it. Take it general and write a good short story and get other members to contribute ideas...but don't do it here.

Jeff White, that was good.

The bottom line is winning. What is winning ? The previous post concerning the break in to me is a win. You protected yr family, the alarm was sufficient. If that wasn't enough u may have had to use deadly force 2 prevent harm to your family.Responsible gun owner action.

If a drunk teeneger tries 2 steal yr lawn furniture and your response is to break out a class III m-60 and appear on the roof in order to gain tactical high ground, and begin to engage hostiles firing 50 rounds bursts ala john rambo. Minutes later the police arrive The teenager is going to the morgue and u go jail. Loss.

My point have a complete plan, not just for doomsday scenario(the UN consolidates all forces and attacks the continental US would qualify) but practical application. Example, get sensor lights outside, get some type of audible alarm, fuctionally locking doors and windows, a safe for valuables,car alarm, keep cell phone accessible. I have an OC can(pepper spray), an asp, zipties(handcuffs), I think that would handle 99.9% of any problem, however I also have an ar-15, an 870, and an old modl 19 .357 Magnum, not an armory but will get the job done. I shoot frequently, know the laws and act responsibly. I will do anything to protect my life, however I don't want 2 fight major legal battles, just my .02

 

[Hardware]

If you want to type out your fantasy of standing in your yard, ankle deep in brass, the bodies of the rioters, outlaw motorcycle gang members, crazed tweakers, insert name of evildoers here stacked like cordwood against your fence in the predawn mist, with the girls from the Hooters restuarant down the street huddle behind you and ask you to father their children.....Go somewhere else with it.

But... but... freshly fired ankle deep brass is so warm and snuggly!

Point taken Jeff. Besides, mordechaianiliewicz has all the zombie fans mesmerized over in General Gun Discussions. Whoops, that reminds me, gotta go see if he's posted another chapter.

 

[JP1954]

Jeff you seem to be on the same page (or at least in the same chapter) as me. Years ago when I made a decision to keep a firearm in the house for protection, I did a lot of serious thinking. The first thing I thought is the fact that taking a human life is near the top of the list of experiences that I hope and pray I never experience. No matter how legally and/or morally justifiable
the circumstance, I cannot possibly imagine feeling good about it. That said, I have adopted the following rules of engagement at my household. I welcome your comments and others on it. I am not above thinking that it can't be improved. If I sense the possibility of a prowler, I grab the cordless phone, flashlight plugged into the wall, my robe and my 1911 and the 2 clips I have well hidden. If I become aware of someone outside messing with our vehicles or prowling about, I would first do a bed check and make sure all my family members are accounted for. If such is the case I would then call 911 and stay inside. I'm in an urban setting and the cavalry I believe would be here soon. If not, I would rather pay an insurance deductible than kill or be killed by confronting the BG. If I think someone has enterred my dwelling or is attempting to enter, I would attempt to do the bed checks first depending on the circumstances. If I complete the bed checks I know anyone else I come across does not belong here. If due to the circumstances I am not able to complete the bed checks, I must proceed with extreme caution as the possibility exists that it is one of my sons coming in late. If I become convinced that an intruder is inside or attempting entry, I call 911 and take up a defensive position. If I spot an intruder from my defensive position, I will yell at him to get out of my house. I will warn him that if he approaches me I will kill him but if he leaves I will not shoot him in the back. I know there are a lot of people out there that say you should just shoot on sight or hold the BG for the police and on and on. The way I see it, I have not taken an oath to uphold the law. I don't make my living apprehending felons. My sole objective is to defend myself and my family. Period. If the BG turns and leaves, there is a good chance that the cavalry will catch him as I am certain that they will be hauling ass to my house under those circumstances. Even if they don't, I strongly doubt that BG would want to make a return visit. At the end of the day me and mine are safe and I don't have to live with the fact that I killed someone. If the other possibility happens and the BG declines my offer of a safe egress and charges me, at least I will have the solace of knowing that I gave him the option to live or die. It would be easier knowing it was his decision to end his life than my decision to take his life.
I welcome any feedback on my two cents worth.

 

[gunnie]

attn: JP1954

bravo, JP. my sentiments exactly. my sentiments tactically.

i feel that ANYONE who has decided their lives and the lives of their loved ones are worth more than that of a scumbag perp should read Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme".

he makes the valid, but financially archaic point (OLD book)that shooting a perp, within legal self defence parameters will cost one about 20K in legal fees.

here in tejas, it is now assumed [by law] that a perp who breaks into your house IS a threat to the lives of those who live there. hence, the legal burden of shooting a nocturnal intruder is GREATLY decreased. as would be the legal fees for legal CYA operations post-shoot.

still, even if my uncle were a lawyer, i'd opt to let the perp retreat-whenever possible.

not just legally and financially derived conclusions. i also pray i never have to kill another person. literally.

gunnie


PS- get a handgun in your favorite flavor, with a 1913 rail on it for a "Surefire X-200" light. is a spendy unit, waranteed for everything but batteries, for life. besides, what's your life worth to you? one short shot from this lumen intensive puppy will leave the perp legally blind for about five minutes at night.

per Ayoob's book, pick the place in you house best protected against bullets as a meeting area for family members. have a pre-determined password for safe entry among all family members. keep supplies that one may need stored there, cell phone, ammo, spare weapons, medical supplies-etc.

 

[fearless leader]

Say it with authority

I also don't relish the spilling of blood in my home. I knew someone that had to once, and he described the smell as "unforgettable" and hard to remove.

Your alarm is a good idea,for you, but I can never remember to turn the damned thing off before I let my other alarm out to pee.
My German Shepard is my "at home" alarm. He lets me know if something is amiss. He's old and nearly toothless, but he still barks.

If your BG had not have retreated and gone for easier prey, you may consider the shotgun.

I was at home one night when a BG attempted to kick in my door. I only had to pick up the 870 hidden in my room and rack the slide to ward my BG off.
I never even saw him. Actual firing not necessary.
That sound is accepted in more places than Visa and Mastercard combined.

 

[LJA]

Evan Marshall - Marshall's Shooting Center

Hi ya'll - I just came back from Evan Marshall's annual training event at his incredible new facility in Midland, Michigan - Marshall's Shooting Center. Had the incredible fortune to spend a few hours "shooting" the bull with Evan and got to know a lot of really good and dedicated folks. Watched Vyse gelatin being shot with all manner of 45 auto bullets - and the Corbon DPX was boringly reliable in all instances. Mike Shovel of Corbon was there and is a terrific guy. Along with lots of other things learned, I think I learned the greatest lesson of all - the bullet doesn't matter a bit. Your ability to deal with surprise and your will to fight and win is the name of the game. A miss with HST is infinitely worse than a brain stem shot with hardball. Evan, John Farnam and Ed Lovette made that lesson clear in their own unique ways. You can punch paper all day and think you are a pretty good shot (I used to) but my first run through Farnam's carbine/pistol course was downright humiliating. I hit the BG five times on the left side of his sweatshirt after my rifle went "click" (planned event) and I had to draw and fire my 1911. Never even saw the sights. I encourage all of you to check-out this year's "Hoot & Shoot" on Evan's site - stoppingpower.net.

 

[btucker1947]

Self Defense

I taught self Defense for over 35 years and I had always taught people , that no matter what kind of weapon you have, every situation is going to be different.
A plan is important for home invasion defense and some other situations, but all those things will happen so fast.&%^^ You have to be ready in a split second. Like I say every situation is different. Be careful and when deadly force is required you must be mentally prepared to use it. Also most importantly a Soldier with a Combat Infantry Badge, told me once that a man who kills, when there is an alternative, is a fool. Your best weapon is your brain. Common sense and necessary force will be the key factors in any event.

 

[BruceRDucer]

home supplies besides firearms

Anyone have a generalized list of emergency or short term survival supplies for the home?

Like, food stuffs, medical supplies, hardware....anything?

 

[btucker1947]

Emergency Supplies

Bruce, Check out Walmarts, they got everything you'll need.

 

[gunnie]

BruceRDucer part I

not a short term list, and NOT short either. couldn't relocate the link this came from so sent the whole meal deal. a crash course in reality maintnence from a man who has been there.

gunnie

PS-full article exceeded forum length rules-parts II and III to follow.

BEGINS:My brother visited Argentina a few weeks ago. He’s been living in Spain for a few years now.Within the first week, he got sick, some kind of strong flu, even though climate isn’t that cold and he took care of himself.Without a doubt he got sick because there are lots of new viruses in my country that can’t be found in 1st world countries.The misery and famine lead us to a situation where, even though you have food, shelter and health care, most of others don’t, and therefore they get sick and spread the diseases all over the region.What got me started on this post is the fact that I actually saw this coming, and posted on the subject here at Frugal’s, months before the new viruses spread over the country and the news started talking about this new, health emergency, which proves that talking, thinking and sharing ideas with like minded people (you guys), does help to see things coming and prepare for them with enough time.So I started thinking about several issues, what I learned (either the hard way or thanks to this forum) after all these years of living in a collapsed country that is trying to get out an economical disaster and everything that comes along with it.Though my English is limited, I hope I’m able to transmit the main ideas and concepts, giving you a better image of what you may have to deal with some day, if the economy collapses in your country.Here is what I have so far:URBAN OR COUNTRY?Someone once asked me how did those that live in the country fare. If they were better off than city dwellers.As always there are no simple answers. Wish I could say country good, city bad, but I can’t. Because if I have to be completely honest, and I intend to be so, there are some issues that have to be analyzed, specially security.Of course that those that live in the country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals, such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard was enough to be light years ahead of those in the cities.Chickens, eggs and rabbits would provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables and fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, and some eggs or a rabbit could be traded for flower to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.Of course that there are exceptions.For example, some provinces up north have desert climate, and it almost never rains. It is almost impossible to live of the land, and animals require food and water you have to buy. Those guys had it bad, no wonder the northern provinces suffer the most in my country.Those that live in cities, well they have to manage as they can. Since food prices went up about %200-%300. People would cut expenses wherever they could so they could buy food. Some ate whatever they could, they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved.When it comes to food, cities suck in a crisis.It is usually the lack of food or the impossibility to acquire it that starts the rioting and looting when TSHTF.When it comes to security things get even more complicated.Forget about shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old kids that pretend to be grown ups on the internet.Some facts:1)Those that want to harm you/steal from you don’t come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.3) They wont come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me “They looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are”, honestly, I would have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but don’t expect them to dress like in the movies.4)A man with a wife and two or three kids can’t set up a watch. I don’t care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.The best alarm system anyone can have in a farm are dogs. But dogs can get killed and poisoned. A friend of mine had all four dogs poisoned on his farm one night, they all died.After all these years I learned that even though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely violent home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and tortured with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches.Big cities aren’t much safer for the survivalist that decides to stay in the city. He will have to face express kidnappings, robberies, and pretty much risking getting shot for what’s in his pockets or even his clothes.So, where to go? The concrete jungle is dangerous and so is living away from it all, on your own.The solution is to stay away from the cities but in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small community.Some may think that having neighbors within “shouting” distance means loosing your privacy and freedom, but it’s a price that you have to pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times…. Grow up.SERVICESWhatever sort of scenario you are dealing with, services are more than likely to either suffer in quality or disappear all together. Think ahead of time, analyze possible SHTF scenarios and which service should be affected by it in your area.Think about the most likely scenario but also think outside the box. What’s more likely? A tornado? But a terrorist attack isn’t as crazy as you though it would be a few years ago, isn’t it?Also analyze the consequences of those services going down. If there is no power then you need to do something about all that meat you have in the fridge, you can dry it or can it. Think about the supplies you would need for these tasks before you actually need them.You have a complete guide on how to prepare the meat on you computer… how will you get it out of there if there is no power? Print everything that you consider important.WATERNo one can last too long without water. The urban survivalist may find that the water is of poor quality, in which case he can make good use of a water filter, or that there is no water available at all.When this happens, a large city were millions live will run out of bottled water within minutes.In my case, tap water isn’t very good. I can see black little particles and some other stuff that looks like dead algae. Taste isn’t that bad. Not good but I know that there are parts of the country where it is much worse. To be honest, a high percentage of the country has no potable water at all.If you can build a well, do so, set it as your top of the list priority as a survivalist.Water comes before firearms, medicines and even food.Save as much water as you can. Use plastic bottles, refill soda bottles and place them in a cool place, preferably inside a black garbage bag to protect it from sun light.The water will pick some plastic taste after a few months, but water that tastes a little like plastic is far way better than no water at all.What ever the kind of SHTF scenario you are dealing with, water will suffer. In my case the economical crash created problems with the water company, that reduces the maintenance and quality in order to reduce costs and keep their income in spite of the high prices they have to pay for supplies and equipment, most of which comes from abroad, and after the 2001 crash, costs 3 times more.As always, the little guy gets to pay for it.Same would go for floods or chemical or biological attacks. Water requires delicate care and it will suffer when the SHTF in one way or another.In this case, when you still have tap water, a quality filter is in order, as well as a pump if you can have one. A manual pump would be ideal as well if possible.Estimate that you need a approximately a gallon per person per day. Try to have at least two-four weeks worth of water.More would be preferable.POWERI spent WAY to much time without power for my own taste. Power has always been a problem in my country, even before the 2001 crisis.The real problem starts when you spend more than just a few hours without light. Just after the SHTF in 2001 half the country went without power for 3 days.Buenos Aires was one big dark grave. People got caught on elevators, food rot, hospitals that only had a few hours worth of fuel for their generators ran out of power.Without power, days get to be a lot shorter. Once the sun sets there is not much you can do.I read under candle light and flashlight light and your head starts to hurt after a while. You can work around the house a little bit but only as long as you don’t need power tools.Crime also increases once the lights go out, so whenever you have to go somewhere in a black out, carry the flashlight on one hand and a handgun on the other.Summarizing, being in a city without light turn to be depressing after a while.I spent my share of nights, alone, listening to the radio, eating canned food and cleaning my guns under the light of my LED head lamp. Then I got married, had a son, and found out that when you have loved ones around you black outs are not as bad. The point is that family helps morale on these situations.A note on flashlights. Have two or three head LED lights. They are not expensive and are worth their weight in gold. A powerful flashlight is necessary, something like a big Maglite or better yet a SureFire, specially when you have to check your property for intruders. But for more mundane stuff like preparing food, going to the toilet or doing stuff around the house, the LED headlamp is priceless. Try washing the dishes on the dark while holding a 60 lumen flashlight on one hand and you’ll know what I mean. LEDs also have the advantage of lasting for almost an entire week of continuous use and the light bulb lasts forever.Rechargeable batteries are a must (ed. Get a solar powered battery charger) or else you’ll end up broke if lights go out often.Have a healthy amount of spare quality batteries and try to standardize as much as you can.I have 12 Samsung NM 2500Mh AA and 8 AAA 800mh for the headlamps. I use D cell plastic adaptors in order to use AA batteries on my 3 D cell Maglite. This turned out to work quite well, better than I expected.I also keep about 2 or 3 packs of regular, Duracell batteries just in case. These are supposed to expire around 2012, so I can forget about them until I need them.Rechargeable NM batteries have the disadvantage of loosing power after a period of time, so keep regular batteries as well and check the rechargeable ones every once in a while.After all these years of problems with power, what two items I would love to have?1) The obvious. A generator. I carried my fridge food to my parents house way to many times on the past. Too bad I can’t afford one right now.2) A battery charger that has both solar panel and a small crank. They are not available here. I saw that they are relatively inexpensive in USA. Do yourself a favor and get one or two of these. Even if they don’t charge as well as regular ones, I’m sure it will put out enough power to charge batteries for LED lamps at least.GASGas has decreased in quality as well, there is little gas. Try to have an electric oven in case you have to do without it.If both electricity and gas go down, one of those camping stoves can work as well, if you keep a good supply of gas cans.The ones that work with liquid fuel seem to be better on the long run, since they can use different types of fuel.You can only store a limited amount of compressed gas and once you ran out of it, you are on your own if stores are closed of they sold them out.Anyway, a city that goes without gas and light for more than two weeks is a death trap, get out of there before it’s too late.A DIFFERENT MENTALITY.I was watching the People & Art channel with my wife the other night. It was a show where they film a couple for a given period of time and some people vote on who is the one with the worst habits, the one they find more annoying.We were in our bed, and this is when I usually fall asleep but since the guy was a firearms police instructor I was interested and managed to stay awake.At one point the guy’s wife said that she found annoying that her husband spent 500 dollars a month on beauty products for himself. 500 USD on facial cream, special shampoo and conditioner, as well as having his nails polished!If you are that guy and happen to be reading this, or if you know him, I’m sorry, but what an idiot!!“500 USD, that’s a small generator or a gun and a few boxes of ammo” I told my wife.“That’s two months worth of food” she said.We were each thinking of a practical use for that money, the money this guy was practically throwing away.Once the SHTF, money is no longer measured in money, but you start seeing it as the necessary goods it can buy. Stuff like food, medicine, gas, or the private medical service bill.To me, spending 500 dollars on beauty products, and to make it worse, on a guy? That’s simply not acceptable.The way I see it, someone with that mentality can’t survive a week without a credit card, no use in even considering a SHTF scenario.And this guy is a firearms instructor?… probably the kind of guy that will say that a handgun is only used to fight his way to his rifle… and his facial night cream…Once you experience the lack of stuff you took for granted, like food , medicines, your set of priorities change all of a sudden.For example, I had two wisdom tooth removed last year. On both occasions I was prescribed with antibiotics and strong Ibuprofen for the pain.I took the antibiotics( though I did buy two boxes with the same recipe just to keep one box just in case) but I didn’t use the Ibuprofen, I added it to my pile of medicines.Why? because medicines are not always available and I’m not sure if they will be available in the future.Sure, it hurt like hell, but pain alone isn’t going to kill you, so I sucked it up. Good for building up character if you ask me .Make sacrifices so as to ensure a better future, that’s the mentality you should have if you want to be prepared.There’s stuff that is “nice to have” that has to be sacrificed to get the indispensable stuffThere’s stuff that is not “basic need stuff” but it’s also important in one way or another.My wife goes to the hairdresser once every month or two. It’s not life or death, but it does make her feel better and it boosts her morale.I buy a game for the Xbox or a movie to watch with my wife every once in awhile, just to relax. 7 or 10 dollars a month are not going to burn a hole in my pocket.Addictions such as alcohol, drugs or even cigarettes should be avoided by the survivalist.They are bad for your health, cost a lot of money that could be much better spent, and create an addiction to something that may not be available in the future.Who will have to tolerate your grouchy mood when your brand of smokes is no longer imported after the SHTF?

 

[gunnie]

part II

PART IIGRAY/BLACK MARKETOnce the SHTF the black/grey market will take no time to appear all around you.In my country, grey markets were even accepted in the end.At first it was all about trading skills or craft products for food. Districts and towns would form their own barter markets, and created their own tickets, similar to money, that was used to trade.This didn’t last long. Those tickets were easy to make on your home computer, there was no control and eventually people went back to paper money.These markets were usually placed on warehouses or empty land, and were managed by some wise guy and a few thugs or hired security.Anyone can go rent a kiosk inside these markets for about 50-100 pesos (about 20-30 dollars) a day and sell his goods and services.Piece within these markets is usually respected… lets just say that these managers don’t call the police if someone tries anything funny, like stealing, fighting or taking advantage of women. That’s not good for their business and anyone that tries to mess with their business finds out how much pain the human body can actually experiment or gets a free ticket to meet the Lord.Sometimes even uniformed cops manage security on these markets, for a small fee of course.As always, you still have to be careful. They may still try to pick your pockets or even attack you once you leave the market. Once you leave the market, you are on your own, as always.This markets evolved and now a lot of different products are available.Today I visited my local market, a warehouse that is fairly well set up and cleanly managed. They had problems for selling stolen merchandise and fake Brand name clothes a few days ago.What can be found at a local markets? Mostly food and clothing. Some have more variety than others but cheese, canned food, spices, honey, eggs, fruits, vegetables, beer, wine and cured meat are generally available, same as bakery products and pasta. These are less expensive than those found at supermarkets. Fresh fish is sometimes available but not always, people don’t trust much products that need refrigeration, and they get those at supermarkets instead.Clothes are also popular and you can find copies of brand name clothes, imitations, or even original stolen new clothes, the same goes for shoes and snickers. Children clothes, underwear, socks, sheets and towels are all very popular.Some sell toys, but they are always China made, mostly poor quality though there are some few exceptions.Others sell tools, also made in China can be found as well, but they are of poor quality.Some offer their services and repair stuff or offer work as handyman.You would be amazed of the junk that these guys manage to fix: TVs, CD players, Power tools, etc. They even manage to solder the small integrated circuits boards sometimes. Give one of these guys a screw driver and a bar of chocolate and he will fix a nuclear submarine.After food and clothes, the 3rd most popular item has to be CDs and DVDs, movies, music, play station 2 and Xbox games, programs, it all ends up there just one or two days after the official release in USA. Seems that they have e guy hidden under Bill Gate’s desk or something.Anyway, almost everything can be found there, and if you want, you can ask around, talk to the right guy and buy illegal stuff like drugs or black market guns and ammo. The quality of the drugs is questionable, of course, and a lot of addicts die from the mixtures these guys sell. Guns are mostly FM High Powers, Surplus 1911s and Colt .45s, Sistemas, and old Colt Detective revolvers in 38 special that found their way from police and military armories into the black market. Condition isn’t very good but if you have money you’ll be amazed of what you can end up with. Everything that is used by the military and police, including SMGs a, Browning 50 BMG Machine guns, and even frag grenades, is available in the black market, if the customer has the amount of money and a little patience, of course. The big guns may take a while, but the handguns and grenades are readily available.GOLD!!Someone hit me in the head please because I messed up about the gold issue.Everyone wants to buy gold! “I buy gold. Pay cash” signs are everywhere, even on TV! I can’t believe I’m that silly!I just didn’t relate it to what I read here because they deal with junk gold, like jewellery, either stolen or sold because they needed the money, not the gold coins that you guys talk about. No one pays for the true value of the stuff, so bigWARNING! Sign on people that are buying gold coins.Since it is impossible to determine the true mineral percentage of gold, small shops and dealers will pay for it as regular jewellery gold.What I would do if I were you: Besides gold coins, buy a lot of small gold rings and other jewellery. They should be less expensive than gold coins, and if the SHTF bad, you’ll not be loosing money, selling premium quality gold coins for the price of junk gold.If I could travel back in time, I’d buy a small bag worth of gold rings.Small time thieves will snatch gold chains right out of your neck and sell them at these small dealers found everywhere. This is VERY common at train stations, subways and other crowded areas.So, my advice, if you are preparing for a small economical crisis, gold coins make sense. You will keep the value of the stuff and be able to sell it for its actual cost to gold dealers or maybe other survivalists that know the true value of the item.In my case, gold coins would have been an excellent investment, saving me from loosing money when the local economy crashed. Even though things are bad, I can go to a bank down town and get paid for what a gold coin is truly worth, same goes for pure silver. But where I live, in my local are small time dealers will only pay you the value of junk gold, no matter what kind of gold you have. So, I’d have to say that if the SHTF is bad, gold jewellery is a better trade item than gold coins.Forgive me for not talking about this before, but I didn’t realize this until today, when I visited my local market warehouse and saw a “Buy Gold” sign.PART III: GUNS, AMMO AND OTHER GEARAfter the SHTF in 2001, only the most narrow minded, brain washed, butterfly IQ level idiots believed that the police would protect them from the crime wave that followed the collapse of our economy.A lot of people that could have been considered antigun before, ran to the gun shops, seeking advise on how to defend themselves and their families.They would buy a 38 revolver, a box of ammo, and leave it in the closet, probably believing that it would magically protect them from intruders.Oh, maybe you don’t think that firearms are really necessary or your beliefs do not allow you to buy a tool designed to kill people. So you probably ask yourself, is a gun really necessary when the SHTF? Will it truly make a difference?Having gone through a SHTF scenario myself, total economical collapse in the year 2001, and still dealing with the consequences, 5 years later, I feel I can answer that question.YES, you need a gun, pepper spray, a machete, a battle axe, club with a rusty nail sticking out of it, or whatever weapon you can get hold of.A LOT has been written on survival weapons. Everyone that is into armed survival has his or her own idea of the ideal gun battery. Some more oriented to a hunting point of view, others only as self defense means and others consider a little of both, and look for general purpose weapons.Talking about guns, there is one special subject I want to rectify, and it’s the point on what’s the primary weapon for the survivalist, specially a urban survivalist that has to function in a society, yes, even after the SHTF.The primary defensive weapon for the survivalist is his HANDGUN. It’s the weapon that stays with him when he is doing his business around town of working on the field.The survivalist IS NOT a soldier, even though you are a soldier or you once were the meanest mother on the battle filed, your home town is not a battlefield and it wont be, even if the SHTF. A LOT of water has to go under the bridge until the situation gets to a point where you can calmly walk down the street with a rifle on your shoulder.People, if you are interested in real world SHTF situation, and you want to prepared for the real deal, then understand that this isn’t black or white.You wake up one day and listen on the radio that the economy collapsed and that the stock market closed indefinitely.What do you do? You still have to go to the office/work/whatever .Kiss the wife good bye and walk to the office with your AR across your back, or across your chest, Israeli style, ready to shoot? You wont get far. Someone will shoot you or throw you in jail, or in a mental institution.What I’m trying to explain, is that its ok to prepare for China invading you country, Germans and UN or Martians. That is the extreme, less likely worst case scenario.There is an infinity spectrum of gray between the black and white. White being your average normal day and black being total TEOTWAWKI, lizard men invading the planet.Rifles do have a place in the survivalist’s arsenal, and a very important one. But you have to understand that 90% of the time, the handgun will be the weapon you have available when you need one.You cant compare to a trooper in Iraq that has his weapon with him at all times.I ask you how many soldiers do you know that keep wearing cammo and totting their M4s around town when they return home?What works for war does not work for the survivalist, especially the urban survivalist.Even if you live in a retreat far from town, you have to work, don’t you? Or do you have employees that take care of all your mundane tasks, leaving you all day to keep watch with your rifle ready?A soldier is part of a huge machine, HIS job is to carry that rifle, while others take care of other needs. A survivalist, one that is not part of a large survivalist group, has no one to cover for him.When a new guy looks for advice on what to get for defense, some will recommend a rifle or shotgun as a first defensive weapon.Lets say race riots start in this guy’s city. He still has to go to work every day. What is he supposed to do? Shove his pump shotgun in his pocket? A handgun, even though less powerful, can be used for home defense AND go with you wherever you need to go.If the place floods, he can still hop into an evacuation boat without leaving his weapon behind. I’m sure no rescue team will pick you if you are carrying a long arm. They’ll ask you to leave it behind for sure.What if your government, realizing that TSHTF and that they lost control of the events, bans all firearms indefinitely? Don’t know about you, but if things are that bad, I’d like to be armed. You can hide a handgun under a jacket. You cant hide a long arm under your clothes.I think it was Clint Smith who said that the handgun is only used to fight his way to his rifle. Man! that sounds “macho”.I’d love to see him walking into Walmart with his tactical M4, taking the subway, visiting the doctor or going to the bank.“Over here Mr. Smith, you can hang you M4 right next to my coat” I don’t think so.Guys, unless you have your own shooting school, you do not get to carry your rifle to work.OK, now that I got that out of my chest lets look at some options.

 

[gunnie]

part III

Handguns: Revolver or Pistol?Pistol. All the way.Yes, I saw the video of the guy that accurately emptied his S&W in ½ a second. I also saw the shooting range and the crowd behind him, watching the event. Can he shoot and reload that way if he is in his car, driving with one hand and shooting with the other, while a bunch of scum bags in another car are shooting at him?Hey, maybe he can. I know I can’t. Can you?Generally speaking, the revolver is more difficult to master than the pistol. The double action is hard and it affects speed and accuracy. It can be done, but I found that pistols are easier, as did many shooters.Also, even though they seem to be more simple, revolvers are not as rugged as service pistols, the mechanisms that cycles the cylinder and cocks the hammer is both complicated and fragile compared to auto pistols.Before anyone starts casting evil voodoo spells at me for insulting their prized S&W or Ruger: I own revolvers and like shooting them, I just don’t think they are the best option for self defense, and I see that everyone I talk to in my country who is worried about security as I am also chooses pistols.Quality pistols resist sand, mud and dirt in general better than revolvers, where a small pebble locked in the mechanism may render the revolver inoperable.I personally had a problem with a new stainless steel Taurus Tracker .357 magnum. After shooting it a couple of times I reloaded it and shot all 7 rounds as fast as I could and when I tried to empty it, I found that the empties were stuck because they expanded because of the heat. I had to wait until the gun cooled a little so I could empty the gun. Stuff like this can get you killed, even more in a 7 round handgun.I once saw a man walk into a gun store wanting to trade his 357 magnum revolver for a 9mm high capacity pistol.He said he was driving when thugs from another car started shooting at him. He was chased for a few blocks.He said that he pulled his revolver and started shooting at them, and ran out of ammo real fast. He wanted more capacity and fast reloading. I could not agree with him more.Some will consider this “Spray and pray”, thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don’t then it means that you need more time at the range.Those same people will tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their target, one shot one kill.I don’t agree with this. One shot one kill is ok for snipers, but the survivalist should have other alternatives.I don’t see anything wrong with shooting four or five rounds at a chasing car. If those rounds make them think twice about their intentions, they are rounds well spent in my book, even if they don’t kill the attacker.Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol. I wouldn’t doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it buys me time to get out of there.Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in groups. The survivalist should be able to face more than just one attacker. Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 6 round revolver is rather hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a gunfight where you are outnumbered.A forensic doctor that used to live in my neighborhood got killed last year. He was ambushed when he exited a restaurant by 5 or 6 men. Even though they did kill him he managed to kill 4 of them and severely injure another.He shoot regularly and carried a Glock .40. I’m sure he was lucky but I also think that his choice of weapon was also important in the outcome.If anyone is wondering, people in my country that are serious about self defense carry Glocks. Those that don’t have themoney for a Glock carry Bersas, FM High Powers or 1911 surplus .45s.At first I wasn’t sure about the Bersa, but once I tried them I saw that they are very descent guns. I now own two Bersas and am pleased with they performance.The calibre choice calls for endless debate and it is not my intention here. Lets just say that 9mm , 40S&W and 45ACP are the obvious choices.40S&W seem to be the most adequate, both in FMJ and HP, while 9mm lacks some stopping power and hollow points should be used if possible.Though the 9mm lacks power compared to the 40S&W, it is more popular world wide, a factor to consider seriously when choosing a handgun for SHTF. Besides, 9mm can also be used in a number of carbines and SMG, another important fact to be considered.SMGs and carbines chambered for 40S&W and .45 ACP are also available, but they at not nearly as popular as those chambered for 9mm.Whatever you choose keep 500 or better yet 1000 rounds of quality ammo for your handgun at all times. 100 rounds wont last much if the crisis lasts long. Also consider that once the balloon goes up, governments tend to restrict guns and ammo.RiflesI previously stated that the urban survivalist will be using his handgun 90% of the time he needs to defend himself and family from attackers.I didn’t pull this figure out of thin air, it is quite accurate based on what happens here on daily basis, even a little optimistic. Cold harsh reality has shown us that most attacks occur when entering or exiting your home, when you are more vulnerable.Almost no one is stupid enough to try to enter a barred house with armed occupants. Believe me people, the gene pool will clean itself rather fast once the SHTF.So, is a rifle necessary? Of course it is! There is still that 10%, and that 10% can still ruin your day. And this percentage sky rockets if you intend to use that same rifle for putting meat on the table.If you have to settle with just one rifle, go for a semi auto. Ideally you should have a bolt action one and a semi auto rifle. A bolt action and a semiautomatic 308 would make a nice combination.Whatever you choose, try to keep it within military calibers, and military weapons if possible.It may seem that I have something against bolt rifles but I don’t. I think they are fantastic weapons, but I think that semi autos are much better fighting weapons.The idea of “picking them out” 300 meters away with your bolt rifle, as they come in a row blowing whistles and firing warning rounds is laughable at best.Bolt rifles do have advantages over semi autos, accuracy not being the most important one.Bolt rifles such as Mausers last forever and are harder than rocks, THAT’S important. They are simple, easy to repair tools that will serve you (within their limitations of course) longer than any other weapon.For example, the coil spring on my Mauser 1891 safety broke into 3 separate parts, after almost 100 years of faithful service. I dug into my tool box and found a spring left over from a kitchen shelve door. I cut it approximately to the length of the previous spring, replaced it and the rifle was fixed.There are not many weapons that allow this. And it is a very valuable attribute once the SHTF and spare parts are no longer available.Stick to common calibers, 223, 7.62x39mm, or 7,62x51 (308)..223 vs. 308? I’m not going there. If you prefer 223 because it has less recoil, it’s lighter, or you favor the AR rifle go ahead.If you think that 223 is more powerful than 7,62.. sign up to Physics I.Just remember what I said before, a survivalist is not a soldier serving in Iraq, and you don’t have the entire USMF to back you up. You are on your own.You are not going to pin your attackers down with a questionably effective round and wait until someone hits them with artillery. .About ARs… I wouldn’t trust my life to a rifle that has more versions than Rocky sequels… the way I see it, it means that the basic design was the problem and there is no solution.On AK … all has been said. The most popular rifle on the planet. And popular not because of politics, but because it works. It also fires an intermediate power, effective round, available world wide. SKS are also good, but I’d rather have removable magazines.Again, don’t use voodoo on me because I say I wouldn’t trust my life to a AR. If you keep your weapon clean, know it’s limitations and feel comfortable with it, go for it please. A couple of rounds of 223 will kill anyone just as well.If you want a rifle that can do a little bit of everything relatively well, do yourself a favor and get either a M1A or a FAL in 7,62 (308) with a carbine length barrel. Preferably with a red dot scope and some kind of light mount. Leave full length barrels to hunters and bench rest shooters.Do your homework on both guns and you’ll see what I mean.Choose 308 not because of the added range you can get out of it, but because of its power at all ranges, choose it because it turns cover into concealment. Think about all the possible cover material you can find in a city, like cars, trees, low walls and other structures. The 308 will go right through it, or destroy it after a few rounds. It’s a proven cartridge through out the years.Shotguns.Shotguns are good general purpose guns. The main advantage I see is the devastating stopping power and the ability to use special ammo, like slugs and less than lethal ammo. I’m not so sure about the role as an “inside house” gun. The muzzle blast is great and quick follow up are not easy, especially when adrenalin is pumping through your system or, even worse, when someone is shooting back at you.Pistol calibre carbines and SMG.If possible , I’d choose a SMG reduced to semi auto (only if necessary, of course, full auto selector is better if possible ) or other kind of short, small, pistol calibre carbine.The combination of a 9mm handgun and a 9mm carbine or SMG reduced to semi auto or full auto class III has lots of advantages in my book and is a fine combination.Some think that full auto is a waste of ammo. I don’t think so, not if you know how to use your head, and use this feature wisely.If you can get a short barrel and collapsible stock, you’ll also have a weapon that can be hidden under a heavy coat.A red dot scope would enhance accuracy a lot.The advantage of having the same ammo for long and small arm is not to be taken lightly. From the logistical, survivalist point of you, this is one big thumbs up!Think about cowboys and Americans that lived in the west, they also knew the value of using the same ammo for rifle and handgun. They had single action handguns and lever action handguns chambered for the same ammo, the modern survivalist can have the same ammo for his auto pistol and his sub-rifle as well.Some think that a pistol calibre long arm is just one big clumsy pistol or a rifle sized gun that delivers pistol power and accuracy.This is BS. Anyone that ever fired a pistol calibre rifle or SMG knows that they are much more accurate, hitting torso targets at 100 yards is easy, and a little more if you have a red dot scope.Also, SMGs can manage hot ammo specially made for such guns, much more powerful than the one for handguns. Even if you use regular handgun ammo, the added barrel length adds a few extra feet per second making it more powerful. Just check the information on boy armor. Body armor that is rated to stop 9mm, for example, is not rated to stop the same 9mm ammo out of a SMG or carbine, because the added speed will make that same round penetrate the vest.Anyway, +P ammo is more than enough power out of a SMG or carbine, you don’t have to go looking for special SMG ammunition.If you can get full auto, that one nice feature to have. Not worth it if you are on a tight budget, but if you can get it, it may come in handy someday.Full auto SMG are giving police in my country a lot of headaches. A criminal with little or no training will put 3 or 4 cops armed with pistols and shotguns on their toes, just because of the sheer volume of fire these high capacity 9mm deliver.There was this case of a bad guy standing in front of a patrol car full of cops on a red light stop, pulling a 9mm SMG out of his coat and emptying it on full auto. The cops didn’t have a chance, he killed them all. The car looked like Swiss cheese with 40 9mm holes all over the vehicle.SOUND SUPPRESSORSAll I’m going to say on this subject is : Have one if you can. That’s it. I’ll leave the rest of it to your imagination, don’t make me say it.Today it may seem like a “nice to have” feature… after the SHTF, it may be a “O God I’ve got to get a suppressor!!” feature.I’d buy a good suppressor instead of a ultra high dollar scope like the ACOG. Buy a good quality scope, but don’t spend a fortune on it, and use the rest of the money on a suppressor.If you are serious about preparing for SHTF, you’ll thank me one day, just trust me on this one.9mm and 45 suppress quite well. Not as well as .22 , but there is much more power on the big bore ammo.Combined with a full auto SMG, the possibilities are much greater.Sometimes it’s just better to go unnoticed, specially in a SHTF crisis.BODY ARMORDear God! Buy body armor PLEASE!!It’s dirt cheep in USA.Preferably, get the police concealable kind( class II) Then continue to work on it and get class III A military armor and some rifle plates, just as you do when you start buying guns.You’ll end up with 2 or 3 sets of armor which are great to have for family members and spares.Just so you know, I got so desperate about body armor I ordered it from USA through internet (bulletproofme.com), I ended up paying a total of nearly 600 USD for body armor that costs 200 USD in USA. Buy it while you still can.When the SHTF you’ll end up wearing it, believe me. I don’t wear mine all day long but I do wear it when I have to go some place dangerous, deal with people I don’t trust, or when I have to go teach Architecture Representation late at night, and must travel through a much dangerous road at 12 PM.ENDS

 

[zioze34]

Wow

Lots to say there

 

[logjam]

I recently attended the required CW permit class given by the local sheriff's department.

The cops are very serious about home/individuals self protection with their own weapons. They support conceiled carry.

However, they said time and time again, that usually; when a person actually does shoot either at someone or actually hits them, the shooter, even if justified, is screwed, as the lawyers circle overhead and pounce with glee and gusto.

They also said that it's legal to carry a loaded gun in your RV. Where I live, it's legal to carry a loaded gun in your car, next to you on the seat, as long as it's in view. It's also legal to hide it under the seat when you leave the car.

Furthermore they said it's perfectly legal to carry a pistol all over the forest (Unless it's a National Park; the feds want us to be willing victims you see.)

This does not mean that we should not have CW permits, nor does it mean that we should not shoot to protect ourselves. What I am saying is that if we actually do poke a 158 grain chunk of lead into someones wheel house that we are usually screwed too, no matter what the circumstances.

 

[oldschool81]

Home Invasion what? how? why?

I was reading through the BB and notices this:

"I will warn him that if he approaches me I will kill him but if he leaves I will not shoot him in the back"<------- a post by a user here.

My Rebuttal Follows:

That is something that was not completely thought out. Coming from someone who's "been there" on more levels than I care for:

Keep It Simple.. KIS..remember that. The answer to alot of things is Easy/Simple (which sometimes makes it harder but thats mind stuff, which isn't really covered here too well).

LEAVE NOW, NO COPS..LEAVE NOW...COPS ARE ON THIER WAY...

YOU DO NOT SAY "GO NOW OR DIE..I'M GOING TO KILL YOU IF..."

If the invader is armed, you think they are gonna trust what You say? You think they are going to trust You with Thier life? Do I need to answer this for everyone? I dont think so.

Everyone has a "fantasy", or "plan" in thier head of what they would do if this, or that, or whatever the case may be. But when it comes down to IT, your plan is ****.
The answer? Instinct. You have to prepare yourself mentally that NO ONE will threaten your FAMILY.. and YOU will NOT take the CHANCE of putting THIER lives in DANGER because YOU want to SAVE the CRIMINAL/HAVE A CLEAR CONSIOUS...

I would live the rest of my life with guilt, rather than wondering what I SHOULD HAVE DONE...

Your plan, is a fantasy. It is Theoretic, untried, untested.
Want to know whats been tried and tested for a long, long time?

NATURE!!! When a predator comes NEAR a mothers young, guess what happens? That mother will give her LIFE.. she can't help it..

That is the answer to home invasion. Instinct. You Can Not Think it in to your brain.. You have to KNOW.. Instinct is KNOWING without THINKING!

How do you do this? Simple. You are not going to let even a CHANCE of harm coming to your family. EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH GUILT, YOU SELFISH WANNABE FAMILY PROTECTOR!

Yes, say it over and over. Tell that stupid "save the criminal, I dont want to live wih guilt" voice to ****! You WONT let ANYONE come CLOSE to HARMING you or your Family..

Shall I write it again, but differently like my entire post has been? Tell yourself in which ever words it will take for it to work with you.

Oh yeah..NEVER CO-OPERATE WITH CRIMINALS...WHY??
LOOK UP SHASTA GROENE.. in a nut-shell, her entire family was killed BY ONE MAN WITH NO GUN...because the family thought if they co-operated, it will be okay..

NEVER TRUST SOMEONE WHO BREAKS INTO YOUR HOUSE. Seems simple, right? Apparently not. Google it.

Now, do you want to take the chance that the guy who's creeping outside is a normal criminal? Not a child raping family killing criminal, just to save guilt?

Do you need a complete stranger to tell you that the world is an ugly place, even in your nice little neighborhood? Of course not...

I AM NOT SAYING SHOOT FIRST AT EVERYTHING.. only threats, or someone in your house (dont take a chance by NOT shooting them, unless thier hands are up).

Maybe putting up a sign saying "I dial .357, not 911" on your door wil help your guilt.

Another thing...NEVER RELY ON THE POLICE TO TAKE CARE OF ANYTHING!!!
The police are your back-up if you havn't difused the situation yet. Always assume NO ONE is comeing to help YOU.. NO ONE CARES!! yes, you must try to "brainwash" yourself. It helped me anyways.

I understand why its hard. Religious, non-religious, we all have a consious. Its never easy taking a life. Ever. If someone says otherwise, shoot them cos they are evil. (just kidding, kind of..maybe go for the knees..hehe, seriously kidding).

but GET OVER IT.. you think the mommy animal protecting her young gives a crap about how much bigger the predator is, or if she'll survive the attack? She cares about ONE THING... HER FAMILY!!

Now, we are smarter and more evolved, right? SO WHY IS IT HARD FOR US TO DO THIS??? That answer differs for everyone. If you find out yours, there's half the battle.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

But if the person turns his back and leaves (is not drawing a weapon or seeking cover) shooting him is murder.

 

[2ndAmFan]

I live in Texas, quite a ways out in the country, and emergency response time is a minimum of 15 minutes, sometimes closer to 30. More than enough time for a BG to break into the house and do whatever he wants unless someone or something prevents him from doing it. I have a large family and several of us have at least some training/experience with various firearms and home/self defense techniques. As another poster noted, every situation is different. You need to be ready for anything, and while you may not be able to foresee every possible scenario, there are certain basics I believe everyone should follow. Living where we do accidentally shooting a neighbor in a lethal force encounter is extremely unlikely, but if more than one family member is armed in an intruder situation the chances of accidentally injuring, or worse, a family member increase exponentially. We have a watchdog, we keep 3 pump action shotguns in different parts of the house, 2 handguns and 2 rifles, along with high power flashlights, pepper spray, 2 (so far) schedule II vests, etc. All the guns hold at least 6 rounds, the rifles hold 30, and we keep reloads readily accessible. We have a plan we've practiced for a basic intruder scenario to minimize the chance of the BG harming any of us or us harming each other.
The only time we had a prowler outside lately he hauled his freight pronto when I spotlighted him with a powerful beam. I wasn't about to shoot a man who was running away, and who I knew had not harmed any of us. I didn't say a word, just watched him run. As it turned out he was trying to break into a storage shed which contained nothing of much value anyway. I'm glad he wasn't crazy enough to try coming at me or getting in the house because I'd hate to take a life, but if the choice was the BG or me or my family, the BG would be history.

 

[sbd45acp]

bullets don't matter

LJA- I am newer than new to this site- but I have been a student of Firearms training for 20 plus years. I am having a hard time with your statement-

"Along with lots of other things learned, I think I learned the greatest lesson of all - the bullet doesn't matter a bit. Your ability to deal with surprise and your will to fight and win is the name of the game."

Having met Evan Marshall and Peter PI years ago at a Large Trade Show
(The first Edition of Stopping Power had just been published) and discussing this very issue at length. I can't reconcile that the bullet doesn't matter coming from either of them. While I can agree that mindset and determination and preparation, along with a strong will to survive are paramount in any violent confrontation, putting effective hits with an effective bullet ( caliber, projectile, missile- whatever you want call it ) must also be equally, if not more important. It must be effective, significantly effective! If I barricade myself between the bad guy(s) and my Family, Take cover behind a hardened wall, call the cops, blind him with my Surefire, shoot him in the head 7 times with a 25 acp as he lunges toward me with that Wolfgang Puck meat clever that I gave my wife for Christmas and those bullets stop on his skull? Then believe me, those bullets mattered- a lot.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

We run drills in our home. Those drills have demonstrated to us the value of dividing the house into areas of action.

Recently we had a simple knock on the door. Spouse dives into the room designated as the Alamo, closes that door and secures it from within. Nothing will get that door to open without a challenge/counter from me, or a Lawful challenge from LEOs. That room contains a cell, landline phone and a taser in addition to her shottie.

Me? I am to answer the door with pistol out of sight but ready and nicely greet stranger until we resolve why he or she is on our porch. Wrong address? Which addresss? Which street?... all reasonable enough.

The man was given proper information pointing in the general direction of the street address he was seeking and went on his way. Peaceful enough. He never sees my right arm behind my door and stays where he was nice and calm.

That worked out well.

If there was a problem such as him charging the door or drawing a weapon on me or anything of that nature, There will be alot of things happening very fast.

I cannot sit here and write the ending to this scenario. It can have multipule endings or a variety of sub-scenarios where things take a different turn for the worst.

In our home, ho-hum, routine and peace is good. Anything at all out of place is going to be picked up on very fast.

I am shocked at some of the postings here indicating standing in a pile of brass with stacks of BG's at the fence etc... Arent some people a little bit too interested in home defense?

I see the weapons as a tool. Phones as a communication tool and the future as one determined by what happens now. Hopefully nothing bad happens and no one gets hurt.

That is the way we like it.

However...

Reality is simple. BG draws a weapon, he is automatically going to get shot. If it's a LEO drawing, well... I go to the ground LOL. No arguement at all. A balance between aggression and submissiveness.

Finally but not last, I consider times of day. For example. 5:30 AM in the shower cleaning up ready for work and BG gets into the place. Now here I am inconvienced and far away from everything in the home.

That would be pretty bad. But I would improvise... with a wet towel? Bit of drano slapped onto it and chucked into teh face of the advancing BG. That oughta screw him up a little for a short time.

I dont know. Ive been known to get from any point of the home to any point within about 8 steps. BIG steps. So it's kinda nice living in a smallish home.

We have considered getting a smaller dog, barking at strangers on the property.

Finally, if the worst does happen, there is survillence tied to a DVR tied into one of the computers. Recording all for the Court to settle.

 

[thesolidus]

Do you off-hand train?

That is shoot left handed (if your righty)

Broke my arm a few years back but wanted to keep shooting. Had to really learn lefty. Slower than right but oddly more accurate.

Changed my mind about a lot of things. Buying a big 44 SPL is okay for 'Bear Country" but not if you can't handle it with one hand and one on the flashlight. Could get a shot off with my left but realllly hard to control the kick.

How many people train off hand at the range? Or one hand +flashlight?

 

[catspa]

Thesolidus, funny you should mention that. My right middle finger is all bandaged up right now because I ran a router up on it at work. (Stupid, got in a hurry, could have avoided it by following the 4 rules...) This happened on Monday.

Anyway, when I used to compete in bullseye pistol, I did shoot left-handed sometimes, just for the challenge. I often shoot an air pistol in the afternoon when I get home from work, and this week I've been cocking and shooting it left-handed. Almost as accurately as my usual right-handed shooting, which is not stellar, but it is adequate for most purposes.

In the building trades, using either hand is quite a convenience. As you can imagine, sometimes I just can't get the position to beat in a nail or cut off a board with my right hand. Many carpenters I know bandage up their minor injuries and keep working, compensating with the other hand.

Parker

 

[thesolidus]

Cool, exactly what i was thinking. I'm going to bust up my right and that will be THE day I need to use my weapon.
I'll keep working with both hands, one hand drills, jam drills etc.

 

[Peyton666]

From my experience the real problem in SD is almost never talked about

I wrote this aftere seing post on .22LR Stingers vs Velocitors. Then lost that forum it was posted in so endulge me here please. I am 60 years old now and I do think I know some things about killing and more that should be shared with you good people. But I certainly do not imagine I am some expert with all the answers either. By the way I think it might be easier in a sense to kill other human beings at age 19 than at age 60.

First off, good bad or indifferent I have had to shoot and kill people before, more than I want to recall in war, but two in civilian life as well. Let me tell you that when the guy is dying and screaming for his mother or to Jesus or Buddha it loses its romance real quick ( if you ever even had such a childish thought in the first place).

Ok, I have said that because I felt I needed too. But self-defense is everyone’s natural right. It is not “granted” to us by any government or law, it is the natural right of any human being to use what violence is necessary, and no more than that, to save his live and those of his family and loved ones.

You must not hesitate to use the gun when needed, but only when needed. That is the real challenge too.. The criminal does not fear your gun, he fears the person that will use it. I have taught firearms for self-defense for 24 years now and yes I have even taught SWAT teams but please understand that the skills needed for a SWAT team have nothing, and I emphasize nothing to do with your home defense situation.

For example if any SWAT member I know heard an intruder in his house he would call the police. He knows it is strategically stupid to go look for the intruder himself, don’t you do it either. Let the intruder come to you if he is going to, then identify the target instantly and kill him immediately. Also please give this thought, is there anything material in your house that is really worth your killing a human being for? Put aside the mncahismo rehetric and please really think on that a bit. Thee is nothing material I will kill for alone in my house and I have some really nice stuff too.

.22 Stinger Vs Velocitor. Neither bullet will expand in a pistol length barrel. In rifle or carbine they often will though. Ammunition Reliability is the first consideration over any other in your weapon. The only way to know for sure is to shoot a lot of it in your particular weapon.

The .22LR is very light for Home Defense yes, but if that’s what you have, and all that you have, then that is what you have. Remember you can almost never use the sights in any combat and Home Defese ! First it will be too dark anyway to see any sights, but the second reality is your frog brain won’t let you take your eyes off the person trying to kill you. That’s the fact, trust me one this. So try this, open your eyes to the max, contort your face as if terrified, and raise you gun and shoot and do not think about “aiming” with the sights just point the barrel at the person you must kill.

Practice this in a safe place with live ammo. You will discover that with some practice, and often not a lot either, that out to at least 25 feet you can hit anything immediately and instantly without the use of sights. THis is all you will ever need in most any combat situation you might face, actually it is more distance accuracy than you will need most likely.

You will not need any more accuracy that this in the real deal, this is not target shooting and virtually no target shooting skills have anything to do with combat shooting and the actual self-defense use of firearms.

Some people make a lot of money telling you these things are critical to your using a gun effectively in your self-defense of course. But think about it, even at the leading firearms schools in the country, the top 3 lets say, seldom if ever will you have an instructor there who has ever shot anyone, or maybe even pointed gun at anyone in their life. They are just teaching target shooting and firearms safety just as they had been taught. Nothing wrong with that but it should not be sold as self-defense training that is misleading and I do not feel that ignorance is a legitmate excuse there either.

The point is that the kind of accuracy and target shooting skills I see often talked about are just not at all relevant to self-defense. You must simply point and shoot all at once as a rule. The difference between a round that holds a 1 inch group at even at as close as 50 yards and one that opens up to even 3 inches does not mean dam thing in close quarters combat. You could never shoot that accurately under stress anyway. Your not a sniper, your defending your home.

Besides, if you are forced to shoot anyone it is going to be almost certainly at 10 feet away or more likely even closer. I have reviewed 837 homicides (not all murders just homicides some were justifiable self-defense) in all of those it was rare to find a shooting that occurred at more than a 10 ft distance, most were at around 5 or 6 feet or less.

With all this ammo talk you are largely ignoring the real problem here. You know what most people’s real problem is in shooting people? It is simply “shooting people”. The criminal mind often pretty much expects you to hesitate. I have interviwed scores of killers, one cop killer and home invasion criminals and drug killers an two contract killers working for drug pushers (you do not have to worry about that last group of pro-killers either) But we, most all of u anyway, are socially conditioned not to kill people. You would make real mistake not to ponder this reality and its implication in your self-defense plans

I showed this reality to a group of graduates from a leading firearms school. I checked their handguns personally of course. I had the mill about each other randomly and when I shouted, "the guy with the glasses and green shirt", they were all supposed to draw a dry fire on that guy (no ammo of course).

Guess what? About a fourth of them suddenly discovered that they could not even point their gun at another real person. Why would this be a surprise though when all their training made pointing a gun at another person a terrible taboo?

About another fourth drew and pointed but could not pull the trigger even though they knew the gun was empty. The final result, ½ could draw an empty gun and point it at another person and pull the trigger. SO how do you think these graduatte pisteleros from the top school with their fancy holsters and do das on their guns and 'hi-speed training' would do in real fight. They would be killed instantly.

Now some would instantly make the transition and shoot even if in panic, but they would be exceptions.

Even a .22 lr carbine will work IF YOU WILL, And an AK-47 won’t work if you don’t. Think beyond the target shooting games and the this ammo or that, use ammo that works in your gun and hollow point expanding ammo that is all you need concern yourself with really. Even hollow points often do not expand anyway.

Besides, why not just get shotgun? The pattern of a shotgun does not open up at close combat distances (12 to 15 feet which is more than most shooting occur too) But many people imagine a shotgun pattern will open up widely, in home defsne disatnces it will not and you can miss with a shotgun too. So you still have to hit your target with short barreled shotgun just about the same as if you had a carbine. But the shotgun shoul put them out of the fight as a rule pretty quick.

But to show you what is possible despite the movie stuff you see I have seen one felon and murderer (he shot the woman in the head in front of about 12 cops who had their guns allready trained on him) take more than one police shotgun blast and still keep fighting.

He was knocked down by two blasts that hit him it seemd pretty much at the same time. He basically lost balance and fell as no gun will knock a person off his feet. He even dropped his pistol when he fell.

He picked his pistol back up and stood back up and continued to fire at the cops (of which there were about a dozen evryone of them firing at him from behind their squad cars and about 25 feet away)

The officers had three shotguns, sevral 9mm and .45 ACP’s and they were scoring hits too. That’s another thing, in the movies big red splashes magically appear when the person is hit by a bullet, in real life you do not know if you hit the guy or not asa rule(unless it is head shot with a rifle).What you may see in daylight is small pieces of fabric flying off his uniform or clothing and maybe not not that.

My conclusion is only a minority of people can translate their firearms skills to an actual combat sitaution effectively or immediattely.Te main reason, they do not train under realisitc adrenal stress conditons that simulate a real attack. At best they train under only 'performance stress" and it just is not at all the same.