usmarine0352_2005
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Really interesting article on authenticity of Thomas Jefferson 2nd Amendment Quotes
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Banks and elite groups controlling the wealth are huge reasons to have the second IMO. Those are the people who want to make slaves of us all. It probably wasn't the actual slave owners that he feared though. It was the national bank crowd. They knew that large, centralized banks meant centralized power and wealth in the big cities like New York. Sorta like Citibank, Bank Of America, JP Morgan, etc.. You know the type. If you don't you aren't paying attention. The national banks were torn apart by Andrew Jackson but they found ways to get their power back in a hurry. There's a reason Wall St. is in NY you know. That's where the banks are that have enough money to make you or break you before the morning coffee break. John Pierpont Morgan himself showed the world the power a person could wield with a super bank at his disposal. He formed the biggest corporations ever by merging anyone and everyone. He made lots of companies offers they couldn't refuse (because he would destroy them if they did).
BTW ole John Pierpont Morgan was the leading financier of the Progressive Movement. Hmmm... And here they taught me in school that rich people were all Republicans. The plain fact is the only way capitalists can get even more wealth and power is to steer the country into a socialist / communist model. Then they can control everything including whether you live or die just with the stroke of a pen. Stalin used to go down the lists of his "citizens" and check off names at random to select people for execution. He did it to make the people as paranoid as possible. It worked too. People couldn't wait to rat each other out for daring to think the government was bad. He used the power of the government to divide the people and conquer them. Sounds eerily familiar doncha think?
BTW ole John Pierpont Morgan was the leading financier of the Progressive Movement. Hmmm... And here they taught me in school that rich people were all Republicans. The plain fact is the only way capitalists can get even more wealth and power is to steer the country into a socialist / communist model. Then they can control everything including whether you live or die just with the stroke of a pen. Stalin used to go down the lists of his "citizens" and check off names at random to select people for execution. He did it to make the people as paranoid as possible. It worked too. People couldn't wait to rat each other out for daring to think the government was bad. He used the power of the government to divide the people and conquer them. Sounds eerily familiar doncha think?
That's the Jefferson I remember alright mnrivrat. The first president from west of the mountains, Jackson, took on the banks too and did away with the national banks but they were back in business in various forms before his time in office was over.
barnbwt
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"Jefferson had bigger issues to deal with than guns: fears like banks and an elite group controlling a vast amount of wealth. Sound familiar?"
He wasn't a Marxist, either , but you can cherry-pick quotes all day long to make him sound like one
. He was far more concerned with a governmental system that fundamentally couldn't be 'run' by anyone. Like all great historical figures, he gets shoe-horned into whatever is wanted at the time. Lincoln is the worst, having gone through numerous historical transformations (I think he's supposed to be gay at the moment ) as a direct result of his prominence.
I don't know why people get hung up on quotes. Their words weren't reputed to be handed down from Heaven (Bioshock Infinite, anyone?), and the only reason I repeat them is because they are a collection of words more eloquent than we can muster. People knew how to talk back then. I only like to identify the originator because I don't talk that way, and it's obviously been borrowed. Only a fool thinks quotes are an accurate reflection of an individual, let alone an expression of his authority. And an appeal to the authority of a man 200 years gone isn't much to hang an argument on, anyway. I'd prefer if people would simply not cite well-known quotes at all, as their "anonymity" forces the writer to have other substance to their statement, besides "because TJ said so"
TCB
He wasn't a Marxist, either , but you can cherry-pick quotes all day long to make him sound like one
. He was far more concerned with a governmental system that fundamentally couldn't be 'run' by anyone. Like all great historical figures, he gets shoe-horned into whatever is wanted at the time. Lincoln is the worst, having gone through numerous historical transformations (I think he's supposed to be gay at the moment ) as a direct result of his prominence.I don't know why people get hung up on quotes. Their words weren't reputed to be handed down from Heaven (Bioshock Infinite, anyone?
), and the only reason I repeat them is because they are a collection of words more eloquent than we can muster. People knew how to talk back then. I only like to identify the originator because I don't talk that way, and it's obviously been borrowed. Only a fool thinks quotes are an accurate reflection of an individual, let alone an expression of his authority. And an appeal to the authority of a man 200 years gone isn't much to hang an argument on, anyway. I'd prefer if people would simply not cite well-known quotes at all, as their "anonymity" forces the writer to have other substance to their statement, besides "because TJ said so" TCB
JTHunter
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Hhmm - and CNN is an unbiased source of information?
And what is your source. How have you confirmed the authenticity of quotes attributed to Jefferson (or anyone else, for that matter)?JTHunter said:
And have you? What did he really say (citing the source)?RaceM said:
There is a lot of bad information out there, especially in cyberspace. We all should be much more rigorous and more skeptical. Too often people will information as true simply because it is pleasingly supportive of our cherished beliefs or suits our purposes.
Destructo6
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Well, from the article, the writer implied, that because TJ was not the originator of some quote, then it somehow did not count.
I'd have to go look for the original source but I know that these things reflect Jefferson's thinking. Unless I spent a whole lot of money on a bad education (I went to school before the PC era so my education was pretty good IMO) that is how he felt about banks and guns for the most part. And yes my knowledge of the subject goes way beyond what you might find misrepresented on the net. I do have a history degree with a concentration on the period leading up to and including the "modern" era (not the post modern era or the current era either). Banks and the way they were able to take control over the whole country if they were big and centralized was a very hot topic in that time period from John Adams to Andrew Jackson. The First Bank Of The United States was pushed by Hamilton and chartered by Washington as a means of getting credit for the federal government more than anything else. Jefferson was adamantly opposed to it saying it would give to much power to business interests at the expense of the common man and especially the southern farmers. He fought against large, national banks tooth and nail but lost a lot of credibility on the issue by sinking the nation into debt in a big way with the Louisiana Purchase. Maybe that might ring a bell from your grade school history classes because that's where it gets taught. It's just that most people forget what they learned in grade school history classes. If you've ever watched "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader?" you'll know that's true.
Jefferson really saw the power of the big banks as severely restricting the ability of individuals to attain wealth. Money would be loaned to the government and of course taxes would be levied to make payments on those loans. And who would make huge profits off the interest on those giant loans which would be repaid by an organization that collects money with an army from me and you - the bankers of course would get a whole lot of free money from the taxpayers - they could control the money supply and who got money and who didn't - they could make you or break you in a heart beat - and now look at who gets loans from those banks - cronies, family members, and fat cats of course). It was all outside the constitution and Jefferson knew it - at least until he did it himself.
But I can assure you that he took the issue very seriously for a long time and he most certainly argued that guns would be the instrument that kept the federal government in check. Surely we can agree that he said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." He was specifically referring to the tyrants who were already busy buying the national government. Hamilton and Washington did very little to resist that from happening. Adams fought hard to keep it from becoming the way of this country but he failed. Jefferson also took up the fight. But it was Jackson that drove a stake through the heart of the first national bank. The stake was the requirement that loan payments be paid in gold or silver and not in national script. The result was a depression that lasted 4 years and Jackson himself caved to a large degree because of that. But he should have held his ground. Maybe we wouldn't have the kind of out of control federal government that we have today. Those were the last men to truly stand up for our constitution and the prescribed methods of governing written in it's articles. It was a great loss to abandon that road and travel down the sell out path. That's exactly what we did. It has caused us untold grief. It's hardly "socialist" to expect our government to honor the social compact we agreed to live by. They had no right to ignore it. The results should be obvious by now to almost everyone. If you wonder why they think they can ignore the second amendment remember they started out by ignoring other parts of the constitution. Jefferson knew it would eventually lead to war. It already did once. It's entirely possible it will cause another civil war. It was states rights vs. the power of the fed that started the Civil War. Yes slavery was a big issue in that fight. But a lot more was at stake. I detest slavery and what it did to this country because it gave the moral high ground to the wrong side in that war. If you think that's wrong look around at how the states gave us back our rights to carry guns and how the feds try to hard to take those rights away. Those aren't the only rights they are trying to take either. They aren't just trying BTW. They're doing it. And like it or not the gun is the last defense against total tyranny and if we give them up we deserve to become slaves. And we surely will. Jefferson knew that. That is certain. He failed to follow his own conscience because of the vast amount of land he was offered by the French. But some of our other "founding fathers" knew very well they were selling us out right from the start and probably the worst one was Mr. Washington himself. He turned a blind eye more than anything when he should have taken a firm hand. Because of that failure our great experiment in "self rule" looks more and more like a mistake all the time. It's not working the way it was supposed to work. I wish it was, believe me. I certainly don't want socialism. I want to be able to buy property. But the ways to raise yourself up high enough to buy enough land to succeed with it are getting harder and harder to find. And the big reason is the government takes too much of our money for their use telling us we don't know how to spend our money well. It was Hillary that said that. I heard the words come from her mouth if you want proof. Just wait until Obamacare kicks in and you'll see just how much of your money they want.
Jefferson really saw the power of the big banks as severely restricting the ability of individuals to attain wealth. Money would be loaned to the government and of course taxes would be levied to make payments on those loans. And who would make huge profits off the interest on those giant loans which would be repaid by an organization that collects money with an army from me and you - the bankers of course would get a whole lot of free money from the taxpayers - they could control the money supply and who got money and who didn't - they could make you or break you in a heart beat - and now look at who gets loans from those banks - cronies, family members, and fat cats of course). It was all outside the constitution and Jefferson knew it - at least until he did it himself.
But I can assure you that he took the issue very seriously for a long time and he most certainly argued that guns would be the instrument that kept the federal government in check. Surely we can agree that he said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." He was specifically referring to the tyrants who were already busy buying the national government. Hamilton and Washington did very little to resist that from happening. Adams fought hard to keep it from becoming the way of this country but he failed. Jefferson also took up the fight. But it was Jackson that drove a stake through the heart of the first national bank. The stake was the requirement that loan payments be paid in gold or silver and not in national script. The result was a depression that lasted 4 years and Jackson himself caved to a large degree because of that. But he should have held his ground. Maybe we wouldn't have the kind of out of control federal government that we have today. Those were the last men to truly stand up for our constitution and the prescribed methods of governing written in it's articles. It was a great loss to abandon that road and travel down the sell out path. That's exactly what we did. It has caused us untold grief. It's hardly "socialist" to expect our government to honor the social compact we agreed to live by. They had no right to ignore it. The results should be obvious by now to almost everyone. If you wonder why they think they can ignore the second amendment remember they started out by ignoring other parts of the constitution. Jefferson knew it would eventually lead to war. It already did once. It's entirely possible it will cause another civil war. It was states rights vs. the power of the fed that started the Civil War. Yes slavery was a big issue in that fight. But a lot more was at stake. I detest slavery and what it did to this country because it gave the moral high ground to the wrong side in that war. If you think that's wrong look around at how the states gave us back our rights to carry guns and how the feds try to hard to take those rights away. Those aren't the only rights they are trying to take either. They aren't just trying BTW. They're doing it. And like it or not the gun is the last defense against total tyranny and if we give them up we deserve to become slaves. And we surely will. Jefferson knew that. That is certain. He failed to follow his own conscience because of the vast amount of land he was offered by the French. But some of our other "founding fathers" knew very well they were selling us out right from the start and probably the worst one was Mr. Washington himself. He turned a blind eye more than anything when he should have taken a firm hand. Because of that failure our great experiment in "self rule" looks more and more like a mistake all the time. It's not working the way it was supposed to work. I wish it was, believe me. I certainly don't want socialism. I want to be able to buy property. But the ways to raise yourself up high enough to buy enough land to succeed with it are getting harder and harder to find. And the big reason is the government takes too much of our money for their use telling us we don't know how to spend our money well. It was Hillary that said that. I heard the words come from her mouth if you want proof. Just wait until Obamacare kicks in and you'll see just how much of your money they want.
coloradokevin
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Frank Ettin said:
No kidding... I see this play out constantly in the posters/quotes that people post on Facebook. Those things spread like wildfire, even if a two second Google search could prove them as falsely attributed to the historical celebrities that the Internet has attached them to.
fallout mike
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They can't put anything on the internet that isn't true.
Hanzo581
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fallout mike said:
Where did you read that?
fallout mike
Member
On the internet..
"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks" Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr August 19, 1785
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/to...odeng/parsed&tag=public&part=32&division=div1
"The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press. " Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright June 5, 1824
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/to...deng/parsed&tag=public&part=276&division=div1
"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army; to keep ours armed and disciplined, is, therefore, at all times important, but especially so at a moment when rights the most essential to our welfare have been violated," Thomas Jefferson to unknown February 25, 1803
http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff10.txt
from this
http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff.htm
This one was possibly to a State Governor, because it is asking for militia to be armed and trained.
"An application from young gentlemen of the University for the appropriation of a room wherein they might receive instruction in the use of the small sword having led me to the consideration of that subject previously to the receipt of your letter of yesterday, I inclose you my answer to them, which I pray you to receive as equally an answer to yourself. The other part of your request, for the use of a room for instructing them in the art of dancing, stands on more favorable ground. It's object is the embellishment, and not the destruction, of the lives of our young citizens, and the Visitors seem to have provided for it in the statute which enacts that one of the elliptical rooms on the middle floor of the Rotunda shall be used for 'schools of instruction in drawing, music, or any other of the innocent and ornamental accomplishments of life.' Dancing is generally, and justly I think, considered among innocent accomplishments; while we cannot so consider the art of stabbing and pistolling our friends, or dexterity in the practice of an instrument exclusively used for killing our fellow-citizens only and never against the public enemy." Thomas Jefferson to Louis Xaupi September 1, 1825
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtj1&fileName=mtj1page055.db&recNum=502
Pretty sure he is saying he doesn't want dueling taught at UVA
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AethelstanAegen
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Why don't we keep this centered on his quotes about firearms and leave his thoughts on banking for a different forum, shall we?
herrwalther
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Are we going to take CNN's word for it? Really?
Even if he didn't say some of the things he is quoted of saying, I would much rather finding a genuine book or article written by him where he says "guns suck" than take some "expert" word. Get 4 people in a room and ask them what color the sky is, and you get 5 answers. Jefferson hated big government. That is proven. The 2A was written to be a last ditch effort to stop a tyrannical government.
Even if he didn't say some of the things he is quoted of saying, I would much rather finding a genuine book or article written by him where he says "guns suck" than take some "expert" word. Get 4 people in a room and ask them what color the sky is, and you get 5 answers. Jefferson hated big government. That is proven. The 2A was written to be a last ditch effort to stop a tyrannical government.
barnbwt
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Hear, hear! I also think there is a correlation between how "pithy" and T-shirt-able a quote is and the likelihood it's false. As HOOFan illustrates, most of the quotes we hear are tiny snippets whose (informative) context has been boiled away to suit the quoter. It seems "quotes" and "slogans" are frequently used interchangeably. Slogans sound cool, quotes contain depth.
"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks"
Is the line I see frequently, used narrowly to justify our right to carry. I was not aware Jefferson said this after comparing (unfavorably) the violence of ball-games to shooting --that's hilarious! He's asserting these "tools of destruction" are more beneficial to the health and well-being of our bodies and minds than the more peaceable recreation advocated by "polite society"
"Why don't we keep this centered on his quotes about firearms and leave his thoughts on banking for a different forum, shall we?"
Hear, hear --again. I do think the brief departure was useful in illustrating how quotes may be taken out of context to change the perceived advocacies of historical figures. My point was that while TJ was more in line with what we call Libertarianism today, select portions of his famous quotes will seem to correlate with what we now call Socialism or Bolshevism (he was an ardent support of the Sans Culottes in France, after all).
Unlike banking issues, however, his views on firearms tend to be pretty cut and dry (though the massive number of bogus quotes somehow seems to de-legitimize the arguments of TJ himself in the minds of people who disagree with him). Of course that won't stop people from trying to put words in his mouth --figuratively and literally--on all sides of the issue
TCB
"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks"
Is the line I see frequently, used narrowly to justify our right to carry. I was not aware Jefferson said this after comparing (unfavorably) the violence of ball-games to shooting --that's hilarious!
He's asserting these "tools of destruction" are more beneficial to the health and well-being of our bodies and minds than the more peaceable recreation advocated by "polite society""Why don't we keep this centered on his quotes about firearms and leave his thoughts on banking for a different forum, shall we?"
Hear, hear --again
. I do think the brief departure was useful in illustrating how quotes may be taken out of context to change the perceived advocacies of historical figures. My point was that while TJ was more in line with what we call Libertarianism today, select portions of his famous quotes will seem to correlate with what we now call Socialism or Bolshevism (he was an ardent support of the Sans Culottes in France, after all).Unlike banking issues, however, his views on firearms tend to be pretty cut and dry (though the massive number of bogus quotes somehow seems to de-legitimize the arguments of TJ himself in the minds of people who disagree with him). Of course that won't stop people from trying to put words in his mouth --figuratively and literally--on all sides of the issue
TCB
herrwalther said:
go to their source monticello.org, those are people who research primary sources. The article does have some of Jefferson's pro gun quotes too. The article even said Jefferson likely thought guns were necessary...although the quote about him telling his nephew to carry a gun due to fear of slave revolt was a huge speculative stretch and IMO complete BS.
Also saying Jefferson had more important things to worry about is pretty much disceptive wording. Better wording would say he had more pressing things to worry about. Gun control wasn't a huge issue in his time because no one was championing it. National banks and standing army's were actual issues in his time. Most of Jefferson's second amendment quotes are really about fear of a standing army.
Any way you look at it though, Jefferson would most likely NOT have looked favorably on the antis and their ideas that weapons only belong in the ands of the military and law enforcement.
blarby
Member
I'd love to see a quote from Thomas jefferson regarding the internet. I really would.
fallout mike
Member
The internet will become a tool to push forth misinformation and to be a cause for confusion amongst our brothers. - Thomas Jefferson
blarby
Member
rofl rofl rofl
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