Rebuilding an antique military action to a modern rifle

[atek3]

So I know someone wishes to take an old antique (pre-1899) military action (M1893, 1890's mosin action, etc.) and rebarrel, restock, drill and tap, and clean up the trigger. Which would be the best choice as far as accuracy and reliablility goes. Cost isn't an object. I read few if any antique mauser actions are strong enough to handle a modern high pressure cartridge like 30-06 and so should be left in moderate pressure chamberings like 7x57 or 6.5x55. If the rifle was intended to be in a 'tactical' setup, what would be the best chambering among available options.

thanks for your time,
atek3

 

[HarryB]

Why?

To do this project is going to cost quite a bit more than to simply buy a modern rifle set to go out the door.

I find it more fun to outshoot many modern rifle shooters with my $125 Swede. Equal or better accuracy at an eighth the price...

 

[jrhead75]

I agree with Harry...WHY? Plenty of purpose built tactical rigs out there that'll cost less and not destroy any history in the process.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's already been done. A great many of the Finnish M-39's on the market are accurized rifles built on an antique receiver. My M-39 was built in 1968 on a receiver dating to 1894. The triggers are not to everyone's liking, but accuracy is good to excellent. There are excellent scout mounts available, but I'd advise against trying to "Americanize" these or any other war rifles by trying to add a monte carlo stock and some big scope. It's like you-know-what on a bull. The worst example I know of was an effort to turn a beautiful K-31 carbine into an American woods rifle. The fools managed to destroy a perfectly good rifle, spending about $5,000 in the process. But I digress.

Anyway who needs a scope? Learn to use the tangent sights and you'll be better off in the long run. Tactical to me doesn't mean shiny and high-tech, it means the ability to survive hell and come back shooting. The M-39's have that, as do the 91/30's and the K-98's. IMHO the old war rifles are far, far more tactical than anything you might see in a gun magazine or sillywood movie. I could take the steel buttstock of my M-39 and turn most modern "tactical" POS's into small bits of plastic. Actually I'd kind of like to, but that's just me

 

[atek3]

modern rifles are just that. Modern, regulated by GCA 68. Pre-1899 are not legally a firearm.

The triggers are not to everyone's liking

mushy, creepy, gritty, heavy, what?
anyway to clean it up. Or replace it with an after market trigger.

not destroy any history in the process

No, sorry, that arguement doesn't do much for me. If I see a beatup junky rusted, stock beat to hell, antique mauser, I don't have major qualms about turning it into something useful.

Anyway who needs a scope?

Scopes make it just slightly easier to ID your target and hit it on the first round.

I could take the steel buttstock of my M-39 and turn most modern "tactical" POS's into small bits of plastic.

I could take a jackhammer and totally demolish any firearm. If I wanted a crude instrument I'd get a crude instrument.

 

[c_yeager]

Well said Atek, far too many people when asked a simple A or B question just love to answer C. Of course that is the beauty of this forum. You get a lot of input. Personally, i would have thought the "paperless rifle" idea would have been obvious.

Preserving history is one thing. Allowing it to stagnate is completely different. If we were talking about a battlefield pickup in pristine condition id be in complete agreement with above posters. From the sound of it though it seems that you will be giving this rifle a new life. I know that if that was my issued rifle from a hundred plus years ago i would rather it still be shooting than to sit and rust away.

 

[Cosmoline]

Honestly the best pre-98 receivers I know of for a high-pressure cartridge are the '91 Mosin Nagants. I know the Turks rechambered pre-98 Mausers into 8x57JS but I've had some of those and they all gave scary overpressure signs. I would be a bit concerned about how far you can push the "antique" envelope. I believe the receiver is the key, but frankly I've always opted to err on the side of caution and treat rifles modifed after '98 as firearms. Worth getting a letter from the BATF to CYOA IMHO

I still have deep, deep reservations about turning a classic receiver into some kind of "tactical" rifle. That word just conjures up the worst of the slick gun mags, with black plastic rifles sporting massively oversized night vision scopes. You'd have to drill the receiver, bend the bolt and generally destroy what makes the classic receiver a classic.

Your best bet would likely be to re-create the Finnish M-85/53 Finnish sniper rifle. These still use the antique M-91 receivers in some cases, but are a modern sniper rifle in all respects. As far as details go, they are still in active service, so the Finns tend to clam up about them. They may still be needed to drop Ruskies.

Here's a rare snip from an old SWAT article:

"Adopted in the '80s and based on a rebarreled action, the common rifle issued for sniper work is the M-85 in 7.62 x 53R or, as they like to say, "53 Finnish." Numerous types of scopes are mounted on the M-85. These scopes are generally of low power (about 3-6x) and reticles vary. The manufacturers are Zeiss and Schmidt & Bender, and most are equipped with BDCs. These differences make for some interesting work.
During my first year here, I was greatly surprised at the accuracy of these weapons. Ninety-percent hits on man-sized targets out to 700 meters were common. "

http://www.imtt.net/articles/article3.html

 

[Jim K]

Take a broomstick, paint it black, and call it tactical. You will get into less trouble. When you are old enough to buy a real gun, lose the "tactical" nonsense and get real.

Jim

 

[c_yeager]

Take a broomstick, paint it black, and call it tactical. You will get into less trouble. When you are old enough to buy a real gun, lose the "tactical" nonsense and get real.

Quite a lot of assumption there. Im pretty sure Atek is plenty old enough to own a real gun. And your tactical argument is going to be real popular. Are you one of those "what do you need that fer?" types? Personally, i like bolt guns and over-under shotguns as much as anyone else. But, whats wrong with a little black plastic?

 

[SaintDavid]

In my view it is an expensive and interesting project. Actually sounds like a project of mine. Only I am interested in doing a mauser or three. OK I know, it aint exactly cost effective, but niether is my 1954 Chevrolet I try to keep to original, dang 6 volt stuff is expensive. Anyway I personally would not hack up a nice military arm, if and when I find actions with ruined barrels and wood or just already orphaned actions I just feel a need to give them a new life. Probably their third or so life, so why not "modernize" to a varmit style rig. If doing the pre so nopaperwork thing be carefull of preasure issues, or stick to a caliber like the old 6.5x55 thatmany still swear by for accuracy and good luck on an interesting project.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, C_yeager and atek3,

I could be wrong, but when someone asks about getting an antique rifle so it can't be traced and then making a "tactical" sniper rifle out of it, I tend to think that just maybe he wants an antique because he is ineligible to buy a modern rifle, for one reason or another. As to "tactical", yes, the black rifles are fun, and I own some.

But "tactical" is not a good word, and I think we could do without it. When you come right down to the nitty-gritty, "tactical" means killing people. It does not mean deer hunting, or target shooting, or plinking, or even blowing the heck out of an old TV with a Thompson SMG (lots of fun!). We have a lot of young people today running around in black Ninja outfits and hoods and combat boots, playing live versions of video games, or pretending to be some kind of revolutionaries or "militia" a la the latest TV show.

Most of them would never do any harm to anyone; they will grow up and turn out OK. But in the meantime, I don't think playing Lee Malvo or the Ohio turnpike sniper does our image any good at all.

If I am wrong, I apologize. Maybe atek3 is 60 years old, has a TS clearance, and just likes older rifles. Somehow, I don't think so.

Jim

 

[Cosmoline]

Well I agree that the term "tactical" is overused and should be avoided. But I don't think it's because "tactical" means killing people. To me it simply conjures up silly rifles with too many easily-broken and overpriced accessories on them.

 

[c_yeager]

To be honest i agree with Cosmoline about the term "tactical". But, if you check out Ateks webpage it sure looks like he is over 18 anyways. And even if he isnt he already owns a FAL so its way too late to save him from the evils of gun ownership. We all know that you can kill WAY more people with one of them bannana-clip semi-auto shoot-from-the-hip assault-rifles anyday than you can with a bolt gun anyhow. Besides, Jim by your definition anyone who carries a pistol is doing so with the express purpose of "killing people" and i dont think thats entirely fair.

 

[25/20]

well, i dunno if anyone would like this, but i cant reverse it, so there.

I have a sporterized krag. It was my great grandfathers woods rifle before he bought a remington 3006, and its a VERY nice old rifle. monte carlo stock, williams peep sight, and i beleive it was reblued, because it is in great shape. That thing is sweet, the only thing is that round around here is EXPENSIVE. I wish someone at the gun shows would reload for 30-40 or that any of the major sporting goods stores would even still stock it, because its about 25-28 dollars for 20 rounds around here.

 

[atek3]

I could be wrong, but when someone asks about getting an antique rifle so it can't be traced and then making a "tactical" sniper rifle out of it, I tend to think that just maybe he wants an antique because he is ineligible to buy a modern rifle, for one reason or another. As to "tactical", yes, the black rifles are fun, and I own some.
Wow. Its called a 'project'. Can you make a non-gun into a modern 'tactical' rifle? And yes I'm eligible, or I wouldn't have a website full of gun stuff. That would be retarded. Oh and that isn't my FAL.

But "tactical" is not a good word, and I think we could do without it. When you come right down to the nitty-gritty, "tactical" means killing people. It does not mean deer hunting, or target shooting, or plinking, or even blowing the heck out of an old TV with a Thompson SMG (lots of fun!). We have a lot of young people today running around in black Ninja outfits and hoods and combat boots, playing live versions of video games, or pretending to be some kind of revolutionaries or "militia" a la the latest TV show.

I think tactical is an overused word, but what was the alternative. When I say tactical I mean something that has a synthetic stock (because it warps less), high quality optics, good trigger, good bedding, in a caliber that is reasonable for social work. You can't call it a "sniper" rifle. It's not a 'hunting rifle'. Actually, in retrospect, Jeff Coopers, "General Rifle" would be most appropriate.
Hahah
"young people"
(i'm 22)
"black ninja outfits"
(well I've got royal robbins and kydex)
"hoods and combat boots"
(doh all I've got are my new balance shoes and no hoodies"
"playing live versions of video games"
(nah, I only play video games once and a while)
"Pretending to be some kind of revolutionaries or "militia" a la the latest TV show."
(haha, that would be a cool television show, kinda like mad max meets red dawn.)

Guess you hit the nail pretty much on the head.

Hah. Made me laugh a lil.

atek3

 

[Gewehr98]

How about...

"Precision Rifle"?

And it doesn't have to be black, either.

I've built more than a couple using old 98 Mauser actions, too.

 

[Feanaro]

When you come right down to the nitty-gritty, "tactical" means killing people.

When you come right down to the nitty-gritty, that's what firearms were invented for. To make things dead. Still one of the more popular uses.

 

[JShirley]

(22 does qualify for "young people". I'm 10 years older, and would like to think I still kinda fall into this category.)

 

[Bill Hook]

Assuming that you're going to do this to a tired old gun that has been ravaged by Bubba before you ever got to it?

I'd rather have a Mauser than a clunk M-N action, if so. The M-N could handle a .30-06 though.

 

[pbhome71]

Your best bet for an antique receiver is a Mauser type action. It is easier to get a good gunsmith to work on it.

I would think 308Win is a good choice for Col. Cooper general rifle concept.

Please don't make it too heavy, though.

-Pat

 

[Jim K]

OK, atek3, I apologize for thinking of the Columbine kiddies.

As for "tactical" I still believe the word is inappropriate as well as overused. We have "tactical" rifles, "tactical" ammo, "tactical" stocks, "tactical" pants, "tactical" boots, "tactical" hoods, "tactical" flashlights, "tactical" scopes, and I am eagerly awaiting "tactical" jock straps.

As for guns (in concept) being originally intended for killing, I agree. But many guns were never intended or used for killing anything, and the vast majority of civilian-owned guns in the U.S. today are not used for any killing, even hunting. But I don't think folks who blather about "sniping" and "tactical" all the time do any good for gun owners. I have not forgotten that "assault rifle" was OUR term, used by AK-47 importers to peddle cheap guns. We gave the expression to the antis and they sure have beaten us over the head with it.

Jim

 

[atek3]

jshirley, I was agreeing, I still hope 22 counts as young

Jim, what about "xtreme". Now everything "tactical" is also 'xtreme". Springfield x-treme duty (XD), of which i own two. Surefire is coming out with the insight M6 xtreme

Oh, precision rifle is another good one. However that can get easily confused with totally impractical 'benchresting' rifles.

I think 308 is out of the question, as the antique mauser actions aren't really designed for such a relatively high pressure cartrige. I think the 3 best calibers for such a rifle would be 6.5x57 (necked down 7x57), 6.5x55 SE( nice as it requires no tweeking and is a factory cartridge), or 6.5x54R (necked down 7.62x54R). I think I have a soft spot for the insanely high BC's of 6.5mm VLD's.


Thanks for all the responses,
atek3

 

[atek3]

"tactical" jock straps.

hmmm, sounds good. I think blackhawk is missing out on an important market niche

atek3

 

[Bill Hook]

Why 6.5 x 54R? A M-N already fires 7.62 x 54R and there is no reason to convert a Mauser to a rimmed cartridge, unless you want potential feeding problems.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I'd rather have a Mauser than a clunk M-N action, if so. The M-N could handle a .30-06 though.

NO!

Don't attempt to rechamber a M-N to 30.06! Bannermans tried it many, many years ago (before the days of litigiousness) and blew up more than a few.

Too much pressure for a M-N. If you have to build something in 30.06 build a Mauser 98. Unless you don't have enough iron in your bloodstream already. Exploding actions will add more, guaranteed.

Just a tip for your own safety and those who come after you.

Regards,
Rabbit.