Recent experience flying with firearms

[BigSteve57]

Your gun case is never supposed to be out of your sight while they check it. And you NEVER give out your combination; you open the case, they do their thing, you close and lock the case; it gets put in the baggage section.

Please understand I wasn't happy about this or the other instances where this or similar happened.

I just conferred with my wife and we both recall my asking if I could open the case or at least be present while the case was inspected like I had previously experienced. The answer was no you can't go there it's a secure area...this happens all the time to those traveling for the military...there's no problem...or words to that effect. Again, my one experience where I personally opened the case and watched the inspection was traveling out of Dulles to South Africa.

I wonder if the NRA or some other gun rights organization would fund a BS trip for me to fly from BWI to Dulles and back. The purpose would be just to test whether or not the same kind of thing would occur and if it did, if I could successfully insist on personally opening the gun case and being present for the inspection. The answer just might be OK no key/combo no checked firearm. I'd love to blog about that adventure!

 

[9mmepiphany]

The purpose would be just to test whether or not the same kind of thing would occur and if it did, if I could successfully insist on personally opening the gun case and being present for the inspection.

It's been done. As I posted earlier, it just depends on how much time you have to spend on it.

The traveler had the regulations in hand stating that he was entitled to be present when the case was opened. He was able to be present, but it takes some time to get the clearances and your being able to make your flight isn't their concern. I would think it would be fairly easy if you arrived 4 hours ahead of your boarding time...so double your usual allowance

 

[Labguy47]

I would have just broken it down into components and mailed it to myself UPS

 

[George P]

You still have to declare the firearm part to UPS and shipping multiple packages could cost more than paying an baggage fee

 

[Labguy47]

You still have to declare the firearm part to UPS and shipping multiple packages could cost more than paying an baggage fee

Yes but way less hassle. I usually put so many locks on my case that all they can do is X-ray it, when flying.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I would have just broken it down into components and mailed it to myself UPS

When dealing with something that has legal implications it's very important to be accurate and precise. So --

1. Shipping something by UPS is not mailing. Mailing is shipping something by the United States Postal Service (USPS).
   
   
2. Even if you break a gun down into components the frame is still a firearm. The shipping of the frame is subject to any laws and carrier rules applicable to the shipping of firearms. So you don't gain anything by disassembling the gun. If it can't be shipped assembled it can't be shipped broken down (at least if the frame is included).
   
   
3. It's legal for an individual (without an FFL) to mail a fully assembled rifle or shotgun (as defined in the USPS regulations). It's not legal for an individual to mail a handgun or other firearm which may be conceal upon the person, whether assembled or disassembled.
   
   
4. While ATF has provide guidance to the effect that it is legal to ship a firearm to oneself, neither UPS nor FedEx will accept under their rules a firearm for shipment by a non-licensee to anyone other than an FFL.
   
   
5. It is a violation of federal law (18 USC 922(e)) for anyone to ship a gun interstate to a non-licensee without written notice to the carrier.
   
   Let's look at this in a bit more detail:
   
   
   1. ATF (see FAQ 9) says that someone can ship a gun to himself:

      Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
      
      

      Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.​

      
      
   2. But UPS and Fedex under their rules won't do it.
      
      
      • According to their published terms neither FedEx nor UPS will accept a firearm for shipment from an individual to another individual, even if that individual is himself (i. e., the shipper). They will accept a firearm from an individual for shipment to an FFL or, when legal (e. g. a repaired gun shipped by a manufacturer to the individual who sent it in for repair), from an FFL for shipment to an individual.
        
        
        • UPS Terms of Service, pg 7 (emphasis added):

          3.6 Firearms and Ammunition
          
          UPS accepts Packages containing firearms or ammunition only pursuant to the following limitations.
          
          3.6.1 Firearms
          
          UPS accepts Packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies; and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state, or local law from (i) an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The Shipper shall comply with and shall ensure that each Shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state, and local laws applicable to the Shipper, recipient, and Package, including, without limitation, age restrictions....

          
          
        • FedEx Service Guide, pg 140 (emphasis added):

          Firearms
          
          A. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
          
          

          1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
          
          2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same)​

          .....

        
        So under both UPS and FedEx rules, when an individual is either the shipper or recipient, there must be an FFL on the other end.
      
      
   3. And USPS won't do it for a receive or handgun -- only for a rifle or shotgun. See USPS Publication 52, Part 4, Section 43 :
      
      
      • First, let's look at what is mailable.
        
        
        • Under 432.3:

          Except under 431.2, unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing. The following conditions also apply:...

          
          431.2 refers to short barrel rifles and shotguns which are not mailable.
          
          
        • But what is a rifle and what is a shotgun for the purpose of 432.2? "Rifle" and "shotgun" are defined at 431.4:

          A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be concealed on a person.

          
          
        • So a frame or receiver can not be a rifle or a shotgun. A frame or receiver doesn't have a barrel, nor is its overall length 26 inches or longer.
          
          
        • Therefore a frame or receiver can not be a rifle or shotgun mailable under 432.2.
        
        
      • Then what is not mailable.
        
        
        • Under 432.2 (emphasis added):

          Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section,...

          
          The persons referred to who under the regulation may mail a handgun or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person do not include an ordinary, private citizen.
          
          
        • A a frame or receiver is not a handgun as defined at 431.2, nor is it a rifle or shotgun defined at 431.4, but is it a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person"?
          
          
          • "Firearm" is defined at 431.1 (emphasis added):

            ...a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
            
            b. Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel....

            
            
          • So a a frame or receiver, as the part of the firearm providing the housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, is, all by itself, a firearm.
            
            
          • Also, physically a a frame or receiver is small enough to be concealed upon the person.
            
            
          • With regard to concealability the regulations provide, at 431.2.b (emphasis added):

            b. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.

            
            A a frame or receiver will be smaller than at least most short barrel rifles or shotguns and so would be at least as concealable.
            
            
          • Furthermore, a a frame or receiver is not, by itself, a rifle. First, it doesn't fit the regulation's definition of a rifle (432.4), but also, it may be used to construct, whether legally or not, a handgun or a short barrel rifle. Therefore, a stripped lower receiver is not necessarily a rifle part.
          
          
        • Therefore, a frame or receiver is, for the purpose of the USPS regulations and the restrictions on mailing firearms which are handguns or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
        
        
      • Therefore a frame or receiver is not mailable under USPS regulations by a non-licensee.

 

[BigSteve57]

When dealing with something that has legal implications it's very important to be accurate and precise. So --

Edit for brevity...

I looked at shipping the firearm but found threads elsewhere on this website that showed that wasn't really possible due to what you mentioned in your post. That post has to be the most complete and succinct summary of shipping firearms I have ever seen. Awesome post & THR=awesome set of web forums.

 

[rpenmanparker]

i'd prefer all my stuff just come out on the chute. i don't really want tsa hand delivering anything

That would be awful.

 

[rpenmanparker]

M

Maybe in some cases or for some airlines. I fly with Southwest normally. They allow two checked bags up to 50lbs each for no extra charge. A box of 1000 9mm bullets or 500 .45 bullets weighs about 17-22lbs depending on the grains. I never fly with more baggage or weight than is included without extra charge.

Bullets are limited to 11 pounds, at least on United.

 

[giggitygiggity]

M

Bullets are limited to 11 pounds, at least on United.

Is that bullets or ammunition or both? I suspects you are referring to loaded ammo, but I am not familiar with United’s restrictions. Bullets are just pieces of metal and, at least on Southwest, have not weight restrictions. On the other hand, Southwest limits ammunition to 11 pounds.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Is that bullets or ammunition or both? I suspects you are referring to loaded ammo, but I am not familiar with United’s restrictions. Bullets are just pieces of metal and, at least on Southwest, have not weight restrictions. On the other hand, Southwest limits ammunition to 11 pounds.

I meant ammo. No idea about just bullets.

 

[tuckerdog1]

I'm happy to get mine anonymously. I'd rather staff not even know what they're carrying tbh. I'm more concerned with dishonest staff than the general public.

That's for sure. Worked at an airport for 31 years. Once while attending a security meeting, one of the attendees took two large bags and dumped them on the conference table. It was hundreds of the small padlocks used by most to lock their luggage. It was clear, they had all been cut off. They were found on the terminal roof by a repair crew doing some roof repairs. Was told there were hundreds they did not retrieve because they were too close to the edge of the roof & safety was a concern. Baggage guys were cutting the locks off and tossing them up there after digging through passengers' bags.

Tuckerdog1

 

[Labguy47]

Shipping something by UPS is not mailing. Mailing is shipping something by the United States Postal Service

1. Let's look at this in a bit more detail:
   1. ATF (see FAQ 9) says that someone can ship a gun to himself.
   2. A frame or receiver is not a handgun as defined at 431.2
   3. Therefore a frame or receiver is not mailable under USPS regulations by a non-licensee.

And therefore it is perfectly legal when broken down into components to ship set said parts. As you so eloquently tried to disguise.
I specifide UPS not USPS.
I specified it must be broken down into parts, NOT fully assembled.
And the ATF says I can! Why, because my liscensure says I can!

 

[Frank Ettin]

And therefore it is perfectly legal when broken down into components to ship set said parts. As you so eloquently tried to disguise.
I specifide UPS not USPS.
I specified it must be broken down into parts, NOT fully assembled.
And the ATF says I can! Why, because my liscensure says I can!

What a ridiculous and incorrect comment.

Even when disassembled the frame or receiver of a firearm is a firearm. So shipping a bare frame or receiver is subject to the same rules as shipping a fully assembled firearm, except that the frame or receiver of a rifle or shotgun is not a rifle or shotgun for the purposes of postal regulations; and it therefore can't be mailed by a non-licensee.

Are you trying to claim that you have an FFL? If so, your situation is irrelevant to the OP.

 

[Skoghund]

First week of November i traveled back to the UK with my rifle for a long weekends hunting with a couple of mate. For the first time out of all the times I've flown around Europe with a rifle, the young lady on the check in desk at Landvetter, Göteborg was on the ball. Bagage and rifle, ammo checked in in about 5 minuets. Arrived at london Gatwick and my Rifle and ammo delivered to Border control for checking. Again about 10 minuets. Of all the places that I've hunted in Europe the only place that is a pain is when flying home from Porto airport, Portugal. The policeman who checks the weapon and ammo is a real miserable sod and likes to make up the rules as he go's along.
I always use Pelicases for rifle and ammo. Pelicases are cheap insurance against your weapons getting damaged.

 

[trickshot]

That's for sure. Worked at an airport for 31 years. Once while attending a security meeting, one of the attendees took two large bags and dumped them on the conference table. It was hundreds of the small padlocks used by most to lock their luggage. It was clear, they had all been cut off. They were found on the terminal roof by a repair crew doing some roof repairs. Was told there were hundreds they did not retrieve because they were too close to the edge of the roof & safety was a concern. Baggage guys were cutting the locks off and tossing them up there after digging through passengers' bags.

Tuckerdog1

Does anyone know if there is a padlock made that is small enough to work on a Pelican case, and yet is strong enough to not be easily cut off by the baggage guys?

I was thinking that if the case had multiple padlocks on it, and a baggage handler had a very difficult time cutting the first lock; he would move on to a different case.

 

[hdwhit]

Big Steve 57 wrote:
Check-in was uneventful at BWI except for the fact that our reservations had somehow stipulated that we BOTH were flying with firearms when it was just me.

That is a consequence of how YOU (or your travel agent) made the reservation. You are way out of line to try and blame American Airline for your (or your travel agent's) mistake. It was your mistake (or your travel agent's), but whether you or your agent's, you need to own the error, not blame it - or the time it took the resolve it - on the airline.

As to how baggage claim is handled, that is a matter for the local airport (subject to certain Federal Regulations), but the baggage claim itself is not governed by the Federal Government. You really NEED to familiarize yourself with the practices followed by the local jurisdictions you will be traveling FROM and those you will be traveling TO.

Apparently this is some sort of crisis...

Yes, it was.

You told the airline (and through them the TSA) that there would be two guns, yet you only appear at check-in with one. Where is the second gun?

Of course, you expected the airline to accept your unsubstantiated word it was just your (or your agent's) ignorance in using the reservation system.

Would you really expect the airline to accept the word of someone named Tarrik Hussein?

So why you?

Because of your American citizenship? Jose Padilla was an American Citizen.

Your white skin? We have have had many Caucasian Americans join radical Islamic groups over the years. So, all of that is meaningless.

When were you radicalized, Big Steve? Was it via Awake! or was your conversion to extremism via chat rooms on radical websites?

Welcome to the 21st Century! Caucasian converts to radical Islam are, and have been, conducting lone-wolf attacks in the heartland of the United States. You now fit the profile.

Bottom line is that your problems were of your own making. Despite your intricate post, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Take ownership of it and stop blaming the airline and everyone else.

 

[BigSteve57]

That is a consequence of how YOU (or your travel agent) made the reservation. You are way out of line to try and blame American Airline for your (or your travel agent's) mistake. It was your mistake (or your travel agent's), but whether you or your agent's, you need to own the error, not blame it - or the time it took the resolve it - on the airline.

As to how baggage claim is handled, that is a matter for the local airport (subject to certain Federal Regulations), but the baggage claim itself is not governed by the Federal Government. You really NEED to familiarize yourself with the practices followed by the local jurisdictions you will be traveling FROM and those you will be traveling TO.



Yes, it was.

You told the airline (and through them the TSA) that there would be two guns, yet you only appear at check-in with one. Where is the second gun?

Of course, you expected the airline to accept your unsubstantiated word it was just your (or your agent's) ignorance in using the reservation system.

Would you really expect the airline to accept the word of someone named Tarrik Hussein?

So why you?

Because of your American citizenship? Jose Padilla was an American Citizen.

Your white skin? We have have had many Caucasian Americans join radical Islamic groups over the years. So, all of that is meaningless.

When were you radicalized, Big Steve? Was it via Awake! or was your conversion to extremism via chat rooms on radical websites?

Welcome to the 21st Century! Caucasian converts to radical Islam are, and have been, conducting lone-wolf attacks in the heartland of the United States. You now fit the profile.

Bottom line is that your problems were of your own making. Despite your intricate post, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Take ownership of it and stop blaming the airline and everyone else.

I'm not sure exactly what happened with regard to who said what. I did tell the travel agent we would be traveling with firearms for a hunting trip. I really had no idea the she would tell the airline anything at the time. So I do own the entire scenario as far as that goes. The one airline airline rep couldn't work her computer and that's on her. That's all I'm blaming - the airline's rep's incompetence with their own system. The other rep cleared it in a couple of keystrokes. All I was doing was trying to tell everyone what I experienced. So for future reference I'll not mention anything prior to going to check in. That was the point of the post. That's my recommendation going forward.

BWI and BZN handled my check-ins very differently and you tell me I need to familiarize myself with the practices of the local jurisdictions. How do I do that? I don't see anything on BWI's of BZN's website with regard to this matter.

Regarding "When were you radicalized, Big Steve? Was it via Awake! or was your conversion to extremism via chat rooms on radical websites? "
I really don't understand what this means. What is Awake?

Welcome to the 21st Century! Caucasian converts to radical Islam are, and have been, conducting lone-wolf attacks in the heartland of the United States. You now fit the profile.
How so?

 

[mdauben]

Maybe in some cases or for some airlines. I fly with Southwest normally. They allow two checked bags up to 50lbs each for no extra charge. A box of 1000 9mm bullets or 500 .45 bullets weighs about 17-22lbs depending on the grains. I never fly with more baggage or weight than is included without extra charge.

Southwest does not serve my local air port, and all the other carries seem to be charging $25 for each checked bag under 50# and $100 for any bag over 50#. I've busted the 50# limit more than once when I am going to be gone for more than a week, but luckily I only fly for work and they reimburse me for baggage fees.

That is a consequence of how YOU (or your travel agent) made the reservation. You are way out of line to try and blame American Airline for your (or your travel agent's) mistake. It was your mistake (or your travel agent's), but whether you or your agent's, you need to own the error, not blame it - or the time it took the resolve it - on the airline.

IMO the issue was the first clerk not knowing how the correct the mistake. Since when the OP went to a second clerk it was cleared up in a few minutes, the problem was the first clerk wasn't properly trained, which is the airlines fault.

You told the airline (and through them the TSA) that there would be two guns, yet you only appear at check-in with one. Where is the second gun?

Of course, you expected the airline to accept your unsubstantiated word it was just your (or your agent's) ignorance in using the reservation system.

Would you really expect the airline to accept the word of someone named Tarrik Hussein?

Yes. They "accept the word" of every other passenger who does not claim to have a firearm, that they do not. Why should they they not accept the word of someone what is checking one gun that they do not in fact have a second gun? In any case, from what the OP said, they did in the end accept his word that he was not traveling with two firearms.

 

[rpenmanparker]

The mistake in the above complaint story was to state in advance that EITHER passenger would be checking firearms or that any number of firearms would be carried. It is totally unnecessary. Just state at the baggage check counter that your luggage contains firearms and the proper airline employee will be called to take care of you. It could not be easier. Stipulating in advance that you will have firearms is just asking for trouble.

 

[scaper]

Does anybody know if a non firearm item, such as a pocket knife, is permitted in the same hard case as the firearm? Thanks.

 

[herrwalther]

Does anybody know if a non firearm item, such as a pocket knife, is permitted in the same hard case as the firearm? Thanks.

Yes it is allowed. Knives have no special rules that I have encountered where they have to be locked up a certain way in checked baggage, unlike firearms. Direct from TSA

Knives

• Carry On Bags: No
• Checked Bags: Yes

Except for plastic or round bladed butter knives.

Any sharp objects in checked bags should be sheathed or securely wrapped to prevent injury to baggage handlers and inspectors.

Pocket Knife

• Carry On Bags: No
• Checked Bags: Yes

In general, you are prohibited from traveling with sharp objects in your carry-on baggage; please pack these items in your checked baggage.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

AA put a large red tag on the handle of my Pelican case.

And that's why I only fly Southwest

 

[FlSwampRat]

This is maybe a half bubble off of the OP's intention but it's apropos to flying with a firearm and it was his post that sparked the thought in my head. I had noticed awhile back that you can't go from New England to the rest of the country by ground transportation without passing through the Great Wall of NY. No, I'm not geographically challenged, it just never struck me before until I was hearing the horror stories of people driving through NY and by misadventure of a breakdown or traffic accident having the police discover a firearm in their trunk. This was soon followed by equally horrible stories of landing in JFK or LaGuardia with a firearm en route to some final destination.
Anyway, I was wondering what would happen if someone was flying from point A to Point B and their plane, for one reason or another had to make an unplanned landing (medical emergency, unruly passenger, mechanical failure, whatever) in NYC and it was discovered that there was a (GASP!) privately owned weapon on board. Any thoughts or experiences?

 

[bluejeans]

I have been flying a lot lately for work with a handgun... only once in a few years have I been asked to open the case to verify it was unloaded. They usually just ask and take my work on it. Once I have to help the trainee through the process.. me: “ I think now you’re supposed to put that piece of paper inside my bag for tsa... “. And once last month had the lady checking me in query “ do you mind if I ask what you’re carrying? ... s&w 629 44 mag? Ooh that’s a nice gun!”