Airline leaves my Rifle sitting infront of baggage carousel

[Willie Sutton]

"My expectation is that the firearm (cased rifle), having been declared and duly checked as a "special item" on the front end of the trip, be handled as the horribly dangerous and hazardous item it is feared to be at the destination end of the trip. Is that too much to ask?"


In a word, YES.

Your expectations are completely unrealistic and are formed in a paradigm that is not based on the way things really work.


Having been at one time an airline pilot, who also checked a firearm as baggage many many many times and still does, here's the deal:

Your bag, once you hand it to the baggage people, is just another anonomous bag, no different than any other. It is not subjected to any special treatment, and passes thru the baggage system *just like any other bag*. It is ILLEGAL for it to be marked externally or tagged as a firearm, and NOBODY who does not open the outer case to find the TSA "permission slip" will ever know that there's a firearm inside *unless you are so stupid that you carry it in a case that screams out 'gun' " So don't do that.

If your bag is carrying a handgun, it'll be found on the baggage claim belt like any other bag. If it's oversized... like skis, golf clubs, or a...harp, for example... it will be in the baggage handling office or put off to the side *simply because it does not fit on the automated baggage belt* and you need to go find it. Guess what? If it's a large rifle case it'll be off to the side. Get over it... and go claim it. Know what? The average set of decent golf clubs or skis is worth more than your average rifle. None of it gets any special treatment. It's just another bag....


Think about this from another angle:

You declare a firearm to TSA (and retain the key to the case) simply so that the TSA screeners STOP SEARCHING when they come to it in a screening after you check it. They see the TSA form, and they do not break into the bag or case to continue a search which they are entitled to do for any other bag containg any other item. Basicaly it's a hands off form. If they want to see what's in the case, they need to call you or contact you and you will then need to go rejoin your bag and open it using the key that you retained when you checked the bag. The declaration is there to protect your property from being looked at outside of your presence.


Suggestion for rifles: break them down if you can and stick them into a suitcase. If you cannot, you are going to need to deal with accepting that the case will be treated just like a set of skis. You are going to need to use the baggage special-services claim area just like any other sportsman on a trip. Obviously the more anonomous the case looks, the less attention it will attract. But from my personal behind the scenes experience... bag handlers are *really busy* workers. They are just moving boxes from one belt to another and could care less what's inside. Don't put your cool-lection of gun stickers on the outside of the case and the chances are that nobody will really even notice your bag at all.

It's...just...another...bag...among...thousands. Really.



"With airports, airlines and TSA all uber-nervous about security and firearms, I guess I had an expectation that a cased rifle would be held for pick up at a baggage claim window. I guess I had the expectation that it would not go down the slide and be generally available for anyone to grab. I guess I had the expectation that it would not be moved by some unknown person, baggage handler or otherwise, to a an unsupervised and unsecured area next to some golf bags"


The "input side security" is there for one reason: it ensures that there is no need for any further special treatment "downstream" in the baggage flow cycle. Once it's accepted... it's just a bag. Here's the thing to remember: Unless you case it in a bag that screams GUN, nobody in the baggage area knows that there is a gun inside. So let your bag be anonomous and low key. The airlines have neither the time or inclination to handle your rifle case any differently than someones dirty clothing in a duffle bag. Once it's entered into the maw of the beast it'll come out of the other end just like anything else the system devours.

Here's another hint: If you REALLY REALLY REALLY want your property to come to you with 100% safety, on an airliner, use another airline. If you want your bag to be secured from start to stop, with bulletproof security, signature and tracking, and ID required to collect it, there is a perfect airline that will be happy to do all of that for you. It's called FEDEX. Ship it to yourself the day before and have it held at the FEDEX`cargo terminal at the airport where you are headed (all airports worth their salt have a FEDEX cargo office over in "cargo city" at the other end of the airport). Walk up to the FEDEX "bag claim office" and collect your bag after showing your identification. It's how I get the $25K of scuba diving equipment that I carry on expeditions to my destination with 100% efficiency. Know what? It costs *thru the nose* to get this level of security, more at times than my own ticket. Your property is either worth it, or it isn't. You are free to choose the level of service and security that you are willing to pay for. Pretty simple economics. And yes FEDEX will ship your firearm.... if you deal directly with FEDEX and not with a local "pack and ship" spot.

Thinking that the generic people-carrying airline is going to do all of that for a $25 bag charge when you check your bag in Detroit headed for Dallas is simply not the real world. Heck, they charge for a COKE on most airlines... why would they put special security on your bag... for free?


Willie


.

 

[we are not amused]

Yes, most baggage handlers may be subcontracted but the most definitely are background checked. I don't know where you got the information that they're not. These folks are in the most sensitive of the sterile areas and have direct access to the airplanes. Don't you think the FAA, TSA, etc. would want these people screened?

I know that the ground crew and baggage handlers do not go through the TSA security checks that passengers and Flight crew including pilots go through.

As far as whether they are background checked or not, all I can go by is what I have seen on television news reports, one of which claimed they were not.
Now this was a Main Stream News Media report, I will not claim it to be accurate, but given the Security Theater that is our current screening regimen, I wouldn't put anything past the idiots who run airline security. I also know that TSA agents and baggage handlers are responsible for a lot of theft, which leaves me to believe they aren't all that well screened. In fact I think they had some people convicted of sex crimes doing pat downs. That was a major news story a while back.

Every few months, you get a story about some TSA agent being arrested for stealing stuff from luggage.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So I'm standing their and notice that my rifle case is sitting near the customer service office. They have a roped off area with baggage in it... and mine is sitting outside that roped in area. So I politely asked why did they put my rifle outside the roped area... right in front of another flights carousel? Well basically I got the.. "Theres a gun in there? really? well they shouldn't have done that" statement. I identified myself with ID and then was asked to wait for TSA...
Well I've seen and heard enough horror stories about that organization to not stick around. If this was any indication to the competency of TSA's or the airlines firearm handling.... then yeah I'll just take my stuff and go. So I took my rifle and left.

Ever flown into Alaska during hunting season? If so, then your mind would explode.

In short, What Willie Sutton said.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"I know that the ground crew and baggage handlers do not go through the TSA security checks that passengers and Flight crew including pilots go through"


That's because they are not getting on the airliner and as a result are not in a position to shoot and kill the flight crew or to take control of the aircraft and fly it into the Pentagon.

1: Theft prevention is a completely different security issue than flight threat security.

2: Theft prevention is not the job of the TSA, and it is taken more or less seriously at a huge variety of different locations and by a huge number of different organizations.

3: The TSA requirements are that bags checked for transport are screened before they are accepted as baggage for their potential to cause loss of an aircraft. Part of that is carte-blanche power to open a bag for inspection, even if that means breaking into it. If you declare a firearm, your bag is exempt from that carte-blanche regulation. That's the only reason you declare your firearm... so that it is EXEMPT from being able to be broken into by TSA for an inspection. Again: The declaration is there to protect your property, not to "put you on a watch list" or to "ensure any sort of anti-theft security measure will be put on your bag" Once the bag is accepted as "not a danger" the TSA could care less what happens at the other end. Their job is done... Adios Amigo.... enjoy your flight.

4: After the TSA gives the OK for a bag to go aboard the jet, all other decisions are airline corporate ones. And the airlines, by law not knowing that there's a firearm in your bag, handle it as cheaply and efficiently as possible. If it's stolen at the other end by a guy who walks into the bag claim area and grabs it.... it's just another anonomous stolen bag to the airline. Sorry Charlie... your bag got ripped off. "Aww too bad... ya'll probably shouldn't have had that "Bushmaster Rifles" sticker on the outside.... here's your $50 claim check because that's what the Chicago Convention says your bag is worth. Now have a free bag of peanuts... and get outta here. Next customer please!"

5: The bottom line is that because the theft prevention part of the equation is just "business" as opposed to a "Governmental Legal Requirement" the airlines do whatever the level of security is that "works" from the standpoint of not needing to pay too many lost bag claims while at the same time keeing things as cheap as possible. If you want better security... you need to pay for it. See my note about FEDEX above


Yes there is some overlap between anti-terrorism security and anti-theft security (bag handlers placing explosives, etc.,) but in general it's two completely different subjects. Bag handlers do not have access to the passenger compartment of a jet, nor do TSA officers. TSA officers have VERY limited access to the ramp area where the aircraft are actually sitting. Compartmentalizing access is a large part of security: Do you really think that the average TSA screener can get out to the jet? No way... he's in his compartment at the x-ray machine. He's not going any further downstream.


Willie

.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Both post #26 and #29 by Willie Sutton are excellent explanations of how the system works and should address all of the OP's concerns/expectations

 

[we are not amused]

"I know that the ground crew and baggage handlers do not go through the TSA security checks that passengers and Flight crew including pilots go through"


That's because they are not getting on the airliner and as a result are not in a position to shoot and kill the flight crew or to take control of the aircraft and fly it into the Pentagon.


.

True, but if I wanted to down an airliner, I can think of a lot of ways of doing it without getting on the airliner. And ground crew or baggage handlers would be a good place to start.

The silliness of putting pilots through the same process as the passengers, just point out the stupid paranoia of it all.

 

[Racinfan83]

OK guys - I AM a baggage handler for a major airline. Many years of experience.
As far as the gun on the carousel goes - we have no idea what is in the cases. If you have one shaped like a rifle - then there is a really good chance it is one. If it is a gun sized case with a bunch of military bags - good chance it is one. Other then that - we don't have a clue. Not all agents are familiar with the stickers, brands, and logos of the shooting world - so that isn't a clue either. Locks on a case could mean there is an expensive guitar or pool cue in it. Contrary to popular belief - baggage handlers do not open up and rummage through your stuff. We don't have time - and we really don't care what's in it. I know for a fact of dent removal companies and helicopter mechanics that carry their tools in gun cases. So if it goes on the carousel - it goes. We have asked for a foolproof way for them to let us know what is inside - but they won't do that. In reality - if we walked every bag that COULD contain a gun to the BSO - every single bag would get hand carried. SO it is what it is. It may be on the carousel - it may get carried to baggage service. My advice is for you to wait by the carousel until the last bag for your flight comes down - and then go to the bag office. Keep in mind if we do have a recognizable gun case - we aren't going to stop dropping the other bags to make the long walk through security doors and such for your gun. You will get it LAST.

And yes - we get the same background checks that every other person who has access to the SIDA does. Including pilots and crew. Contract or not. It gets rechecked every year.

SO - in a nutshell - we as baggage handlers don't know what is in your luggage unless by some chance it pops open due to faulty latches or zippers. While we attempt to handle your stuff with somewhat of "care" - you must realize that we are under a time crunch and cannot "lift and gently place" each piece. Your luggage will get tossed into aircraft bins and carts. (And yes there is a difference between a controlled toss and THROWN) Carts are steel and will break stuff. Bags fall off beltloaders onto concrete. We stack 50-70 bags in each cart. If yours is on the bottom it has a lot of weight on it. Figure each bag averages 35-50lbs and x by 50. You MUST pack with these things in mind.

Anyone who complains about baggage handlers should try it sometime. I deal with literally thousands of bags in an 8 hour shift - from 5 lbs to 100lbs. Most of em I handle twice. We have multiple gates to deal with, transfer bags going all over the ramp, and many other obstacles including extreme weather conditions. Not to mention the dangers we face from multiple sources. It is not an easy job - and it destroys your body. Fill up your suit case - get on your knees by the bed, put the case 4' away, drag the case to you and stack it on the bed. Take it down and push it 4 feet away from you. Repeat about 100 times. That would be the equivalent of one FLIGHT of my work...

Both post #26 and #29 by Willie Sutton are excellent explanations of how the system works and should address all of the OP's concerns/expectations

Exactly ^^^^^^

 

[jamesjames]

Well there is certainly a wealth of information to be gleaned here. I know my eyes have been opened and I appreciate the wisdom of not just the baggage handler and the former pilot, but all who have contributed.

I now know what reasonable expectations are for flying with long guns. I now know what I need to do to case the long gun(s) more securely. And I now know where to stand at the baggage carousel to wait for my cased rifle.

Its a pitty that it took this much discussion to clarify all of this.

 

[Bubbles]

By the way, I understand most baggage handlers are subcontracted employees, and are not subjected to background checks, something about union rules.

IIRC there were several busts at Dulles Int'l in VA where illegals were hired as baggage handlers and construction workers back in 2006 and 2008. Hopefully security has been tightened up since then.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ and there are bad cops, and dishonest lawyers, and corrupt politicians, and child molesters working as teachers, and <fill in the blanks>... anytime you deal with society you deal with people, and when you want to hire thousands of them you are going to end up with some that are not clean as the new driven snow.... baggage handlers and airport workers of all sorts included. It's the real world... live within it.

In general the security at airports, both of the counter-terrorism sort and the anti-theft sort is pretty good.


Willie

.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Similar thing happened to me years ago. I thought I'd have to go to luggage claim where an airline employee would hand it to me. While waiting for my luggage, it popped out on the carousel before my luggage.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Hi Gary,

This is a common disconnect. People confuse declaring a firearm so it's let go thru security with it being given some sort of special handling once its accepted. It's understandable, but is not what happens (or why we declare them)


The only packages I ever knew getting special treatment were live animals, and human organs for transplants. Those were hand carried in small igloo coolers in the cockpit.

Willie

.

 

[PavePusher]

I flew on AirTran today. Its the carrier I normally choose for this particular trip and I have flown multiple times with firearms using this carrier. I've never had a problem before until today. I went the baggage carousel and informed the baggage attendant that I have a checked firearm that I'm waiting for. She informs me that she'll let me know if they bring it to her. Sometimes it arrives at the baggage attendant by TSA, or customer service, but sometimes it arrives at the TSA office. I go to the carousel because it's the easiest place for someone to take it and can usually determine its location by having the baggage attendant radio in.
So I'm standing their and notice that my rifle case is sitting near the customer service office. They have a roped off area with baggage in it... and mine is sitting outside that roped in area. So I politely asked why did they put my rifle outside the roped area... right in front of another flights carousel? Well basically I got the.. "Theres a gun in there? really? well they shouldn't have done that" statement. I identified myself with ID and then was asked to wait for TSA...
Well I've seen and heard enough horror stories about that organization to not stick around. If this was any indication to the competency of TSA's or the airlines firearm handling.... then yeah I'll just take my stuff and go. So I took my rifle and left.

Just a warning and word of advice to those who will be traveling with firearms. Also make sure you print out TSA rules as well as the Airline's rules concerning firearms and have them with you.

While it might seem odd to us, not everyone knows what a rifle case looks like, or that it might be a good idea to give them some extra security. That could be good or bad.

 

[Slamfire]

Airlines: People are cargo that complains.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^^

Flight attendant to the First Officer as she hands him the count-manifest:

"Ya got 200 bags, 100 Mags, and three U-nacks..."

(First Officer is doing Weight and Balance pre-departure while the Captain reads the Wall Street Journal).

Translated: 200 bags at 23.5 pounds each (don't laugh, it's the official FAA average bag-weight) and 100 Mags ("Maggots" = passengers = 165 pounds each of smelly complaining cargo that laughably the FAA has said averages 165 pounds each in the summer and 170 pounds each in the winter....)

U-nack = Unaccompanied Minor.. and you do NOT want to lose them.

'Bags and Mags".... Ahh... memories of the line...


And you thought your rifle case was going to get special treatment?


Smile,


Willie


.


"I am the Captain sitting left of the nose,
and so, you copilot, what I say goes.
You think you're king because you're young and you're smart.
I may be old, but don't call me old fart.
I been flying these things since you were in diapers,
while the biggest you'd flown was one of those Pipers.
Your logbook shows hours a hundred times ten,
but those flights were all flown with a Papermate pen.....

To be continued (Ode to a Copilot, written by an old friend with whom I shared more than one thunderstorm...)