Recoil issues and eyesight, etc.

[Lone Star]

I've had some lightning flashes in vision that have settled down. I gather that many men get these as they age. I'm 62 now. I do have a small hole in my left eye's macula, but the opthalmologist says this isn't an issue in shooting rifles or shotguns. Recoil, he says, isn't an issue, and a second doc at that clinic confirmed it.

But I don't know that they're right: neither shoots.

On another forum, an optometrist says otherwise, and that I'd be wise to not shoot shoulder-fired guns anymore, at least if much recoil is produced.

My main concern is firing a .30/06 Sako off the bench, as that would exaggerate recoil over firing from a field position.


But my sole shotgun now is a 12 ga. M870 Wingmaster. I can't afford a 20 ga. auto now, which would probably make sense if recoil is an issue.

Now: I've heard that a 20 ga. may kick as hard as a 12 ga., because the gun is lighter, especially if a similar weight shot charge is fired.

If you hunted dove, maybe quail and possibly pheasant, and squirrels or rabbits, and used size 6 to 7.5 shot, and you wanted to make a slide-action 12 ga. kick as little as feasible consistent with good performance, which loads would you choose, and how would they relate to recoil from a 20 ga.?

In other words, if I decide that the two docs in the clinic know what they're talking about, but want to err on the safe side, can I still use my 12 ga, and get about the same recoil I would with a lighter 20 ga.?

Is there an eye doc here who can comment on any of this? Does recoil in rifles or shotguns maybe jar the head/eyes enough that it might lead to eye problems, including a detached retina?

I have severe nasal allergy and asthma, and do sneeze violently at times, and have read that even this can cause eye problems.

Thanks,
Lone Star

 

[Ailog]

Excellent question. The same issue concerns me also. Much of the issue is to try to limit as much of the shock part of the recoil transmitted from your shoulder to your head. I would say as a minimum don't snuggle your cheek real tight on the stock to help minimize the g forces transmitted to the head. I havn't shot my 20 guage for awhile pondering the same situation.

 

[T.R.]

A ported barrel does more for recoil reduction than a thick pad.
TR

 

[Dave McCracken]

TR, would you kindly cite the source of your statement? Runs counter to Brister, Roster and my experience.

Lone Star, one of the Geezer Squad had a detached retina and had to quit shooting everything but 410s and 22s. He's back now, but had a couple rough years.

The load you're looking for is a 7/8 oz one. Remington's new Managed Recoil load, Winchester Feather loads and the ultra light from Fiocchi will bust targets way out dere.

I use a 7/8 reload. So do most of the Geezers. One fellow with a Model 12 has hit 24/25 with them from BEHIND the 27 yard line recently.

These are creampuffs in an 870. A good pad, adding a little weight and some modifications in technique will also help.

Those mods include getting more behind your shotgun so the whole upper body takes the kick, gripping tightly and pulling the weapon firmly into the shoulder.

HTH....

 

[dfaugh]

Well, I've had both lenses in my eyes replaced (cataracts) and have some other vision problems. My eye doctor is considered one of the best in the country, if not the world, as he's helped develop new treatments for all kinds of eye problems (in conjunction with an area research hospital, which is also considered one of the best). I asked him about shooting/recoil, and he said that there is NO reason to be concerned, and that recoil shouldn't have any negative effects on my vision. FWIW.

 

[RNB65]

Also try a Browning shooting vest which has a REACTOR gel pad. Those things really work.

I dubious about the ported barrel theory. I've shot both ported and unported O/U's quite a bit and could not tell any difference with felt recoil.

 

[Lone Star]

dfaugh-

Are you sure that he understood that the cheek is in contact with the stock of the gun, and that the whole body absorbs recoil? This is the key issue: most docs have never shot much, and I'm not sure they really understand the question.

If you look at a shooter firing, his head often does seem to snap back a little.

If your doctor says that there is no reason for concern, that is what I'd love to hear. But did he seem to understand what recoil really is, and how it affects the body? One doc I asked is from Boston, and this man actually bragged that he has never fired a gun in his life. Understandably, I am reluctant to assume that he'd know what he's talking about in this area.

However, both Bob Brister and John Wootters had retinal separations, and Wootters seemed to attribute it to heavy recoil over the years, as I recall. He no longer writes, to my knowledge, or he might do another article on this.
Granted, he not only did far more shotgunning than I will, he also shot heavy rifles a lot, .338 Magnum and up. And I'm sure that much of that was done from the bench, on a range, where the body takes the full shock.

Anyone else heard from an eye doc who hunts and who has patients who hunt that recoil is a non-issue, or a small one, if one stays away from goose loads or elephant rifles?

Lone Star

 

[dfaugh]

Are you sure that he understood that the cheek is in contact with the stock of the gun, and that the whole body absorbs recoil? This is the key issue: most docs have never shot much, and I'm not sure they really understand the question.

He's not a shooter, but when I asked the question, he said that he'd been asked it before, by several patients that were shooters. He's been doing this stuff for 30 years, so I figure he knows what he's talking about. He mentioned that while the recoil could be "transmitted" (I'm paraphrasing here) to the head, that your eyes are kinda "loose" or "free" to move within your head. He likend it to a boxer, who takes some SERIOUS shots to the head/face, where its uncommon (although it does happen) for them to have serious vision problems. And if they do its usually because of brain function, not the eye itself.

I dunno...About all I can tell you is that I trust this guy implicitely, both because of his reputation, and the fact that he "fixed" one of my eyes, that was functionally blind (20-600), at one point (its now 20-50, but he said he could even make that better, if I choose. But, I have one that's 20-50, that I use for reading and close up stuff, and the other is 20-15, that I use for driving/distance/shooting. I wore glasses/contacts for years, from age 8 until I hooked up with this guy. Haven't used either for 15 years now.) The last time I saw him, I was having a little trouble with the "distance" eye..He examined me, and said that there was some "cloudiness", which is often a result of the cataract surgery. I thought "Oh, boy, here we go, another surgery!)" He told me to wait a few minutes...Then took me into a room, set me up, and used a laser to correct the problem, in about 30 seconds! Now having the same problem with the "close-up" eye...Time for another visit.

 

[BozemanMT]

Find a Dr that's a shooter. (it not for this case, just because)

Get a bigger heavier gun, even maybe a semi-auto to help eat up recoil.
Shoot the 7/8oz loads. (which work just fine to break things)
get a big pad (I like kick-eze but there are plenty of good ones out there)
Get ported barrels.

All of these things combined should make a VERY soft shooting gun.

I would then get the gun professionally fitted to me. (this makes a big difference)

Then, i would go to an instructor and make sure my stance and mount of the gun is correct and easy shooting on me.

This should help alleviate any issues.

 

[Lone Star]

Will those 7/8th's oz. loads kill real birds efficiently? I'm not a clays shooter.
I think even a dove is tougher than a clay target...

That's a standard load for many 20 ga. shooters, so I guess it should take anything short of a big pheasant rooster to at least 35 yards?? (The gun came with three chokes.)

Thanks,

Lone Star

Oh: because I like the Wingmaster the way it was made, and it came with a recoil pad, and because of a tight budget, I plan to make no alterations, and I haven't handloaded in years. I have to shoot ammo that I can find in stores.
I handpicked that gun for fit and finish and good wood, and I don't plan to change it. If money becomes more available, I will add a 20 ga. auto, a Beretta M391 like one that I had to sell.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Those lightening flashes are indicative of the retina starting to pull loose from the back of the eye. It happened to me and I waited, ending up losing vision, having surgery, getting some vision back, getting cataracks, having surgery, etc. Dr. said that unless I was going after a .700 nitro express, I could shoot all my shoulder could stand. Due to the eyesight, I shoot mostly shotgun and haven't had any problems due to the recoil. I think you get more jarring of the head going down a rutted road in a truck than from shooting.

 

[Lone Star]

oldnamvet-

Thanks! THAT'S good testimony! Surprised that your doc knew about the H&H .700 Express. Few do...

Lone Star

 

[Oldnamvet]

Lone star.

It has been 10 years since my problem year, which included a torn and detached retina. They put a silicone band (scleral buckle) around the eye and cryo spot welded the retina back in place. 6 months later I had cararact surgery on that same poor eye. That was 10 years ago. I shoot about 75-100 rounds of 12 ga. every week, year round, at skeet using a dbl or my pump. I also practice with my K-31 and my 30-06 from the bench. I have had a lot of sore shoulders but no problems with my retina detaching again, tearing again, etc. Your shoulder and neck will absorb the recoil unless you hold the rifle/shotgun really weird. I think then that you would knock yourself out before your eyes would be affected.
In any event, see a retinal surgeon if those flashes start to come back. And if you start to see a black curtain coming up from the bottom -- hurry since the retina is starting to detach.

 

[Lone Star]

oldnamvet-

Did they tell you what caused your eye problem in the first place?

Great detail, by the way! Very good info...

Lone Star

 

[Oldnamvet]

Lone Star,
I had a "lattice defect" which is a thin spot in the retina. Being nearsighted, the retina is thinner anyway and some concussions (too close to cannon fire) a long time ago weakened it further. One day, it just tore and began detaching. No particular event caused it at that time. Just the luck of the draw. When I realized what had happened (no pain at all), I called the Dr and he had me traveling about 90 miles to surgeon specialist. I was in the operating room 5 hours later.

 

[Lone Star]

oldnamvet-

I'm also nearsighted, and wear glasses. Maybe I'm in a high risk group...

Thanks!

Lone Star

 

[Oldnamvet]

Lone Star -- yes you are. The more nearsighted, the more you are at risk. And it gets worse (doesn't everything? ) with age.