Recoil Spring Study

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Yep, Tom. You can juggle springs and change the ejection pattern. That's not a new thing. The change comes from the speed of the case when it hits the ejector.

That's not the spring's function, though. It's just one thing that can be manipulated by different spring rates. It's important to some...not so much to others. Personally, as long as the case clears the port and doesn't hit me on the noggin, I don't care where it lands.
 
I took my Dan Wesson Razorback to the range today, after having done the squared firing pin stop and heavy mainspring mod to it, same as my Delta Elite.

I find that I need to change recoil springs depending on what I shoot. I had an 18 pound spring in and was shooting Georgia Arms Canned Heat ammo, worked beautifully, put all the brass literally right together in a nice pile about 4 feet away.

Switched to my SWC barely Major reloads and was crushing some brass, had to drop to 16 pound recoil spring. I was surprised that small amount of spring change would make such a difference. I'm still learning from all this.
 
The slide on an autopistol is no more than a bolt. It performs exactly the same function as the bolt in a self-loading rifle. The spring that powers it does exactly the same thing that it does to the rifle bolt and in exactly the same way. It gets compressed by the bolt...and when it stops...it pushes the bolt forward. In both weapons, that's what the spring is put there to do, and that's pretty much all.
Just to make sure we're on the same page...

You're asserting that when a manufacturer recommends that the recoil spring on a particular pistol needs to be changed very frequently (for example, some of the new crop of tiny pistols in service pistol calibers apparently need springs every 1K rounds or so if you believe the manufacturers), they're saying that if you don't change the springs that frequently, your gun will begin to have feeding problems as the spring gradually gets too weak to properly return the slide to battery.

You're further asserting that they are not saying that using the recoil springs too long will be deleterious to the major components of the pistols as the increased impact forces due to the decreased deceleration effects of the weakened spring batter the slide and frame.
 
No, What they are saying is that they didn't have a large enough envelope for an adequately deisgned spring, so they sacrificed part life, by overstressing the spring they could actually get to fit.
 
John...I never said any of those things. I don't know where you're reading that.

I said that the spring's function is to return the slide, and that whatever else it does is incidental...and that if the user decides to juggle spring rates to achieve a desired effect on the gun's handling characteristics, he is using the spring for something besides what its purpose is. It can be done. It doesn't prove that's what it was designed to do.

I said that the notion that a heavier spring is needed in shorter/lighter/faster slides to prevent frame destruction is unfounded because:

The slide doesn't hit the frame all that hard to start with...even without a spring, and:

There isn't enough difference in the guns' frame impact to make it necessary, and:

I said that the heavier springs are put there to give the less massive slides enough velocity to create the momentum that is required for a reliable return to battery.

As an aside, I've let the springs in mine go far beyond the recommended change schedule in order to prove that the frame won't be damaged. Far beyond. I've run very light springs for thousands of rounds. My frames' abutments are just fine. Other than having no bluing on them, they look like new.

I believe that Jim K ran a Norinco for about 8,000 rounds with the OEM spring without issues. Ask him.

This "Frame Destruction" business is fostered by people who have a dog in the fight. They sell springs. They really want you to buy a dozen.

Now, if you want to believe that you're saving your frames with heavy-duty springs and shock buffs, or by changing springs every 2,000 rounds...or every 200 rounds if you want to...it ain't a thing to me. Believe it if you want. The evidence just doesn't support it.
 
The whole time I've spent reading this thread, thinking that I've gotten a basic understanding of what the recoil spring's main purpose is (to return the slide to battery,) I'm wondering if experimenting with my Detonics MK VI's recoil spring (to a lighter one) would work. I don't know if the "smaller guns must have stronger recoil springs" hype was alive 30 years ago or it was an actual necessity - do you have an opinion? (Tuner, I've read your thread re: how no compact 1911 is reliable but I've had this gun almost 30 years so I think it's in my stable to stay.)

...or, maybe I'll just fit a small radius FPS to my new Bear UTC since it's the only one of my 1911's that doesn't have one (except the Detonics) and just keep on loving 1911s and shooting them.

Thanks for the inciteful discussion.
 
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jblack...Shorter, less massive slides do require stronger springs to accelerate them to velocities that are high enough to provide the necessary momentum for feeding...but some of them seem to go completely off the scale. As far as your Detonics goes...you'll just have to experiment and see. I've taken a few Colt Commander springs all the way down to 12 pounds without feeding problems. Others require more. None have needed more than 16 pounds. It's pretty much up to the gun and how well it feeds to start with. One thing I do know. The heavier the spring, the sharper the felt recoil and the quicker my hand tires in a long range session.

As for the conventional wisdom, I've gone in the opposite direction for years. Instead of the heaviest spring that allows the slide to lock, or judging it by how far from the gun the brass lands...I use the lightest spring that still puts the slide in battery up to 500 rounds with a dirty gun...and my ammo is pretty funky. Home case bullets with soft lube and Unique. For my beaters, that means 16 pounds. On my spankin' clean carry guns...14 pounds is just fine and 16 for the Commanders.

So, it boils down to feed/return to battery reliability, especially as the gun starts to get dirty. That's when too little spring will tell the tale.
 
And, as I believe was mentioned before, magazine spring tension would play a part in what one could get by with downsizing recoil spring mostly having to do with how much or little tension was on the round to be fed next, right?
 
Well...Ya don't want to lighten up on the magazine spring. Most of'em are too light to start with. I've ended a buncha feed problems with 11-pound Wolff springs in 7-round magazines.

Feeding is more a matter of feed and barrel ramp geometry and extractor tension and deflection.

If you're concerned with slide speed/impact, there are better ways to accomplish that without the problems associated with over springing the slide, starting with the mainspring.
 
great thread!!!!.....only reason i go up or down on rates is so i don't have to chase brass for 2 county's....learned what your teachin' tuner from a ol'boy back in the early 90's.....he played with a lot of 1911's....."he always said if it ain't broke don't fix it"....
 
1911Tuner said:
John...I never said any of those things. I don't know where you're reading that.
I thought I was reading it from what you were saying. You seemed to be saying that recoil springs were only bolt/slide return springs and that would mean that their primary function is providing enough return force to insure proper feeding.
1911Tuner said:
Shorter, less massive slides do require stronger springs to accelerate them to velocities that are high enough to provide the necessary momentum for feeding...
It appears, in fact, that IS what you're saying.
1911Tuner said:
So, it boils down to feed/return to battery reliability, especially as the gun starts to get dirty. That's when too little spring will tell the tale.
It further appears that you're saying the symptom of too weak a spring is feeding problems, particularly with a dirty gun.

So, if we accept all this as fact, then when a manufacturer recommends frequent spring replacement, it follows that what they're concerned with a weakened/worn spring no longer providing enough return force to insure proper feeding. i.e. They want you to change it frequently so it keeps performing its bolt/slide return function properly.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I said in my last post?

Which gets me to my next question. I'm thinking of one particular manufacturer, that after having a particular product on the market for many years, suddenly started informally (or at least quietly) recommending much more frequent spring replacement. However, and here's the problem. They were not addressing complaints about feed reliability with this recommendation, they were addressing component failures and durability issues. It seems to have been an effective tactic, effective enough that the company recently released a new crop of pistols using an entirely different spring design to address the issue.

The question is this. Are we really sure enough about this general theory that we can come straight out and say that this manufacturer simply doesn't understand how their own guns work?
 
It further appears that you're saying the symptom of too weak a spring is feeding problems, particularly with a dirty gun.

That's exactly what I'm saying. If there is any consideration given to frame impact and damage by the engineers...which I strongly doubt...it's a very minor consideration.

Isn't that pretty much exactly what I said in my last post?

Maybe it's me...and maybe I didn't take enough time to read it due to haste and time constraints...but it seems like all I've gleaned from the arguments is that spring change and/or heavy springs and shock buffs are necessary to prevent frame damage...which just doesn't happen in normal use. It doesn't happen with pretty heavy use, either. If so, I apologize.

Or maybe it's because I expect it to the extent that I half read these claims and skip to the evidence. If so...I apologize again.

It's gotten so ridiculous that I've even seen the insistance to switch springs according to the ammunition. Understandable to go light if the ammo is of the powderpuff variety...but dire warnings of frame damage and to switch to heavier springs for +P...in a carry gun...is just a bit absurd. If the gun won't stand 7-8 rounds of +P with the stock spring, it's subject to come unwrapped with any reasonable spring.

Or, maybe I've been trying to get these points across for so long that I've gotten a little impatient and hair-triggered in my old age.

At any rate, it falls into the same category as:

"OMG! They're letting them carry concealed weapons! There's gonna be blood in the streets like Dodge City and Tombstone!"

And it just hasn't happened. They still keep screamin' about it, though.
 
This has been so much fun and very educational at the same time that I started thinking about the Star PD's that I have. They are known for chewing up the plastic recoil buffers and they have very light recoil springs.
They are built on very similar 1911 specs and were the first of the imported, compact and light weight (alloy framed) .45's.
Now I'm wondering what can be done to tame them? Hmmmmm.

10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.
 
Ok, here's where I was going with my question last night.

A couple of years ago, a Glock employee told me that they were now recommending that the springs in the .40 Glocks should be changed every 3,000 rounds to address durability issues. Apparently it was enough of a problem that they went on to design & introduce the Gen 4 Glocks with the primary change being a new recoil spring design.

Last night, I didn't want to dig out any reference material, but I had some spare time this evening so I found this.

From the 2010 Glock Annual, page 9 from the article entitled "First Look Glock's Fantastic Fourth", Christopher Edwards.

"With the advent of the .40 cartridge, combined with greatly increased practice firing, the single spring needed to be checked frequently and occasionally changed to prevent accelerated wear."

So, here's the question again: Are we really sure enough about this general theory that we can come straight out and say that this manufacturer simply doesn't understand how their own guns work?
 
decelerating the slide is half the recoil spring function. the other half is accelerating the slide the other way. what part the spring plays in total deceleration, i do not know.

from what i gather from the above conversations is that unless you up the fired cartridges momentum beyond manufacturer's tolerances, you should leave the recoil spring alone.

murf
 
Intriguing

As a 10mm enthusiast, I've also wondered about the merits of swapping a spring by a few pounds to save the dreaded frame damage.
After reading the thread, I've got but two points to touch on: the primal purpose of the spring is well understood from what has been discussed at length. I especially liked the comment concerning what the spring pressure actually does based on compressive strength vs length of the spring and rated capacity.

The only other things I'd like to throw in as variables are Metallurgy and Fatigue.
As we all know, the metallurgy is as important as any other variable of the entire weapon. I do a lot of heat treating on custom knives, and it was the most interesting point of the process to get absolutely perfect while learning. A process that can vary by only a few degrees can be the difference between the relative analogy of cast iron versus ceramic dishes. Treat either one either normally or abusively, and each will hold their own... to a certain threshold.
Point being, if the science behind the metal of a slide or frame isn't done with precise manufacture, springs will be the least of your worries. The forces involved with containing the explosion of gun powder is transferred directly into the metal, and while firearms have come a long way in modernizing these principles, essentially we're still doing what the forefathers were a hundred years ago. Maybe a little faster with computers, etc., and better, faster and hotter burning propellants. Precision is debatable, concerning 'bang for the buck', pun intended.

The other consideration (and surely not the 'only' variable) I'd like to touch on is fatigue.
Firing round after round builds up heat. Going through x number of heat cycles has an effect on the weapon, and once again, its resistance to damage on the microscopic level will inevitably depend on the quality and precision of the base materials when constructed, like steel versus aluminum.
Steel is stronger in thinner measurements versus the same piece in aluminum, but its heavy.
On the other hand, aluminum is a great heat sink. Its also far softer and has a lower melting point. Once you cross that threshold, it becomes exceptionally brittle. I would venture to say that heat cycles and friction also lead to spring fatigue, as much as the actual use of their intended purpose. The example of the old, used GI 1911 with thousands and thousands of rounds down the tube fired without a spring is a great example of the materials used back then: good old fashioned iron and steel, just like the cars of the day. Durable and strong because of the metal used, and not because of 'advanced construction'. Those guys did it without computers and CNC machines.

Anyway, even if the spring is doing its job, there's other gremlins at work in the machine. If the metallurgy isn't there from the get go, a spring with a few additional pounds might be enough to compensate for the x factor in the materials on a mass production weapon. This is, of course, how engineers overcome the ratio of part failures throughout the run of produced units.

Overly Simplified: they're playing the odds.
 
Point being, if the science behind the metal of a slide or frame isn't done with precise manufacture, springs will be the least of your worries.

And that's been one of my points for years. Everybody worries about the frame, but it's the slide that takes the real pounding. The slide and barrel assembly is the gun. The frame is just the gun mount.

The breechface gets slammed by 20,000 pounds psi. The lugs in opposition under high shearing forces. The walls of the slide between the first lug and the breechface under tensile stresses that would rip your shoulder out of the socket...and they worry about the frame gettin' kissed by the slide? And they feel like two pounds of spring plus or minus will make any significant difference in that? They feel confident that a 16 pound spring is fine with standard hardball, but that somehow 230-grain +P will destroy the frame within 200 rounds unless they run an 18-pound spring?

Please...

The slide has an impact abutment, too...but nobody seems to remember or consider that. According to Newton, the slide's abutment gets hit equally as hard as the frame's. No?
 
All I can say to posts #63 and 64 is that Star and Glock pistols are not 1911s.
I don't know what the service life of a PD is, spring and buffer maintenance or not.

Glock addressed the "problem" of .40 spring durability with a new double spring setup on the Seecamp pattern. Unfortunately they also afflicted the perfectly satisfactory 9mms with it, too.
 
decelerating the slide is half the recoil spring function. the other half is accelerating the slide the other way.

It does do that, but decelerating the slide is a byproduct of being compressed, and is essentially irrelevant to the spring's intended role. Compressing isn't a function of a spring. It it were, you could lay the spring on a table and it would start to compress and extend itself. If you force the spring to compress, and release the spring, it will extend itself with no other action required on your part.

In an internal combustion engine, the function of the valve spring is closing the valve...not resisting its opening.

The spring's function is in returning to a relaxed state, or trying to. Pushing. Compression can only occur when something happens to it that forces it to compress.
 
This has been so much fun and very educational at the same time that I started thinking about the Star PD's that I have. They are known for chewing up the plastic recoil buffers and they have very light recoil springs.
They are built on very similar 1911 specs and were the first of the imported, compact and light weight (alloy framed) .45's.
Now I'm wondering what can be done to tame them? Hmmmmm.

10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.
Out side of the fact that there is a new supply of plastic recoil buffers avialable for the Star PD at [email protected] there is little that I see that can be done for the problem outside of increasing the hammer spring weight in the PD because there is no replaceable firing pin stop as there is in the 1911.
The best recommendation for it is like Jeff Cooper said, "Shoot it little and carry it alot". Shoot the 1911 and carry the Star, PD, if you have one?

10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.
 
The slide has an impact abutment, too...but nobody seems to remember or consider that. According to Newton, the slide's abutment gets hit equally as hard as the frame's. No?
Correct. The issue is that a slide can be replaced fairly easily but when a frame cracks you either live with it, repair it or scrap it. And the first two options may not be feasible depending on a number of variables.

The barrel also hits the frame (in the simplest analysis) and it is stopped early in the recoil cycle before the spring has much of a chance to do any significant deceleration. In my opinion, that's where you get the biggest benefit from things like the slide/firing pin stop geometry where it impinges on the hammer spring and from the strength of the hammer spring itself. That's the only significant means of declerating the slide/barrel early in the recoil cycle before the barrel hits its stop.

By the way, I see that no one commented on the information I quoted in my last post. Are we just going to ignore the fact that Glock believes that their guns derive a durability benefit from frequent recoil spring replacement because it doesn't fit our theory?
 
Correct. The issue is that a slide can be replaced fairly easily but when a frame cracks you either live with it, repair it or scrap it. The issue is that a slide can be replaced fairly easily but when a frame cracks you either live with it...

And how many frames or slides have you seen with impact abutments damaged to the point of being unserviceable? The frame cracks at the junction of spring tunnel and rails are the result of thin cross-sections and sharply machined corners. The cracks are more the result of flexing and vibration and they're self-limiting even in cast frames. I've got several pistols with those cracks that occurred many years and many tens of thousands of rounds ago. The cracks haven't grown and the guns still function just fine. No need to replace the frame.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Glock believes that their guns derive a durability benefit from frequent recoil spring replacement because it doesn't fit our theory?

But we're not talking about plastic. We're talking about steel. The spring's primary function is returning the bolt. Whatever else it does in the process...or whatever else anyone decides to use the spring for is secondary to that.

The barrel also hits the frame (in the simplest analysis) and it is stopped early in the recoil cycle before the spring has much of a chance to do any significant deceleration.

Correct...and it makes my point. By the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the assembly is so greatly decelerated by the bullet's delaying influence that the slide just isn't moving that fast...neither does it hit the impact abutment very hard...even with the spring removed from the equation.

I'll take one more stab at the energy/momentum argument in impact damage.

You have a brick wall that you have to knock down. You have two hammers to choose from. A carpenter's hammer and a 10-pound sledge. Are you going with speed and energy...or mass and momentum?
 
The frame cracks at the junction of spring tunnel and rails are the result of thin cross-sections and sharply machined corners. The cracks are more the result of flexing and vibration and they're self-limiting even in cast frames.
Parts tend to break where they're weak, not necessarily at the points where impact force is applied. The fact that the frames don't break at the impact abutments is neither here nor there. The impact causes the frame to flex and vibrate and that causes cracks in the locations that you describe (locations where cracks are likely to form as a result of the frame design).

The self-limiting aspect of the cracks is irrelevant, the question is whether or not their formation can be eliminated or at least discouraged by reducing the vibration and flexing caused by the application of impact force. It's great that they tend to not destroy the frame, but all else being equal, we'd all rather have uncracked frames than frames with cracks that are self-limiting.
But we're not talking about plastic. We're talking about steel.
It wasn't the plastic frames breaking, my understanding was that the issue was the steel locking blocks weren't holding up as well as the manufacturer intended them to. This was initially addressed with a redesign of the locking blocks and then finally with the Gen4 recoil spring.
By the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the assembly is so greatly decelerated by the bullet's delaying influence that the slide just isn't moving that fast.
The bullet's motion (along with the other ejecta momentum) is what generates the recoil. The slide will be moving as fast as conservation of momentum dictates it will, and all you need to know to calculate that is the muzzle momentum of the ejecta and the mass of the slide/barrel

Talk about the bullet's delaying influence is a red herring. Any delaying influence (assuming that any exists or even assuming none exists) induced by bullet friction can be TOTALLY neglected once the bullet exits because all you need to know to calculate slide/barrel velocity is the momentum of the ejecta and the mass of the slide/barrel. Any bullet/barrel friction will result in a slower bullet velocity and lower bullet momentum and that will, in turn result in a slower slide velocity. It's all ALREADY wrapped into the muzzle momentum.
You have a brick wall that you have to knock down. You have two hammers to choose from. A carpenter's hammer and a 10-pound sledge. Are you going with speed and energy...or mass and momentum?
Well, first of all, the carpenter's hammer has a much shorter handle and that means that the head speed will be much slower than the head speed of a long-handled sledge since head speed is also a factor of handle length, not just the angular velocity of the swing. That means it will have much less speed and mass and therefore much less momentum AND much less energy.

If we assume that the hammers both have about the same handle length, then a person of reasonable strength would be able to swing both hammers with roughly the same head speed. You would expect to get a faster swing with the lighter hammer, but probably not even a 2x improvement. For the heck of it, let's assume a 2x speed advantage for the lighter hammer. Since the head of the sledge is at least 10x more than the head of the carpenter's but the swing speed is only 2x slower, the heavier hammer head results in both more momentum (5x more) AND more energy (2.5x more) even though the head velocity is slower for the heavier hammer.

Basically, your problem, as stated, is meaningless because your assumptions don't follow. A typical carpenter's hammer doesn't have more velocity (due to the short handle) and certainly not more energy than a typical long-handled 10lb sledge. The 10lb sledge wins in every category. Even if we try to even things out with similar handle lengths, a long-handled carpenter's hammer still probably won't have more energy because you'd have to be able to swing it more than 3x faster to compensate for a 10x advantage in head mass that the sledge has.
 
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1911tuner, suggest you call it a "slide return spring" instead of a recoil spring. apparently, the originator of that name was not aware of its function.

murf
 
But he was, murf. Browning referred to it as the reaction spring...not the recoil spring...and described its function, which didn't include deceleration of the slide or any mention of buffering or softening the blow.

It's in the patents. Look it up.
 
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