Recommend an AK

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GunTech

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I haven't looked at AKs in about 10 years, and am thinking it's time to have another one. In the past I've been disappointed by the accuracy, and I don't expect it has gotten any better. But I suspect that there is a good chance of another ban if there is an administration chance.

I any case, I am looking for another AK and have a couple of questions.

How available is 5.45x39? I am thinking either an AK-74 in 5.45 or 223. I have tons of 223 ammo (think tens of thousands of rounds) so a 223 AK would be handy.

I'd like the AK-74 style brake, and synthetic furniture. Not interested in a folding stock, but one of the longer stocks, made for us big Americans would be handy. A very casual internet search took me to Atlantic firearm. This one looks like it has the feartures I want, but I know nothing about their quality, availability of mags, etc.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=271

I haven't totally discounted 7.62x39, but as I say, I have lots of 223.

Thanks for the input.
 
More details.

I plan to mount an Ultimak sight rail on the rifle, so the ability to accept an Ultimak is a requirement.

Thanks
 
for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy?? :scrutiny: :scrutiny:


its downright ignorant to THINK of getting a .223 AK, .....all youre getting is a MORE reliable Ar15, but FAR LESS accurate.......senseless....

senseless!!!!!! :cuss:
 
Calm down and breathe a little. guntech wasn't knocking your AK, he was just curious about other options aside from 7.62x39.
 
for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy??
Click to expand...

Close. You need to dust off you copy of Hitchman. 90% of all infantry small arms fire occurs at 300 yards or less. Only 70% is at 100 yards or less, with the average range in open country (for example the ETO) of about 75 yards.

See: "Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon" by Norman Hitchman, and published by ORO, Johns Hopkins University. This is the only detailed study of smallarms fire in combat conducted to date. it covers WWII and Korea, and is supported by data collected in Vietnam and several Arab-Israeli conflicts - not to mention the ACR tests of the 1980's.

Why a reasonably accurate AK? Because this is going to by a play rifle for potting small creatures, not a combat rifle. Why 223? Because I have tens of thousands of rounds of 223 - well, 38,000 anyway.

I would like good quality, excellent durability and an availability of parts and magazines. I'd like 3 MOA, which will make it adequate for casual rodent blasting while still being realistic about what the AK is capable of. I'm thinking I'll order around 50 mags if I can get them for around $20 each.
 
I looked at the Arsenal AK and norticed there is no provision for a muzzle brake. The do want some moeny for them. I can recall buying AK for about $200 when I had my FFL (prior to the ARB). Sigh.
 
HMMMM very intresting rant actually particularily as it is repeated on several threads. It becomes even more intersting when we look at the other threads where Ancient Philosophy there has participated stating how much he dearly loves the AK and in particular the Yugo Underfolder to such extent that he posted this thread

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=290352

here on the high road, this same pic and post apears on AKFILES under

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26082

this pic apears in similar threads on other forums but yet it seems are friend here while so into building AK underfolders has not learned just how accurate an AK really is to constantly be making these rants regarding it being useless past 100 yards, this is extremally confusing as anyone who has ever built more than two AK pattern rifles will tell ya very quikly without much provocation just how accurate the rifle actually is out to 400 yards and that the stiffer reciever used for the Yugo version greatly enhances this........ except our friend here who somehow while first time builders end up with screw built Romanian G kits that produce regularily targets that only the blind can fail to be impressed with out to 300 yards yet our friend states he has built 19 Yugo's and still has not figured out how to shoot one out past 100 yards!!

If anyone else can figure out the phenomena please help me out here??

Now as to our original question, the .223 chambered AKs do tend to be flatter shooting at extended ranges however mags are an extra headache and the round itself really is very ineffectual for serious deffensive use...... if ya can live with the .30 cal original I would strongly recomend Ironically the subject of our friends obsession....... the Yugo M70AB2 Its about the only underfolder I really enjoy shooting and While Ancient philosophy apperantly can't build one capable of accuracy past 50-100 yards pretty much every other builder can easily put ya one together capable of very respectable accuracy out to about 350-400 yards I build super customs that will do much better but at about twice the price tag so if ya can live with 400 yards I'd suggest a $450 Century built version, the finish isn't as nice as the higher $$ custom rifles but it does have the exact same match grade barrel the same nodal 1.6 mm fully heat treaded reciever etc....

Good luck on what ya decide......... I'd deffinetly not buy anything built by A-P however... if outa 19 a builder can't get a single accurate rifle ya wanna stay way WAY clear of any rifle that builder has had a hand in building!!
 
"for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy??


its downright ignorant to THINK of getting a .223 AK, .....all youre getting is a MORE reliable Ar15, but FAR LESS accurate.......senseless....

senseless!!!!!! "




Ancient Philosophy

Maybe you need to take a couple more trips to the range or stop believing all that you read on the internet. The AK is not a Sub-Machine gun shooting a pistol cartridge it is a carbine firing an Intermediate cartridge. As GunTech said the AK was DESIGNED for 300M or closer. The Soviets discovered that they didn't need the longer range of a full powered rifle catridge in most situations. And they liked the high rate of fire and capacity that submachine guns had to offer, so they developed the AK and had the best of both worlds.

All Guntech said was that he was "disapointed with the AK's accuracy." which is relative to what you compare it to. In fact I think you greatly discounted its actual and practical accuracy. My SAR-1 shoots 3MOA offhand with Wolf FMJ.

I suspect that an AK chambered in .223 would shoot more accurately than an AK chambered for 7.62X39mm. I am not saying it will ever be as accurate as an AR. But several people I have talked to reload for the AK and have found that greatly tightens there groups and I have read that Russian soldiers shot down telephone wires with AK-74's in Chechnya and .233 is supposed to be more accurate than 5.45X39mm. I think an AK in .223 isn't a bad idea and apparently several world armies don't either. Russia, Bulgaria, Poland and Romania are manufacturing AK's in 5.56X45mm.

An .223 AK probably will have better reliabilty than AR and yes of course it will be less accuracy but everything in life has trades offs. Under field conditions I doubt it will matter much.

GunTech

I say go with .223 if you already have that much ammo its not worth getting another caliber that is ballistically so similiar. All of your requirements are totally doable for an AK chambering .223. Sounds like you want to build an AK-101 with an Ultimak Rail. I can't tell you anything about Atlantic firearms as I have no experience with them. Everything I have ever used by Arsenal was very good.

You could always get a Saiga .223 and set it up the way you want. Its not that difficult and its alot of fun.

As for magazine avialability there are several different .223 AK magazines available. Though I have only used the Wieger Magazines and they worked flawless. AK-74 Magazines can have the followers changed and use .223 ammuntion.

Brother in Arms
 
I didm't like the Saiga .223 honestly. Personal taste only, based on what I thought the bolt assembly "should feel like" when it comes back at me. That's a purely negligible opinion I'm sure.

However, it was as accurate as any AK I've tried. I hear it's uncommon to get worse than 2MOA with them, and plenty of people have claimed 1 MOA but they're certainly better shooters than I am.
 
"for christs sake, the AK47 was DESIGNED as a 100 yard MAX weapon....and in reality a 50 yard or less weapon.


why? .......cause 99% of battlefield conditions showed thats what it was, average of 40 yards.


so.....why again are you bitching about AK accuracy??


its downright ignorant to THINK of getting a .223 AK, .....all youre getting is a MORE reliable Ar15, but FAR LESS accurate.......senseless....

senseless!!!!!! "




Ancient Philosophy

Maybe you need to take a couple more trips to the range or stop believing all that you read on the internet. The AK is not a Sub-Machine gun shooting a pistol cartridge it is a carbine firing an Intermediate cartridge. As GunTech said the AK was DESIGNED for 300M or closer. The Soviets discovered that they didn't need the longer range of a full powered rifle catridge in most situations. And they liked the high rate of fire and capacity that submachine guns had to offer, so they developed the AK and had the best of both worlds.

All Guntech said was that he was "disapointed with the AK's accuracy." which is relative to what you compare it to. In fact I think you greatly discounted its actual and practical accuracy. My SAR-1 shoots 3MOA offhand with Wolf FMJ.

I suspect that an AK chambered in .223 would shoot more accurately than an AK chambered for 7.62X39mm. I am not saying it will ever be as accurate as an AR. But several people I have talked to reload for the AK and have found that greatly tightens there groups and I have read that Russian soldiers shot down telephone wires with AK-74's in Chechnya and .233 is supposed to be more accurate than 5.45X39mm. I think an AK in .223 isn't a bad idea and apparently several world armies don't either. Russia, Bulgaria, Poland and Romania are manufacturing AK's in 5.56X45mm.

An .223 AK probably will have better reliabilty than AR and yes of course it will be less accuracy but everything in life has trades offs. Under field conditions I doubt it will matter much.

GunTech

I say go with .223 if you already have that much ammo its not worth getting another caliber that is ballistically so similiar. All of your requirements are totally doable for an AK chambering .223. Sounds like you want to build an AK-101 with an Ultimak Rail. I can't tell you anything about Atlantic firearms as I have no experience with them. Everything I have ever used by Arsenal was very good.

You could always get a Saiga .223 and set it up the way you want. Its not that difficult and its alot of fun.

As for magazine avialability there are several different .223 AK magazines available. Though I have only used the Wieger Magazines and they worked flawless. AK-74 Magazines can have the followers changed and use .223 ammuntion.

Brother in Arms
 
Yes, AK-101 is exatly the thing. I have no use for folding stocks, which are fine if you need the space in your IFV, but useless otherwise. There are some good folders like those on the FAL Para or The Galil, but most, in my experieve are pretty flimsy and not conducive to good shooting (poor check weld, for example). Folders are a geegaw for people who want to be tactikool.

As far as relative accuracy, I shoot 1000yard tactiocal shoots, and all my precision rifles will do 1/4 MOA. By that standard, or even a well tuned AR or M14 clone, the AK is a bullet hose. I have never seen an AK that would do 2 MOA or better, but I am weilling to be convinced. When we did extensive testing some years ago, the average AK then available was a 4-5 MOA weapon with standard military ammo. That is just fine for a military weapon designed for close combat, but a little frustrating for a civilian shooter trying to hit small targets.

It should be noted that (contrary to what most gunwriters say) the typical hunting rifle with factor ammo is a 2-3 MOA rifle - thus a 2-3 MOA AK is comparable to most hunting rifles sold and thus of the same utility.

Ultimately, why do I want an AK? Because I currently don't own one, and thopught that now is the time to buy, before they get legislated out of existence - expect an assault rifle ban if the dems take the whitehouse.

I found the arsenal version of what I want, and everyone seems to agree that is the model to get. Thanks for all the input. I will report back after I get the rifle and have a chance to test.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=76585736#PIC
 
"Ancient Philosophy there has participated stating how much he dearly loves the AK and in particular the Yugo Underfolder to such extent that he posted this thread"


so what, i also have 14 AR-15s......:scrutiny:

all these 1/4 MOA fools on this thread are the butt of jokes of anyone who was in Vietnam, where the common encounter was 20 inches,...ie the length of their M16s. :evil:

most places on earth are not Afghan. and Iraq.........ie lots of trees and hills........the nonsense of greater than 100 yard shots and the goons i see in gunshops who spent $2000.00+ on a US Optics scope on a Rem700 .300 win mag is nothing but laughing....the "more money than brains" crowd.

so you have 40,000 rounds of .223????? great........buy a nice bull barrel A3 AR15 and $400.00 Leupold 4-14x40 scope and sight it in.

100,000 varieties of AR15s,..........and joe blow is looking after an AK chambered in .223, which is , by design, not close to as accurate as what an AR15 can achieve..........

im not dissing him, but some other posters here talk like their Snipers in Afghanistan with their 1/4 MOA talk............LOL :scrutiny: :neener:

just senseless dribble.
 
quote by DSTORM::
"he doesnt actually know how accurate the AK is out to 400 yards and that the stiffer reciever used for the Yugo version greatly enhances this"


excuse me, but thats a lie :evil:


the thicker AK reciever on Yugos (1.6mm VS 1mm average AK reciever thickness) has no bearing in SEMI AUTO ussage.

reciever flex affecting accuracy is only as pertains its ussage in full auto mode........

which in any instance,....at 400 yards is only laughable .....even locked in a ransom rest. :evil:
 
When was the last time you tried shooting "your" AK at 400 yards there ancient_philosophy? How about 200?

I shoot mine at 200 on a regular basis, and on occasion, 300, and find that from field positions, I get similar results as I do with my AR's shot the same way.

Personally, I think both rifles are 300 yard guns, but thats me.

Heres a 200 yard target shot with a lowly SAR1 using the open sights and Wolf 154 grain SP's. The smaller group was from a rest to confirm zero, the upper group was from a cross legged sitting position and shot at a fairly steady cadence.

ece2f3d2.jpg



If you can shoot, the AK wont let you down, especially if you practice with it.
 
A_P,

You miss the entire point. I am not buying a rifle for combat. I already spent my time in the infantry. I have an AR. I want an AK just because I want an AK.

As far as you rant about long range shots, you need to distinguish between infantrymen and snipers/precision shooters. Know what the average range for sniper shots in Vietnam was? 650 yards. Snipers in Afghanistan are routinely shooting 1000 yards. Whe you are looking at a target 1000 yards away, you understand the value of a USO with Schott glass optics.

1/4 MOA is not hard to achieve. It just takes money and the right ammo. Here's my 1/4 rifle, soon to get the Leupold MkIV replaced with a USO ST10

40x_AICS.jpg


That's me in the middle at a tactical shoot last April in Ryeberg Montana

P4210014.JPG


What a target look like at 1015 yards - cheap scopes don't cut it. The rifle in the foreground should look familiar.

P4210022composite.jpg


No disrepect intended, but I am curious about your tactical shooting experience.
 
Yes, AK-101 is exatly the thing. I have no use for folding stocks, which are fine if you need the space in your IFV, but useless otherwise. There are some good folders like those on the FAL Para or The Galil, but most, in my experieve are pretty flimsy and not conducive to good shooting (poor check weld, for example). Folders are a geegaw for people who want to be tactikool.
Click to expand...
Actually, the AK100 series have a very good folder. Its basically a standard stock that folds, making for the best of all worlds. I wouldnt go as far as call a good folder a "geegaw", they do have a use at times, and the right ones are by no means a hinderance to good shooting. Now a crappy one is a whole other story.

Check out Krebs if your looking for a nice AK. His Saiga conversions are second to none.

This is one of his 14" barreled AK103K''s wearing an Ultimak/Aimpoint.

ec4ebf48.jpg




http://www.krebscustom.com/
 
Actually, the folder shown is fine. I mean those crappy wire side and under folders one see's on AKs that so many people think are cool.

The rifle you show is near exactly what I want, except for the 223 caliber (due to large amounts of ammo on hand). I'm thinking about trying my Burris FastFire on the ultimake. It looks like the perfect co-incident red dot.
 
ancient_philosophy, you're confusing your opinion with fact.

I'd suggest you shut it, stop badgering the guy who wants what he wants for the reasons he wants them and stop woofing about Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan as if you've been there yourself. It's quite apparent that you haven't or you'd know you that what you were writing would make for perfect toilet-paper, were it to be printed-out.

Go back to arfcom or glocktalk, kid - they like your type there.

To everyone else, I know this wasn't very High Road of me - my apologies.

Gun Tech, I'm also pondering a similar situation - an AK in .223
 
:D nice accuracy intl. stock there guntech.......ive got one thats a folder on my rem 700;)


quote::"When was the last time you tried shooting "your" AK at 400 yards"


Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, thats what my Rem700 or Ar15, or Armalite .50BMG is for.........not my AK47. :evil:

"dont bring golf balls to a basketball game".....:scrutiny:


its ODD everyone here is talking about "so and so is shooting at 1000YDS in Afghanistan". :scrutiny:


Ummmmm, yer not in Afghanistan, nor is anyone here.

most people on gun boards talk like society is going to collapse tomorrow, and youll be shooting the old lady down the street at 300 yards from your rooftop in order to protect your collection of Cambells soup supply from being raided.
 
Yikes. I'm staying out of that p*ssing match.

Anyway, I have an Arsenal SA M-7S. That's a milled receiver Bulgarian semiauto in 7.62x39. It has a Kobra reflex (1x) sight on it. I can easily get 3 MOA off-hand with cheap Wolf ammo. I've also printed some nice 5-shot 1.5" groups at 100 yards off sand bags using PMC brass-cased factory ammo. I routinely use it at the 200 and 300 yard lines on torso targets, and I don't miss them if I do my part. I'm sure that with handloading, I could probably get it to shoot 1.5 MOA consistently, and perhaps even 1 MOA, but I don't feel the need for that kind of precision from my AK.
 
Here's one on Kreb's page that you might be interested in.

AK101K.jpg


KCI AK-101K CARBINE 5.56x45
 
Will over at RedStick Firearms also knows his way around an AK. He also does Saiga conversions, and is all around good people.

Atlantic Firearms sells some of his work.
 
AP - unfortunately this is wrong:

the thicker AK reciever on Yugos (1.6mm VS 1mm average AK reciever thickness) has no bearing in SEMI AUTO ussage.

reciever flex affecting accuracy is only as pertains its ussage in full auto mode........
Click to expand...

I've yet to hear of 1mm receivers though they are probably out there. I hear more about 1.2s and 1.4s

In addition, I have a Saiga 308 and receiver flex IS AN ISSUE. Why? Because I use the side mounted scope which is mounted on the receiver. Throws zero right out the window pretty quickly...and it's semi auto. *shrug*:(
 
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