Recommendation for a New Shooter

[redneck2]

If CZ had a CM chambering, that would be an option. Mine have been awesome. Doesn’t exist unfortunately.

 

[js8588]

If CZ had a CM chambering, that would be an option. Mine have been awesome. Doesn’t exist unfortunately.

Yet.

 

[Skylerbone]

Why not a CZ 455 in .17? Won’t have the frustration of needing to read wind under fair conditions, no recoil to fight, and can challenge shooters to 200 yds where a lot of traditional ranges run out of distance. All of that in a classy, switch barrel design with a pretty fair out of the box experience (trigger/accuracy/irons).

I learned on rimfire as did most people I know, same thing I recommend for new shooters and by postings so far, I’m not alone on this. I also prefer to have multiples of the same caliber. As to which centerfire round, I agree 6.5 Creedmoor gets all the love lately.

For scopes, and this will be budget dependent, if a Nightforce is within range then just will him to buy it. If not, maybe a Sightron SII or S-TAC. I used to say Leupold for basic shooting but I’m hesitant at this time due to their consolidated line-up. With young and steady nerves a good 4-16x can really add precision once learned or used like the trusty 4x to keep it simple.

 

[Gridley]

philosophically, always start by identifying the application, then pick a cartridge for it, then pick a rifle for it.

This is my recommendation as well. I'm also a fan of having new people pick up and take a firing position with every firearm that crosses their path (even if they can't shoot it). That way they see what "fits" them. Everyone's body is a little different from everyone else's.

My first rifle was a Marlin 30/30. I bought it because when I picked it up I felt a deep reluctance to put it down. Never regretted the purchase.

 

[Speedo66]

Rather than going with the cartridge du jour, which changes as often as you change your underwear, I'd pick a classic cartridge that will be around for some time that also exhibits good accuracy, low recoil, and good hunting ability.

Same for the action. While AR types are the rifle du jour, a classic bolt gun will always be in style, and more importantly, probably be legal long after other types may have disappeared.

My choice would be a .243 in something like an accurate Savage bolt action with their good trigger.

Initial training should, of course, start with a .22.

 

[Legionnaire]

If I provide the firearms for a training session, they will definitely be chambered in a classic ... or an Ackley version of a classic.

But say a young man really took a liking to my .260 Remington. Would you recommend he buy one, or one of the new 6.5 Creedmoors? They fill the same niche, and one is gaining in popularity and support and the other is waning. Same question if he really liked one of my .243s; should he purchase a .243, or should I steer him toward a 6 Creedmoor? The latter question is a bit more difficult, of course, because the 6 CM, while growing in popularity, hasn't reached the widespread acceptance that the 6.5 has ... and the .243 is less likely to be fully displaced than the .260.

 

[illinoisburt]

Scenario: You're a late-middle-aged guy like me, who has multiple rifles in most of the classic cartridges: .223 Remington, .243 Winchester, 7mm-08, .270 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, 7mm Remington Magnum, etc. (... this is not intended as an all-inclusive list). You enjoy them all.

A young man in your social circles, say the son of a friend, has expressed interest in shooting. He is late 20's, well educated, well employed, completely out of debt (save for a pending mortgage) so is able to spend some money. He is a bit of a nerd (i.e., likes to ask questions and understand what he is doing) and has shown some interest in reloading, but at this point, his shooting experience is limited to a couple of very satisfying range outings. He is definitely NOT a "tacticool" wannabe; he is intrigued by "long range" accuracy, though hasn't shot past 300, and while hunting is not a priority, it isn't something he is prepared to rule out, either. (Think, maybe, ideal future son-in-law?)

So here's the question: Given the development of a raft of new, efficient, light-recoiling cartridges (6.5mm and 6mm Creedmoor, 224 Valkyrie, etc.) that are already demonstrating their prowess on targets and game, and the introduction of comparatively inexpensive but high quality (quality defined as accurate and durable) rifles ranging from the Ruger American (low end) to the Bergara B14 HMR (high end), what rifle/cartridge combinations might you recommend to this interested young man?

See if you can get beyond what you like personally (hard for me to do, which is why I'm asking the question). If you want to argue for a classic rifle/cartridge combination, do so but please give your reasons. Likewise if you favor more recently introduced options. This is a real question for me. I like my classic cartridges and related wildcats. But if I were starting out today, knowing all I know now, would I go with a classic or adopt the new? I'm not sure. Help me figure it out!

Given the limited information, I honestly would not recommend buying anything yet. Instead find a few more folks with varying collections at a club or rental facility and let him try out various styles of shooting to see what he likes most. Some people end up plinkers, others on a bench, or laying out prone. It has a great deal of importance to the type of rifle and, later, the caliber which may best suit his needs. It will also provide a realistic gauge of how serious the hobby might be down the road.

 

[M118LR]

Okay, about the platform (rifle). While both AR's and Turn Bolts can be made extremely accurate at moderate cost, no matter where you travel Bolt Action Rifles don't rub folks the wrong way. Most bolt action rifles can be easily equipped with a scope, (although nowadays iron sights are not the norm they once where.) and unless the Young man is quite skilled, Optical glass at the 1K line is today's normal. The most practical bolt rifle action is the push-feed Remington action.

About the cartridge/chamber: the .223 Remington/ 5.56 NATO is a center-fire .22 Cal, so recoil and ammo costs are at a minimum. Brass can be had every where, components are endless, Military Surplus rounds don't appear to be in jeopardy of becoming antiquated, but 600 yards is probably the realistic long range limit on this rounds abilities.

Many 1000 yard Military Rifle Ranges (perhaps some civilian ranges as well) limit which caliber rifles are allowed on the range. The .308 Winchester/ 7.62 NATO is allowed on every 1000 yard F-Class and Military Rifle Range that I have ever visited. Like the .223 Remington/ 5.56 NATO, components are endless, affordable, and Military Surplus rounds don't appear in jeopardy of becoming antiquated. The 168 Match Ammunition is limited to 800 Meters, yet the 175 Match Ammunition has become the 912 Meter Standard bearer.

A 1:11.25 twist rate for 168-175 projectiles at .308 Winchester projectiles is optimum. But for pure hunting purposes, a controlled round feed US 30 Caliber/ 30-06 with a 1:10 twist rate for projectiles 180-220 would be more utilitarian. JMHO.

 

[Bfh_auto]

If I provide the firearms for a training session, they will definitely be chambered in a classic ... or an Ackley version of a classic.

But say a young man really took a liking to my .260 Remington. Would you recommend he buy one, or one of the new 6.5 Creedmoors? They fill the same niche, and one is gaining in popularity and support and the other is waning. Same question if he really liked one of my .243s; should he purchase a .243, or should I steer him toward a 6 Creedmoor? The latter question is a bit more difficult, of course, because the 6 CM, while growing in popularity, hasn't reached the widespread acceptance that the 6.5 has ... and the .243 is less likely to be fully displaced than the .260.

I would recommend the Cm over the 260 for a new shooter and explain why. If they still want a 260, they will learn to reload.
Edging out the 243 is unlikely.
To the OP.
It's like buying a car he needs to research and test drive.
If he wants to target shoot and maybe deer hunt, 243 or 6.5Cm are hard to beat. If he only wants to target shoot and you live where 10mph is considered windy, a good 17 HMR or 17 WSM is cheap, accurate, low recoil, and has low muzzle blast. He can work on fundamentals and choose the ideal center-fire for him.

 

[Nature Boy]

If the young man in question has a desire to learn the intricacies of precision shooting I would start with the .308

You can lean an awful lot about you, your rifle and your ammo long bedore you burn out a barrel.

Plus, the amount of information out there on that cartridge is endless. Hours and ours of research enjoyment for the semi-nerdy types

 

[Varminterror]

@nature Boy’s advice on the 308win for the reason he offers isn’t bad advice at all - something to consider. I’d throw the .223rem in the same bucket for the same reason. It lasts forever, and it will make everything else seem easy when you move on.

But I’m conflicted on where I stand on this philosophy - I know there is merit to it, and I have given the same advice many times over the years, but I THINK I’ve moved away from it of late. So this below is how I argue with myself on this topic:

As a shooter, I do agree with a paradigm where your first barrel/rifle is like training wheels, so you want it to last long enough to learn. With a 6 creed or 243win, a guy will likely burn out the barrel before they become really proficient at 600+ yards.

I do wholly support owning a practice 22LR for this reason.

As an instructor, I can’t quite decide on which side of that particular fence I fall - I’m prone to THINK though I’m not on that side:

The bad news about the .308win is the fact it’s not really training wheels - training wheels are supposed to be easier, while the 308 is more difficult than some other cartridges. It recoils more and has more drop and drift at range. The only advantages to starting with a .308 or .223 are economic.

Using the .308win for learning long range is a lot like learning to shoot handguns with a DAO revolver - the manner of thinking is, “it’s harder to master, so once you do, everything else is easy.”

But that doesn’t seem to match with how people actually learn. We learn to crawl, learn to walk, to run, then to roller skate. Starting with a .308win (or DAO revolver) is kinda like starting with running and skipping crawling and walking. We learn to count, then learn addition, then subtraction, then multiplication, then division, then fractions, then algebra, then calculus... We don’t start off with algebra before we can count. Successful training methodologies are built upon progressive skill development.

As an example, I started as a kid on a .44mag revolver, developed a terrible flinch, then finally bought a .22LR and worked out my demons. I should have started on something lesser than a .44mag...

For rifle shooting, the progressive development can be developed by starting at shorter range, then working outward. In that path, .308win almost makes as much or more sense than anything - less the level of recoil. Unfortunately, recoil management and related flinch development is the most common problem for all new shooters, so it’s hard to ignore.

On the “pro side,” I remind myself: Starting with a .223rem or 308win means that first barrel lasts a LONG time, so you’ll never feel like you are wasting barrel life to try something new (new ammo, new technique, new position, etc), or to practice at shorter ranges. I never shoot my 6 creeds without a purpose - kinda like having a cowhorse and never riding it for pleasure, it feels kinda wrong to have a rifle which I don’t let myself shoot for fun.

One other downside to consider, of course, is what ELSE we buy for our first rifle. If the young man takes up reloading and gets 500rnds deep into brass, he has a lot more reinvestment to make if he changes cartridges on the second barrel.

Both ways can and do work, but I do THINK I’m giving up on advising folks to start with DAO’s and 308wins.

 

[taliv]

^^^ yep

 

[whatnickname]

.270 Winchester

Moderate recoil.

Wide range of rifles available and many good used rifles that can be purchased at a reasonable price.

Capable of taking any game on the North American Continent. Although there are better choices for elk and the large bears.

Flat shooting.

Factory ammo available just about everywhere imaginable.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I vote for talking to him.
If ARs are an option why not put one together with him? If he’s as nerdy as you say he’ll love learning how the gun works.

Lowers are cheap and you can start with 223/556 so he learns good technique. Then help him put together a 6.5 Grendel. That would get him setup for some decent range shooting fairly inexpensively to see if he likes long range.

 

[M118LR]

@nature Boy’s advice on the 308win for the reason he offers isn’t bad advice at all - something to consider. I’d throw the .223rem in the same bucket for the same reason. It lasts forever, and it will make everything else seem easy when you move on.

But I’m conflicted on where I stand on this philosophy - I know there is merit to it, and I have given the same advice many times over the years, but I THINK I’ve moved away from it of late. So this below is how I argue with myself on this topic:

As a shooter, I do agree with a paradigm where your first barrel/rifle is like training wheels, so you want it to last long enough to learn. With a 6 creed or 243win, a guy will likely burn out the barrel before they become really proficient at 600+ yards.

I do wholly support owning a practice 22LR for this reason.

As an instructor, I can’t quite decide on which side of that particular fence I fall - I’m prone to THINK though I’m not on that side:

The bad news about the .308win is the fact it’s not really training wheels - training wheels are supposed to be easier, while the 308 is more difficult than some other cartridges. It recoils more and has more drop and drift at range. The only advantages to starting with a .308 or .223 are economic.

Using the .308win for learning long range is a lot like learning to shoot handguns with a DAO revolver - the manner of thinking is, “it’s harder to master, so once you do, everything else is easy.”

But that doesn’t seem to match with how people actually learn. We learn to crawl, learn to walk, to run, then to roller skate. Starting with a .308win (or DAO revolver) is kinda like starting with running and skipping crawling and walking. We learn to count, then learn addition, then subtraction, then multiplication, then division, then fractions, then algebra, then calculus... We don’t start off with algebra before we can count. Successful training methodologies are built upon progressive skill development.

As an example, I started as a kid on a .44mag revolver, developed a terrible flinch, then finally bought a .22LR and worked out my demons. I should have started on something lesser than a .44mag...

For rifle shooting, the progressive development can be developed by starting at shorter range, then working outward. In that path, .308win almost makes as much or more sense than anything - less the level of recoil. Unfortunately, recoil management and related flinch development is the most common problem for all new shooters, so it’s hard to ignore.

On the “pro side,” I remind myself: Starting with a .223rem or 308win means that first barrel lasts a LONG time, so you’ll never feel like you are wasting barrel life to try something new (new ammo, new technique, new position, etc), or to practice at shorter ranges. I never shoot my 6 creeds without a purpose - kinda like having a cowhorse and never riding it for pleasure, it feels kinda wrong to have a rifle which I don’t let myself shoot for fun.

One other downside to consider, of course, is what ELSE we buy for our first rifle. If the young man takes up reloading and gets 500rnds deep into brass, he has a lot more reinvestment to make if he changes cartridges on the second barrel.

Both ways can and do work, but I do THINK I’m giving up on advising folks to start with DAO’s and 308wins.

You have said allot, and perhaps even said allot that you have experienced? Yet, did your shoulder arms experience start with an air-rifle, move to a .22LR, work it's way up to a .22 Centerfire until you could perform similar feats with a .30 Caliber/ 7.62 Centerfire Rifle on your shoulder? Extreme Long Range may surpass .308 Win/ 7.62 X 51 MM profiles? But where are all these firearms/calibers stepping stones on the way to EXPERIENCE!