Recommended .380 bullet for defence?
- Thread starter steve454
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fireman 9731
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I shot the cat in the back of the head from about 6 feet away. I think the pointy FTX bullet was easily deflected by the skull, traveled around the outside of the skull, then caught the eye on the way out the front.
I agree with everyone that this one particular case doesn't mean much, but the fact is, it happened, and stranger things will still happen again.
I finished it off cleanly with a 22. Does that mean that a 22 is better than a 380? I don't think so.
I just have a little less faith in the FTX bullet now.
Mav,
You do the best you can with what you've got.
You try for a decent bullet & you try to hit your threat.
My primary points were marginal caliber, no magic .380 bullet, no FMJ, over concern with inches of penetration, extreme uncertainty & variability in actual use, and can't count on "Placement" for worship as The High Alter Of Absolute Success.
Those are all based on years of personal exposure to the aftermaths of shootings on the job, are all my own opinions, and others are free to form their own.
The "Placement" mantra I see way too often simply isn't realistic.
The head as a unit is not all that easy to hit when everybody's moving, even then a hit to the lower half or a grazing strike may not instantly stop aggression, and the section that will is relatively small.
Heard of WWII Finnish sniper Simo Hayha?
Shot in face by a Soviet rifleman in 1940, lost a good section of his left cheek.
Survived.
Remember Moshe Dayan?
His eye patch was the result of a sniper bullet through the binoculars he was using one day in 1941.
Obviously survived.
The actual triangle that IS a guaranteed instant shutdown is pretty much at the top of the nose between the eyes, and relatively small.
Torso-wise, a CNS/spinal strike can stop the action right now, but again that's a tall & very narrow target.
I see way too much emphasis given to "Placement", and far too many people putting far too much misguided faith in it.
"Don't matter what I shoot, placement'll save me!"
BS.
You can't count on YOU being able to pull it off, you can't count on PLACEMENT being able to pull it off.
FMJ penetration, with the least tissue disruption of any bullet type, is another false god to worship.
In an already marginal caliber, using the least effective bullet in terms of tissue disruption that you possibly can strikes me as counterproductive, to say the very least.
Placement & FMJ penetration are two very commonly misunderstood & misguided theories that way too many people base too much confidence on.
Having said all that, not interested in arguing or defending, I've got my experiences, others have their sources to use in selection & use with a .380.
Denis
You do the best you can with what you've got.
You try for a decent bullet & you try to hit your threat.
My primary points were marginal caliber, no magic .380 bullet, no FMJ, over concern with inches of penetration, extreme uncertainty & variability in actual use, and can't count on "Placement" for worship as The High Alter Of Absolute Success.
Those are all based on years of personal exposure to the aftermaths of shootings on the job, are all my own opinions, and others are free to form their own.
The "Placement" mantra I see way too often simply isn't realistic.
The head as a unit is not all that easy to hit when everybody's moving, even then a hit to the lower half or a grazing strike may not instantly stop aggression, and the section that will is relatively small.
Heard of WWII Finnish sniper Simo Hayha?
Shot in face by a Soviet rifleman in 1940, lost a good section of his left cheek.
Survived.
Remember Moshe Dayan?
His eye patch was the result of a sniper bullet through the binoculars he was using one day in 1941.
Obviously survived.
The actual triangle that IS a guaranteed instant shutdown is pretty much at the top of the nose between the eyes, and relatively small.
Torso-wise, a CNS/spinal strike can stop the action right now, but again that's a tall & very narrow target.
I see way too much emphasis given to "Placement", and far too many people putting far too much misguided faith in it.
"Don't matter what I shoot, placement'll save me!"
BS.
You can't count on YOU being able to pull it off, you can't count on PLACEMENT being able to pull it off.
FMJ penetration, with the least tissue disruption of any bullet type, is another false god to worship.
In an already marginal caliber, using the least effective bullet in terms of tissue disruption that you possibly can strikes me as counterproductive, to say the very least.
Placement & FMJ penetration are two very commonly misunderstood & misguided theories that way too many people base too much confidence on.
Having said all that, not interested in arguing or defending, I've got my experiences, others have their sources to use in selection & use with a .380.
Denis
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Placement & FMJ penetration are two very commonly misunderstood & misguided theories that way too many people base too much confidence on.
Having said all that, not interested in arguing or defending, I've got my experiences, others have their sources to use in selection & use with a .380.
Denis
Denis
Still the two best things to have once it comes down to firing the gun you have in defense.
I did round down a little bit, the actual average was 8.35" although he verbally characterized the results thus: "We got basically 8 inches of penetration."
The Critical Defense only did slightly better through denim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAyUW7s4EJk&index=23&list=PLgNSGOEQko_MjOCGyqlMTiM2njdQQRbdg
Also, I think the average in this test isn't a good indicator of the bullet performance because one bullet failed to expand, traveling 17 inches. If you don't count that round, Critical Defense averaged 11.41 of penetration.
10.13"
11..63"
11.88"
12.00"
Again, when you discount the bullet that failed to expand at all, only 1 bullet out of 4 even made it to 12.00"
Even TNOUTDOORS9's single shot test only penetrated to 11.25"
Also, the TNOUTDOOR9 and Lucky Gunner tests were done with longer-barreled guns than the OP possesses. The OP stated that he has a 380 semi-auto similar to the Taurus TCP.
I think .380 ACP bullet performance is very sensitive to changes in velocity, it seems to be a cartridge that is, by its nature, just on the cusp of failure. The bullets either go too slow and fail to expand, zooming past 18" or they open up and stop short of 12" And I think that there are some cartridges that don't perform well when shot out of 3.5"+ barrels while others do, and some cartridges that don't do well when shot out of 3" barrels.
I think with the .380 ACP it is super important to find test of the cartridges out of a barrel length identical to your own carry gun.
wild cat mccane
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Thanks kokapelli, I think you are right. He tested using wet packs.
I think it isn't terrible to consider these tests too. I recall Gold Dot did better than Critical Defense by a good bit.
I think it isn't terrible to consider these tests too. I recall Gold Dot did better than Critical Defense by a good bit.
Yes wetpack sounds right. The problem is there is no way to calibrate wet packs plus paper does not come even close to simulating human tissue.
I did some wetpack testing twenty years ago and had different results from every pack I used, so I decided that wet packs were useless in predicting performance in tissue.
Mav,
You do the best you can with what you've got.
You try for a decent bullet & you try to hit your threat.
My primary points were marginal caliber, no magic .380 bullet, no FMJ, over concern with inches of penetration, extreme uncertainty & variability in actual use, and can't count on "Placement" for worship as The High Alter Of Absolute Success.
Those are all based on years of personal exposure to the aftermaths of shootings on the job, are all my own opinions, and others are free to form their own.
The "Placement" mantra I see way too often simply isn't realistic.
The head as a unit is not all that easy to hit when everybody's moving, even then a hit to the lower half or a grazing strike may not instantly stop aggression, and the section that will is relatively small.
Heard of WWII Finnish sniper Simo Hayha?
Shot in face by a Soviet rifleman in 1940, lost a good section of his left cheek.
Survived.
Remember Moshe Dayan?
His eye patch was the result of a sniper bullet through the binoculars he was using one day in 1941.
Obviously survived.
The actual triangle that IS a guaranteed instant shutdown is pretty much at the top of the nose between the eyes, and relatively small.
Torso-wise, a CNS/spinal strike can stop the action right now, but again that's a tall & very narrow target.
I see way too much emphasis given to "Placement", and far too many people putting far too much misguided faith in it.
"Don't matter what I shoot, placement'll save me!"
BS.
You can't count on YOU being able to pull it off, you can't count on PLACEMENT being able to pull it off.
FMJ penetration, with the least tissue disruption of any bullet type, is another false god to worship.
In an already marginal caliber, using the least effective bullet in terms of tissue disruption that you possibly can strikes me as counterproductive, to say the very least.
Placement & FMJ penetration are two very commonly misunderstood & misguided theories that way too many people base too much confidence on.
Having said all that, not interested in arguing or defending, I've got my experiences, others have their sources to use in selection & use with a .380.
Denis
Good points. Placement is king, it is the only thing that will reliably stop someone (shut down CNS or cause them to bleed out/lack of O2 to brain...which can take awhile). However, most people far over-estimate their ability to get good placement under life or death stress w/o the realistic training and experience to back it up. They think because they can shoot tiny groups at paper targets that the high miss rates in gunfights by police officers won't apply to them because they are better "trained."
Police certainly need more funds spent on training (and the right training), but the average civilian doesn't even have access at all to the most realistic forms of training (FOF-Simunition etc.) so they are way over-estimating their abilities.
Thanks everyone! I learned so much!
I ended up buying the Federal Premium Hydra-Shok® 90-grain JHP since that was the only bullet that Academy had that was on the list of top recommended bullets.
I was very interested in the Lehigh Defense Extreme but it looks like that and any other bullets would have to be ordered by mail and that gets expensive.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...uest-sequel-lehigh-defense-xtreme-penetrator/
I ended up buying the Federal Premium Hydra-Shok® 90-grain JHP since that was the only bullet that Academy had that was on the list of top recommended bullets.
I was very interested in the Lehigh Defense Extreme but it looks like that and any other bullets would have to be ordered by mail and that gets expensive.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...uest-sequel-lehigh-defense-xtreme-penetrator/
Good choice if it feeds well in your pistol.
JB357MAG
Member
After rewatching the Shoot The Bull tests
I have changed my mind and ordered a
box of Fiochi extrema xtp rounds and will
carry in my TCP 738.
Jimmy
I have changed my mind and ordered a
box of Fiochi extrema xtp rounds and will
carry in my TCP 738.
Jimmy
dwight.hopkins.96
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- Jan 16, 2016
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- 7
For every "test" that says .380 doesn't penetrate enough or expand enough I'll show you two that do. They're all opinions, some based on more facts than others, but opinions none-the-less. There are .380 rounds that generate almost as much energy as standard 9mm but the fact that most .380's have extremely short barrels lessens that effect to a certain extent. But technology is brining the .380 into the realm of reality for carry purposes if you place your shots well and don't try to take down someone with several layers of clothing.
Well, that stipulation about layers of clothing...not something you get to select about your attacker(s)...just as an example for why people are down on .380 for defense
dwight.hopkins.96
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- Jan 16, 2016
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Hence, not a good round for a novice who hasn't be exposed to such things as shot placement and alternative actions. Also a good reason I don't like .380. If I have to carry a subcompact auto I carry a 9mm Sig P938. It's all about training with what you intend to carry and carry what you train with. Learn the guns, learn their limitations and adjust your carry or your planning accordingly.
I don't think many people are counting on making headshots because they realize their under size carry gun won't penetrate enough through the heavy clothing. I also don't think being something above novice as a private citizen who chooses to carry gun counts for that much when it comes to this.
Zendude
Member
Anything is possible, but at self defense distance out in public, say inside 10 yards, I think a 380 will have enough power to make a hole in a bad guy. Home and property defense might entail longer distance or shooting through a wall though.
grampajack
AR Junkie
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- Mar 31, 2016
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The more I learn about ballistics and the more I read after action reports, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the 12'' consensus isn't enough minimum penetration. Long story short, I'm more and more convinced that the people who carry FMJ in their .380s are more right than wrong. If I were to start carrying a .380, then I would likely use FMJ. I'm also very intrigued by Lehigh Defense's Xtreme Penetrator .380 bullets. The price isn't bad for premium self defense ammo, and it's hard to argue with the results.
Pipe Smoker
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Good point!
The Army used to test with animal carcasses. Has anyone actually tested the .380 on a pig? Not concerned with unrealistic head shots at a moving target. As for penetration, center mass until perp drops or empty mag- reload if necessary.
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tactikel
Member
I shot .380 for years, if the Ruger ARX pans out it will be a real game changer. The proprietary shape of the bullet causes hydrostatic shock in soft tissue, then tumbles to 14-16". A miss hitting a solid object results in fragmentation. Perfect for SD for a .380.
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