Red dot or reflex sight for CCW?

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Warren

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In the newest issue (April/May 2007) of Handguns Magazine there is an article by Dave Spaulding (The Combative Pistol Sight on pg 56) which contrasts and compares the various types of pistol sights from a defensive use standpoint.

One of the sights is JP Enterprises (jprifles.com) version of The Doctor called the J Point.

It is lighter and less expensive than the Doctor but is not as precise.

The question I have is it something you would use for a combat pistol? Either nightstand, open carry or CCW?

Pros? Cons?
 
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I'll stick with the CT laser grips myself for CCW, even though I practice without it quite a bit as well.

"See the red dot? That's where the bullet is going..." And that way I can shoot from most any position.

And yes, I change the batteries at least twice a year, usually the same day as clocks change forward/backwards as a minimum.
 
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For CCW I think the ONLY choice in sights is a good set of nite sights! Brand name of your choice.

I agree. I get by most of the time with standard sights (that's the only thing we had once upon a time) but night sights are a good idea. I think it's a bad idea to trust your life to laser beams, electronics, and possibly dead batteries. All these modern marvels have their place but a day to day carry gun is not one of them.
 
Actually, I think any advantage in a CCW situation is a good thing, whether it is night sights, lasers, red dots or whatever comes along next. For that reason, I don't think a "biometric pistol" would be a good idea, since it isn't an advantage.

The key though to any technology though, is to be able to survive without it. So practicing with and without is always important. Heck, I even spend time thinking about how to kick effectively or use distraction, from my "youth" with karate and with magic.

Technology won't save your beans, but it sure can make it easier to keep 'em.
 
If you read the entire article, you also know that while the J-Point sight was used in combat, the user of that sight broke it when he fell onto his pistol with the sight mounted. Such a fall would have done nothing to Trijicon or Meprolight night sights apart from superficial nicks/scratches, which would not impair aiming in the slightest. Granted, the J-Point has a "backup rear sight notch" molded into its body for emergency use, but how do you expect to train in their use as long as the lens, frame and dot diode are still intact and working?

+1 to profshadow - accessories, gadgets and gizmos are fine, as long as they don't become a crutch; always train so you can operate your weapon in "degraded mode," when your add-ons are broken, out of alignment, or when batteries die.
 
I believe most incidents involving Citizens happens very quickly, and at pretty short range. While optics might be good for an 'operator' who is on the offensive, for defensive use, I prefer iron sights, or point shooting. I feel that optics just delay getting your concealed handgun into play. Add ons also make the pistol or revolver more difficult to holster and conceal.
 
The problem with red dot/holo sights is that in the dark, you've got absolutely no visual indicator of where the gun is pointed, unless you're pretty well on target. With a long gun or something else with more index points, that's fine. I can shoulder my rifle with a red dot on it in pitch darknsess, and there's the dot. A pistol isn't so easy. With night sights, you've got two visual index points to locate the gun and where it's pointed, in any light conditions.
 
Red dot technology is great but I'm not sure I'd want to depend on it in a crisis when there are other, more solid methods of targetting. You have a battery powered device that can konk out on you at the least opportune moment, and they generally block the iron sights on handguns so you have no backup. Also, even the smallest units are rather large for CCW. I like them on long guns, but I think a tritium or fiber optic/tritium hybrid is a better choice on handguns. This gives you visible sights in low light without depending on a battery. Also, some red dot sights tend to wash out in bright light. Something that iron sights don't do. Just my $0.02.
 
The question I have is it something you would use for a combat pistol? Either nightstand, open carry or CCW?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not.

Pros? Cons?
Click to expand...

Cons:

-Can (will) break
-Takes batteries
-Do any good holster makers sell CCW holsters for guns set up like this?
-Cannot use irons as backup
-Will likely not be shooting at a distance where this type of sight would be any help
-May snag on things while using very close range handgun techniques

Pros:

-Will maybe help you if you're shooting at a long distance at a BG after you pulled it snag-free out of your custom holster and made sure it had fresh batteries that morning, provided the electronics were working in the first place.
 
One very experienced guy who liked the Doctor sight a lot in his 'Inside the Crucible' series, or perhaps it was his 'Tactical Carbine' video, is Kelly McCann. He said it really helped as his eyesight has degraded a bit with age and it provides commonality with his carbine red dot sight.
 
I'd consider putting one on my gun. It will defiantly help increase how quickly you can get the gun aligned on the target. For most people though it won't do much to increase accuracy considering it's trigger control not aiming people have problems with.
 
I think not.

My criteria for combat handgun sights, in order:


1) On target at desired range.
2) Absolutely solid, unmoveable and indestructible with more force applied than is reasonable. (In other words, it should be more than drop proof. It should be FLING to concrete proof. It SHOULD take more than one mighty blow with a hammer and drift to move it.)
3) Must have some secondary provision for low/no light shooting. This provision may fail under extreme duress, but its failure must NOT take the primary sight down with it.
4) Snag free, unobtrusive.

While such a sight would meet 1 and 3 (if we ignore the dependency caveat), but I really, massively doubt it would live through 2, and 4 is pretty dubious.
 
Words to live by...

...KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID...

maybe a Gabriel Cash wannabee? Next on the list will be the exploding bazooka boots...
 
I suggest you might want to consider not letting a gun journalist influence your choices.

At the distances the armed citizen generally finds himself using a gun for self defense those sights offer no benefit. But you are welcome to use whatever gadgets that make you feel better.

I don't even use night sights. All my carry guns have Heinies installed with a gold bead inserted onto the face of the front sight. We've found that in darkness, true darkness, night sites actually slow the inexperienced shooter. Inexperienced defined as - the shooter that does not have many, many rounds shot in darkness using the night sight system. The time differences generally amount in a half to a full second delay in getting the shot off from those same shooters when using non-luminous fixed sights.

The consensus was it draws the attention to the gun, and the mind wants to line those sights up. Also of interest, is that at distances under 7 yards, the hits on a target on a completely darkened indoor range were indistinguishable between theshots luminous and non-luminous sighted guns. At longer distances, the were more accurate with the use of night sights.
 
For CCW I think any optic is nuts. They make the gun harder to conceal and will likely break. Get a laser instead because in the situations in which you are justified in shooting there are no worries about giving away your position.
 
Plain black sights! At most, a gold bead front if you think your ancient eyes need that crutch (I'm 63, so have experience with slower change of focus with ancient eyes). Long time ago I was lucky enough to get some training from a "professional NCO" with heavy conflict experience on several continents, and from day one we worked on natural body alignment (basicly how your body addresses - orients on - a threat/target as you bring the weapon into your line of sight). Given that a "flash sight picture" is only a VERIFICATION of what your body is already doing, this makes a lot of sense. At the end of the course we turned out the lights, and as long as there was enough ambient light to see there WAS a threat/target (and you better know where and why the bullet is going before you drop the hammer), we were making good center of mass hits on targets out to 25 yds. I can still do this after more than 25 yrs. Much better to trust (and develop) your natural attributes than to buy that "magic pill" that'll make everything better. Natural attributes are pretty much "Murphy" proof.
 
Much like Mike Sastre, I found that my point shooting training translated well to low/no light shooting training. Kinesthesia is used in point shooting and functions regardless of light levels. Since it excells at the self defense ranges that violent crimes occur it's a valuable skill to add to your self defense tool box.

The money spent on accessories beyond the basics is almost always better spent on quality training.
 
Red dot technology is great but I'm not sure I'd want to depend on it in a crisis when there are other, more solid methods of targetting. You have a battery powered device that can konk out on you at the least opportune moment....
Click to expand...
Other (wholly legitimate) concerns aside, didn't somebody once make a reflex sight that used a tritium source, rather than an electronic source?
 
Trjicon makes a reflex sight that uses tritium for the marker. Is very well made and I like it. Have it on a DPMS carbine. As for a red dot/reflex on a handgun carried concealed for defensive purposes.....I can see no significant advantage. Any situation that calls for me or someone like me to draw and use a weapon will be sudden, ugly and leave no time for decisions like lining the red dot up with the target. It will probably take place at ranges measured in feet and time may not even allow me to raise the weapon up high enough to even consider using sights. Any other situation will probably give me the option of exercising some Nike-Do and beating feet.
 
My thoughts run along the KISS methodology too.

It's a CCW.

I pray to God that I never have to use it, but if I do I want no gadgets, bells, whistles or video screens to distract me.

Technology is a great thing and I love playing with new and expensive gadgets, but I want my CCW to be like a hammer.

Line it up on the nail and bam.
 
I learned point shooting with the body alignment. It does work, but I only found it good for about 25 ft at most. I also, many years ago, learned to shoot without sights using the silhouette of the handgun buy why limit yourself by not using the technology available? Train to be able to deal without them, but they can be useful.

While I do use dot sights on some of my long guns, I do not find them practical on CCW handguns. I do like my night sights and laser sights on my CCW handguns. Worrying about the battery giving out is like worry about your car battery giving out. Change it when it needs it and it will be as reliable as the iron sight that could break or bend if dropped.

Why limit yourself to only one system when you can combine them and have them available? I do use Lazermax and Crimson Trace laser sights instead of the type you hang from your gun, but that is a personal choice. I find I do shoot much better with them then just the plain iron sights. I find them much better for shooting under, over or around a barrier. The one place I will be running for in a confrontation. They even seem to help when I am off balance on my way to the barrier and I need to get lead downrange.
 
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