Reflex sight on CCW pistol

[goldfacade]

Do you have a reflex sight on your CCW weapon, or have you had one on? Do you know of others who do? I have been wondering about this for a while, especially after I read a short article on this topic last week. http://www.jprifles.com/1.6.1.php

The pro's are pretty obvious (quick sight picture, minimal weight, 20-50K hour battery life) but what do you see as the cons? Awkward sight to slide fit, snag potential, another thing to print?

Besides race guns and a couple of Ruger SBH/SRH 44's I haven't seen a pistol with these installed. Seems to me that the good might outweigh the bad. I carry an M&P 40 thoughts?

Also posted to TFL

 

[renegade1alpha]

Pros- good sight picture, minimal weight
cons- Snag potential is the biggest and if you are an inexperienced shooter, a waste of money.

Personally, night sights are as high tech as I go as far as sights for a gun.

It always gets my dander up when I hear some gun salesman try to sell some fancy gimick sight or laser to put on a weapon. "Just put that there red dot on the bad guys chest, squeeze the trigger and its all over for him!" What if batteries fail? What if the sight gets misaligned? If you are an experienced shooter, then by all means put any gizmo you want on your weapon. If you are inexperienced, learn to use the sights, which are supplied with the gun free of charge from the factory. Once you have accomplished that, do whatever you feel you need to do.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm not seeing enough of an advantage to switch. I really think that in 20 years, these will be an interesting retrospective sidenote in the gun magazines.

 

[JoeSlomo]

The dot is hard to find in bright light.

The potential to get some fuzz / foreign residue on the part that projects the image exists.

Batteries can give out when you need them most.

Shock and impact may cause rapid negative effects when mounted on the slide.

I've used the Jpoint / ACOG combo now for about 4 years, and the Jpoint has held up pretty well during 2 tours overseas, however, if I decided to mount it on a handgun, I would want to maintain irons to use as a back up.

 

[rcmodel]

Most all of them require either to be turned on with a switch, or have to have the sight cover removed to turn them on.

Hardly the kind of delay I would want in getting a gun into action in a hurry with no prior notice.

Any slight increase in speed would be much more then used up fiddling with getting them turned on and into action.

Best used on Games guns.
Iron sights without switches on SD guns.

rc

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm not sure which ones you are talking about, but a very popular sight, the Trijicon RMR, uses a battery that lasts over a year of constant use. You never turn it off, and you just swap the battery once a year. No delay, and an outstanding sight, especially in low light. I've run combat courses in daylight and low-light using the RMR on a Glock 19, and it is hands down the best sight I have ever used on a handgun. The only single possible issue I had even slightly with it was finding a holster that didn't interfere with the mounting.

 

[Banfield]

I haven't used them on a pistol, but, for what it's worth, Gabe Suarez is currently experimenting with them and is apparently a pretty big fan of them. He wrote an article or two on them in his newsletters, if you're interested.

 

[smince]

Kelly McCann/Jim Grover has been using one on his Glock 19 for years:

I switched to the Doctor Optic sight years ago for two reasons: sight picture commonality with my carbine holographic sight and failing vision-yes, it's true-the eyes DO go first.

 

[colorado_handgunner]

I prefer good old irons. You know they will be there when you need them. Trijicons on my carry gun.

It's Worth noting: A product description on the manufacturers sight does not count as an article. It's called marketing.

 

[smince]

...for what it's worth, Gabe Suarez is currently experimenting with them...

Excerpt from the SI site:

If I have given the impression that I am against optimizing a weapon platform in the past, I want to set the record straight now. I think all weapons platforms...even a rock, will do fine, but even the hairiest and stinkiest caveman put an edge on that rock and eventually tied it to a stick to form an axe. This year I will focus on optimizing the various platforms we live and work with. Specifically the Glock, the Kalashnikov, the Saiga Shotgun, and others.

One area where the pistol can benefit most is in the area of sights. Truly, for close range gunfighting inside of five yards, you do not need any sights. But for precise shots up close as might be seen with an adversary partially exposed from around cover, or for a distant shot out past 10 yards, careful sight selection may mean the difference between hitting and missing.

The greatest advancement has been seen is in the development of miniature red dot sights. If a red dot sight will benefit your rifle shooting, then it will do the same for your pistol shooting. I have studied these sights carefully and the two that I consider best are the J-Point Red Dot Sight, and the Trijicon RMR series in either electronic or tritium fiber optic.

What these sights do for you that no iron sights can do is that they allow a shooter with aging eyes to still hit small targets, and at distances that are no longer possible for him. Moreover the issue of low light is gone as is the issue of needing to close one eye to obtain a greater degree of sight refinement. These types of sights have been placed on rifles for a very long time and thanks to advancements in their design, they are now small enough to be used on CCW pistols.

I know that there will be naysayers about this concept, but please remember that the same thing was said about the use of airsoft for training, the idea of dynamic movement and our preference for the Kalashnikov system. Try it before you dismiss it as unworkable. Me, I am convinced it is the future in pistol sights.

 

[smince]

The dot is hard to find in bright light.

More excerpts (Gabe's comments in bold):

I found several issues with these sights (including the Doctor version):

1) If there is strong light coming from behind the shooter the glare off the lens can obscure the dot.

Haven't seen this with either one

2) If the shooter is in a dark area like inside a building shooting into the outside daylight the auto brightness circuit would dim the dot so it could not be seen. I don't know if this is true of all the newer sights.

Not as bad with newer sights...not an issue with the RMR I am using

3) Like any optical sight they are subject fogging if taken from a dry air conditioned environment into a hot outdoor humid environment.

The only humidity we have here is in the shower. However, David Bowie is from Ohio, a very humid place, and he advises as a non-issue. Like anything else...regional precautions can be taken such as using a no-fog lens cleaner

4) They can also be fogged by body sweat even in cold weather.

That we will see. I have not experienced this yet and it has been real cold here

5.) The two sights I own are now more than 8 years old and they are both on Ruger 10/22s where they work very well. I am not convinced at this time that any optical sight is appropriate for a normal use self defense gun given the conditions were one might actually use the sights. The things that can compromise these sights are more than I want to risk on my close range defense guns.

Then for you, I suggest you keep your iron sights and not delve further into the matter. I OTOH have found them to be a very workable and useful advancement in the pistol study.

To be fair, iron sights have several deficiencies as well and I will list them here -

1). Nearly impossible to see when shooting to a bright light
2). Can get lint and debris on them from CCW
3). Unless they are tritium you can't see them against a target of similar color, or in the dark. If they are tritium, your adversary can see them.
4). With older eyes, they are very difficult to see well

So no free lunch and no perfection with any system. Some systems however will give you more than others

And

I was trying out Gabe's Glock with a Trijicon in and around our building yesterday and the only way I could get sunlight to obscure the dot was to point it directly at the sun, if I shifted even a few degrees off I could still see the dot.

IMO, if there is a light source strong enough to obscure the dot you will not see your iron sights either.

 

[Blakenzy]

Snagging, finding a good holster that will fit it, perhaps printing, but I must admit they are quite small...

For open carry I would have no reservations, but for something that must be concealed under my everyday garments, anything that adds size or protrusions raises an eyebrow for me.

 

[bdickens]

A contraption like that would go a long way toward taking the "concealed" part out of concealed carry.

 

[smince]

A contraption like that would go a long way toward taking the "concealed" part out of concealed carry.

Snagging, finding a good holster that will fit it, perhaps printing, but I must admit they are quite small...

For open carry I would have no reservations, but for something that must be concealed under my everyday garments, anything that adds size or protrusions raises an eyebrow for me.

Currently, Dale Fricke (http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/) is working with SI on developing holster designs for CCW with RDS pistols.

Gabe has been carrying in a modified ArchAngel holster (a kydex holster similar to a Summer Special):
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/archangelappendixcarryaiwbappendixinsidethewaistband.aspx

The jury is still out on this one. More testing will be ongoing

 

[Rexster]

I plan to try some kind of red dot sight soon. With uncorrected vision, iron sights are just about useless to me lately. Good thing I practiced a lot of point shooting and various methods such as Stressfire that look over the top of the weapon, with the weapon at the bottom of the visual field, but as Gabe indicated, sometimes the ability to make a really precise shot is of value.

Other things that help a bit include a wider notch in the rear sight, and a longer sight radius. A light on one's weapon at night will allow iron sights to be seen as silhouetted over the target.

For those who criticize this type of sight, based on experience, please keep in mind that there have been ongoing improvements. It is indeed true that some in the past are rather useless in some bright light conditions, such as my older Trijicon Reflex; I own one of these, and an alternate sight system is a necessity. The RMR seems much better. My BIG favorite lately is the Aimpoint Micro T-1, though it is a bit larger. I will acquire one or the other of these soon for carbine or shotgun use, at least, but I am excited about the potential to use one on a pistol.

To be clear, I will always highly value compact fixed-sight revolvers such as my SP101s and Speed Six, which are not candidates for the type of optic being discussed. There are ways, however, to either conceal amazingly bulky pistols on one's person, or use carry systems such as the Safepacker, to have bulkier weapons near at hand.

Pistols are starting to be made to accommodate small reflex sights. FN, for example, was at SHOT showing a version of its FNP with taller iron sights, and the slide milled to accept a small reflex sight. (The taller irons co-witness when looking through the optic.) David Bowie of Bowie Tactical is milling Glock slides, and perhaps other pistols' slides by now.

These things are happening right about the time I am losing my previously 20/13 vision. I am grateful.

 

[Mr. Whimsy]

I find the resistance to technological aids mystifying and disconcerting.

Iron sights are freaking miserable for a lot of us.

This thread makes me want to set up a pistol with reflex sight, tac light and green laser and then carry it just so I can prove the naysayers wrong.

 

[mljdeckard]

Prove away. It's your money. (Not to mention your keyster.)

 

[Rexster]

Gentleman, just as good, stout scopes have proven quite reliable in the field, withstanding knocks that bend and break iron sights, these new small reflex and other red-dot sight sights are seeming to be made quite stout. The Trijicon guys at SHOT were reported to be using the new RMR mini-reflex sights like hammers, to strike things, to prove their toughness. It is important to note that some of the RMR sights are built to withstand greater impacts than others.

The US military has been using Aimpoint, EOTEC, and Trijicon optics quite hard in the various sandboxes lately. This is not theoretical stuff.

I am not saying that your typical pocket pistol or snubby is the place for a mini-reflex sight, and probably not compacts, either. But, as someone who has carried N-frames,, GP100s, and full-sized service pistols concealed, something the size of a J-Point, RMR, or Docter optic is not intimidating.

Edited to add: Another thing; these optics are meant to aid precision and longer-range shooting. Your typical "get off me" shooting of a mugger does not require sights.

 

[uspJ]

i wouldn't recommend one for ccw, but for home defence i don't see anything wrong as long as you are proficient with it.

 

[smince]

I was using my J-Point sighted G19 just his morning to practice a few Get-Off-The-X drills at the range.

I wasn't trying to find the dot, but rather just looking through the window @ 7-10 yards, drawing and moving to the 9, 11, 1 and 3 o'clock positions:

I also did some 50yd standing shots (didn't take a pic of the target) that were also on target and about 8-10" group.

 

[ArmedBear]

I use an Ultradot for match target shooting. Works great.

But I wouldn't even consider hanging it on a CC piece. A laser is a much better option. For the same money, you can have your gun set up so you can hip-shoot 2" groups at 25 yards (which I've done with a J-frame .38). If the laser fails, the standard sights are unobstructed and ready to use. It doesn't stick up from the top of the gun.

 

[daveit]

Con: After the SHTF and we are EMP'd it won't work. Haha...

 

[smince]

For the money, the RDS is a more effective sight than any laser. I've used both. Looking for a laser dot on a moving target intent on killing you is one thing. Hip shooting a stationary target at the range is something else entirely (try it in a Force-on-Force class and get back with me).

It doesn't stick up from the top of the gun.

I carry my G19 AIWB with a spare magazine between the holster and belt buckle. The RDS adds minimal bulk.

OK, I admit: I can't pocket carry it

The J-point has a rear notch so I can still use my sights (with a slightly taller front sight) if the battery dies.

 

[BamAlmighty]

no matter how reliable they claim it is, electronics can fail... if you can't shoot well with iron sights, you are doing it wrong.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I have a thought that the Docter sized sights mght fit into a Kydex type holster that shields the sight like the factory cover, thus "shutting " the sight down while holstered. If any Kydex manufacturers get this rigged up, a gun with this sight would be a great carry gun. Some smiths have inletted the Glock slide to recess the Docter sight even lower, making it not much higher than regular sights. I use a Docter on my little Beretta .22, and have a clip "Snick" type holster (anyone remember those?) that allows me to carry the gun on my belt with suppressor attached. It is not a regular CCW for me, though.

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