Red dot temptation?

[minutemen1776]

I've had ARs for several years, but I've never really gotten into red dot optics that much. I've had a couple of cheaper red dot sights that I've played with and eventually sold. I've also used others' Eotechs and Aimpoints enough to know that, in general, I like the Aimpoints a little better. Still, I've never taken the plunge on buying a "serious" AR red dot optic. I'm now tempted to do so on one of my "serious" carbines, which is an LMT/BCM hybrid I put together several months ago. I'm looking hard at an Aimpoint PRO, but I guess I'm just not yet feeling the love for it yet. I know that lots of AR shooters go with red dots almost as a matter of course, but I'm wondering how many out there are like me and are hesitant to jump into an optical sight. The benefit of a red dot is clearly the rapidity of target acquisition, and I like that. Yet, I cannot overlook the benefits of a rifle without optics, which are reduced weight, simplicity, less expense, etc. Besides that, I REALLY like to shoot over iron sights. In other words, I'm situated squarely on the fence. I'm looking for anyone's insights who might sway me to one side or the other. Thanks!

 

[Hi-Lander]

While I have/ and still use a few H1 Micros on my AK and AR's I went with 1-4x24 scopes on my last few builds. I find they are allot more useful to me. 1x for up close and personal then dial up to 4 for the distance shots. Nikon M223m Burris Tac30 and Millett DMS are all good for the money for the .223/5.56 rounds. If you think you need more look at the dual set-ups of a Variable Scope plus a offset mount for a small reflex sight. I used to think the red dot was the only way to go. Now with the 1-4's with the illuminated reticle-- they are really hard to beat.

 

[MrCleanOK]

If you're on the fence and cost is a concern, why not try to find one used? That way if you decide you don't like it, and want to sell it you won't be taking the loss you would if you had bought the sight new.

 

[minutemen1776]

Just to clarify, my real concern isn't the expense of a quality red dot. My rifle was put together from top-tier stuff, and I spared little expense getting exactly what I wanted. I'm already in this rifle for over $1,000 and I'm not adverse to putting in another $400-$500 for a quality optic. BUT, if I'm going to spend the cash, I want to know that it's money well spent. I'm really looking to know why people LOVE their red dots. What makes them a necessary AR add-on? Or are they necessary at all?

 

[ugaarguy]

I'm really looking to know why people LOVE their red dots. What makes them a necessary AR add-on? Or are they necessary at all?

I can't see the front iron sight on my M4geries without my glasses on. While the dot on my Aimpoint PRO appears larger with my glasses off, I can still it. Glasses on or off, I can rapidly mount the rifle to my shoulder, and not worry about precise cheek weld - if I can see the dot, the bullet is going where the dot is.

I went with the PRO because it has Aimpoint ruggedness & battery life, plus a good included mount, at an Eotech price.

 

[TonyAngel]

For most guys, the benefit of the red dot is speed. On target and back on target faster. If you have a good set of open sights, a red dot may or may not help you to be more accurate, but it will make you faster.

As far as I'm concerned, there is really only one choice in red dots when it really matters. I've always gone for the Aimpoints.

Unfortunately, my eyes are getting worse and I have astigmatism, so I've gone to the ACOG TA44S. It's a little 1.5X optic that is very dependable and has a nice circle dot reticle that is etched, so it's very sharp and defined.

I've never found much use for any one of the many 1-4X scopes out there. When using them on 1X or 2X, I usually found myself wishing that I was using a red dot or mini ACOG. When I dialed up to 4X, I found myself wishing that I had more.

My progression of scopes runs like this....ACOG (Aimpoint) for out to 100 yards or so, 2.5-10X for general purpose and then larger scopes for more specialized use. Just keep in mind that these are what I found most useful and I generally tend to shoot at targets that are about the size of clay pigeons or smaller.

 

[jmr40]

Consider this http://swfa.com/Vortex-SPARC-Red-Dot-Sights-C2988.aspx Priced at about $200 they are a huge step up in quality over the cheaper units and are much closer to sights costing $400.

I couldn't justiy the more expensive sights and have been disappointed in cheaper ones. This has proven to be perfect for my uses.

 

[Fishbed77]

I'm looking hard at an Aimpoint PRO, but I guess I'm just not yet feeling the love for it yet.

I recently purchased an Aimpoint PRO, am I have become thouroughly convinced that it is the best value out there for high-quality red dots. It would make an excellent choice for your first red dot.

Yet, I cannot overlook the benefits of a rifle without optics, which are reduced weight, simplicity, less expense, etc. Besides that, I REALLY like to shoot over iron sights.

That said - if you do decide red dots are not for you, a good thing about an Aimpoint is that you should have no problem selling it used. Keep in mind also that you can still use iron sights through a co-witnessed red dot.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

I use Aimpoint Micros or M4S sights specifically because of the long battery life and the die-hard reliability that I have experienced from Aimpoint. I find the red dot to be extremely fast, yet simple to use. The advantage that I get from an RDS is worth every cent of the cost of the sight. Fast target acquisition, fast follow-up shots, fast target transitions, great longer range capability, it all adds up in my book.

 

[Aiko492]

I know, running different optics is a matter of taste. I opted for the Eotech XPS 2-0 on my rifles. I prefer the 1 MOA for a bit more precise targeting a longer range. I also have the 2nd Gen Eotech Mag 3x mag with flip mount. This allows two things: use of the XPS alone and use of my BUIS through the Eotech perfectly. For me, it is the perfect setup. Does take practice though to quickly pick up your targets through the red dot type optics when you first start using them .

 

[benEzra]

I'm really looking to know why people LOVE their red dots. What makes them a necessary AR add-on? Or are they necessary at all?

(1) Go outside at twilight (or go in the garage with the lights out) and see how well you can pick up the irons in dim light. In my experience, there are light levels at which you can still see pretty well through a red dot but can't see squat through the irons. If your rifle serves as an HD carbine in addition to a range toy, a quality red dot isn't a bad idea, even if you also run a light (which is also a very good idea).

(2) Get into some nontraditional shooting positions and see how well you can pick up the iron sights when contorting to shoot in such a position. I've shot some USPSA stages very well with an Eotech that I would have had a LOT of trouble with using iron sights, simply because of the odd head position I was forced to use.

(3) If you wear glasses, see how well you pick up the irons without them. My vision sans glasses or contacts is pretty bad, but I can see well enough without correction to shoot with an an Eotech. Irons, not so much.

 

[Sky]

What Ben said.

There is another thread running about Cheap Red Dots....It is surprising how well some of the cheaper sights have been doing after years of service. So my point is you do not have to spend $400+ just to see if you like something....youtube had a TSR-25 that Nutnfancy has on an AK which cost less than $100. Vortex makes the Strikefire with a 4 moa dot ($150) and the Sparc with a 2 moa dot ($199). Both work well and if they don't Vortex will fix or replace.

You do not have to spend near that much just to see if you are going to fall in love....hahahaha there are guys who have had a $30 BSA on all kinds of weapons for years and they still are happy with them. I would have never thought they would last ten rounds much less 1000s.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608749


I like the battery life of the Aimpoint.

The only thing I would add to the discussion is the size of the dot. IMO the smaller the dot the better for longer range shooting (rifles) unless you want your target/varmint covered by the dot. 4 moa is a tad bit large for my desires but works great on fast moving larger animals like feral pigs. Would never put a 4 moa dot on a 22lr upper simply because many of the things @75 yards I would want to shoot would be mostly hidden behind the dot. Dawn or Dusk bad vision and many other reasons as stated above the Red Dots have their place. There are becoming more 1-4x30 lighted reticle scopes that if they were not so expensive $300 would give most of the red dots a run for the market share.
http://www.millettsights.com/scopes/dms/

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...JvQ&ei=BEpJTqSfBqnsxQWVg4zRDg&ved=0CDMQqxIwCg

They have 1 or 2 MOA dots plus give you the option of dialing in 4x magnification if needed.

 

[Finprof]

Cheap red dot

The standard red dot for Bullseye pistol shooting is the tube-style Ultradot at about $150.
The get banged around on the slide of a 1911 Colt 180 times during every match so living on an AR would be an easy life. Not only has none of mine failed (I have 5) I don't know anybody who has one that failed.
The standard $150 version has a 4 MOA dot. For another $50 you can adjust the dot size.

 

[P30shtr]

I just got this (link) http://mylucidgear.com/reddot.php and am quite pleased, especially for a "cheaper" red dot. The eyepiece is threaded for a 2x magnifier (which I got). When I say cheaper the only thing meant by that is price not quality, at least not with this red dot. Dont get me wrong, there is junk out there as with anything else but this is a good optic. It has four reticules to choose from, cross hair, dot, circle dot, circle cross hair which is cool. The dot is quite small as well, maybe 2 moa which I like. It has 2 brightness modes, Bright and a variable mode that uses a sensor on the top of the optic to sense the light conditions and adjust brightness accordingly. It mounts directly to a pic rail (no mounts, adapters, etc.) Auto shutoff after 3hrs I think. Made in the USA . Oh yeah and, only $250+- for the optic and 2x mag. Cough, half as much as the competition, cough.


In no way am I affiliated with Lucid, just trying to promote a good product I am happy with.

 

[Aiko492]

Where did you read the Lucid optics were made in the USA? I just did a search of their site which makes no mention and found several other postings which claim they are Chinese. Thanks

 

[wally]

I'm really looking to know why people LOVE their red dots.

Not everyone does, that is why I usually suggest trying one of the inexpensive Primary Arms red dots to see for yourself. If you do like it you can get the "quality" one if the PA goes belly up. That is what I planned to do, but my PA red dot is still doing just fine and I've enjoyed spending the savings on ammo in the meantime.

 

[minutemen1776]

Thanks for everyone's insightful comments. Wally, I am indeed looking at Primary Arms's offerings, specifically their Micro Dot. I also went back to my local shop yesterday to look at an Aimpoint PRO they had, but it had been sold already. What to do? What to do?

BTW, why are so many shooters with astigmatisms shooting without their eyeglasses? If you can't see the iron sights, how could you ID the target itself? I've had an astigmatism for my entire shooting life, but I always shoot with my eyeglasses on.

 

[benEzra]

BTW, why are so many shooters with astigmatisms shooting without their eyeglasses? If you can't see the iron sights, how could you ID the target itself? I've had an astigmatism for my entire shooting life, but I always shoot with my eyeglasses on.

I have almost no astigmatism, but I'm nearsighted, and can't see the front sight of a rifle clearly without my glasses even in good light, never mind dim light. I *can* see clearly enough to see somebody with a weapon at inside-the-home distances, or to see that they're not a family member, though. The odds of having to shoot sans glasses are certainly low, but it's nice to know that one can do so without resorting to point shooting.

 

[wally]

I've had an astigmatism for my entire shooting life, but I always shoot with my eyeglasses on

With a red dot your vision has to focus on the target which requires "far vision" whereas iron sights requires using "near vision" and a scope has a diopter correction lens built in to fix things for you!

Probably the #1 benefit of using a scope!

 

[C-grunt]

Id suggest looking at the Aimpoint Micro in a Larue mount. Shop around and you can find the set for 500 used. That covers two of your problems.

1. Weight... The Micro and a BUIS probably weighs less than a carry handle iron sight.

2. Easy on/off.... If you want to shoot your irons, the Larue mount is off in a matter of seconds and will return to very close to zero, if not to zero, when re attached

 

[minutemen1776]

I think I might combine the wisdom offered by wally and C-grunt. When they're back in stock, I'll order a Primary Arms Micro with an ADM mount. That's only $160 or so, and I could likely recoup most of that if I decide to resell the setup later.

 

[minutemen1776]

Oh, and thanks again for the great advice from everyone!

 

[M2 Carbine]

I'm really looking to know why people LOVE their red dots. What makes them a necessary AR add-on? Or are they necessary at all?

I've been using Red Dot sights for many years, especially when my eyes started to go. Now I have something over a couple dozen because I don't want to be changing them around all the time. In the past I bought a couple Aimpoints and other brands but some years back I settled on the cheap $30 BSA sights for one reason, they work and they hold up. I even use them on 12 ga shotguns.

I'm not recommending $30 Red Dot sights (I don't recommend ANYTHING). Just saying what has worked for me for years.

 

[Ro1911]

There are really only three options for a serious "red dot" Aimpoint, eotech, or trigicon.

Out of these if I were to pic just one I'd take the Aimpoint because it is right at the coist/quality boundry its not so high quality that it cost to much but it is still built like a quality tank.

If money is no object then trijicon is better, in my opinion.