Redding Dual-Ring Carbide vs Steel Dies

[labnoti]

I tried a dual-ring carbide die. With the upper ring, it resizes the neck of the case for tension, but the second lower ring sizes the body of the case to a larger diameter that is still sufficient for chambering. Aesthetically, it prevents the waisted look of the loaded cartridge wherein the brass looks like it's been shrink-wrapped around the bullet. Functionally, this seals the chamber better, and Redding claims it offers greater accuracy. It also results in working the brass less. Redding claims, "... all traditional carbide dies resize the remainder [below the neck] of your cases excessively. The price of this compromise is shortened case life of your overworked brass, unsightly appearance and less than ideal chamber fit which may lead to an adverse effect on accuracy."

In their catalog, I read, "This compromise has been tolerated for years by handloaders for the sake of convenience, the convenience of not lubricating cases. Our accuracy tests involving the 44 magnum @ 200 meters for Handgun Silhouette had long ago proven that our properly dimensioned steel sizing dies would always outperform traditional single ring carbide dies in the accuracy department with much better case life. Our new Dual Ring Carbide Dies are able to replicate the advantages of our steel dies without the need for lubrication."

So I understand that steel (non-carbide) dies have long accomplished similar results by being tapered so the case neck is sized down for proper tension while the body is a larger diameter. They simply required the inconvenience of lubricating the cases.

Redding explains in their literature that it is possible to create tapered carbide dies, but the cost would make them unattractive. Furthermore, because of the tapering, lubrication would be needed to ensure extraction and that defeats the main purpose of using carbide.

The more I reload, I increasingly see the desirability of case lube whether carbide dies are used or not. Resizing with lube is smoother even when using carbide dies. What's more, after I resize, I expand the case mouth (for 357). I use a Redding Special Expander Die. Guess what? It takes lube. Since I decap, resize, expand, and then wash the cases, I see little downside to lubricating the cases beforehand.

Because the steel dies only come in a 3 die set with other dies I won't use, the cost savings of a steel die versus a dual-ring carbide die is diminished somewhat. But the real question is which produces the finest finished cartridges? Dual-ring carbide, or steel?

 

[Walkalong]

Steel dies are better than carbide dies as far as sizing brass closer to factory, the dual ring will better replicate that than a single ring will, not all rings are created equal, my long tapered carbide ring in my Lee 9MM sizer is by far the best carbide 9MM sizer I have.

I do not own any dual ring dies.

For revolver calibers you do not need to run the carbide ring as far down as the adjustment will allow, you can "neck size" with it. Ross Sefried played with this technique decades ago.

 

[Walkalong]

Redding explains in their literature that it is possible to create tapered carbide dies, but the cost would make them unattractive.

Well, so is the cost of their dual ring carbide sizers.

 

[nettlle]

I have some Redding dies and I do like them. However the claims to greater accuracy by the use of a particular sizing die would have to be proven to me by someone other than Redding. They are not exactly unbiased.

 

[zeke]

Bought a dual ring for 45 lc. Have a number of Ruger SA's with oversize chambers and slightly under size throats. They work very well for the purpose intended, especially if loading lighter loads that don't fully seal the brass against chamber walls.

Thought about one in 45 acp because am full length sizing and neck sizing with Lee u die for jacketed rounds. Course forgot about it, and never determined how small the top ring sized, like does it reduce thediameter as much as a Lee u die?

Stayed with reguar 44 mag dies, because the 44 mag/44 specials owned have better matched cylinder chambers/throats.

 

[sequins]

I use the standard carbide dies. I've heard rumors the dual ring dies are worse accuracy and I feel if it really was better it would have taken off.

 

[forty_caliber]

I've got a set of the National Match Redding dies that I use for .308. I'm not entirely sure from the description that they are the same as described above and my comments may be anecdotal. Aside from beating the pants off other brands I've tried in the quality department they also seem to work better and require less effort during the resize operation. The floating resize ring does tend to keep better concentricity in the sized cases.

For the set that I own, case lubrication is definitely required. For my .02 they are worth the cost and have performed well for me.

.40

 

[Walkalong]

The Redding dies you mention have a floating carbide expander ball, something I am a fan of in non bushing type sizers.

Overall I agree, Redding makes some very good stuff.

The dual carbide dies are pistol dies.

 

[labnoti]

The question really only pertains to straight-wall cartridges.

There seems to be a unanimous consensus that steel dies produce finished cartridges closer to factory ammo and more accuracy than standard carbide dies. This is not unique to Redding brand.

The dual-ring carbide is uniquely Redding. The question is, does it produce finished cartridges as good as steel (non-carbide) dies?

I understand there are alternative methods like neck-sizing a straight-wall cartridge. But this results in a tight fit on the body that could be difficult to chamber especially when using more than one gun. One workaround is to neck size with a standard carbide die, and then size the body with a Lee FCD.

I have not tried everything yet, but I can report that for 357, the Lee Carbide die sizes the body 0.002 to 0.003" smaller diameter than the Redding Dual-Ring die.

 

[cfullgraf]

Something else to consider. Steel handgun resizing dies require a bit more care in operation than carbide dies. The cases need to be cleaner for steel sizing dies to prevent debris getting embedded in the walls of the steel dies. The debris will scratch the cases.

It takes a bit of work to polish out the problems when they occur.

I'm not saying one should not use steel dies, just be aware of the limitations and take care when operating with them.

I've not tried the Redding dual ring dies, maybe someday. I do like Redding dies and have my share of them.

 

[labnoti]

Ok, I just took some measurements.

I have a revolver that produces fired brass with an OD of 0.380"
The Lee Carbide resizing die sizes it down to 0.373" or 0.374"
The Redding Dual ring sizes the neck to 0.371" or 0.372" and the body to 0.376 or 0.377"
The Lee Factory Crimp Die sizes to 0.378"

A seated bullet in my brass has an OD of 0.376" to 0.377" (depending on the bullet type)

This is for my Starline brass. Because of differing amounts of brass spring-back on the variable thickness of the case wall and other factors, I would not expect the exact results to be duplicated by other equipment with other brass. But these results do give a good indication of the relative amount of sizing these three sizing die types are doing.

It would appear the Dual-Ring die is sizing the neck a little smaller than the Lee Carbide die, and the body significantly larger. The FCD sizes the body slightly larger still, but obviously does not size for proper neck tension.

 

[labnoti]

For me, it looks like the best solution is to size the body with the FCD to at least 0.002" under the chamber diameter. Then size the neck down another 0.004" to two to three thou under the final diameter for neck tension using a standard (Lee) carbide die.

Because the Dual-Ring die's second ring has to be small enough to provide neck tension with thin brass, it works my somewhat thick Starline brass more than necessary. The first ring sizes the body's cartridge a little smaller than I need for this gun. It might be safer if I had to use the ammo in a gun with smaller chambers.

The Lee standard carbide and FCD are essentially a "Dual Ring" carbide die solution. It's just that the dual rings are each in different dies.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

The dual-ring carbide is uniquely Redding. The question is, does it produce finished cartridges as good as steel (non-carbide) dies?

I think they do but they do have their limitations as far as the bullet they are optimized for, the length of the bullet. they seem to work very well with 158gr and 180gr bullets for the .357mag die. You can't adjust the distance between the top and bottom ring.
I would not want to use them for 110gr as I would still have the coke bottle look to them unless I raise the die up, but then I'm not body sizing all the way down to the rim.
125GR are right on the edge but still do look good.
I used to only neck size my brass but they won't drop into a cylinder quickly so they would be a pain for reloading in competition and self defense.

158gr length bullets make beautiful ammo with the dual ring Redding die and they do drop in the cylinder fairly quickly. I really like the one I have and wish they made it in .327FM and 41 Mag. I would buy them if they did.

 

[FROGO207]

Interesting read. I have mostly carbide handgun dies
And most of them are Lee brand. I have shot some of my 38SPL brass so much the head stamp is peened off many of them! I have not noticed any undue neck/sidewall splitting over the last 35 or so years use but I may be charmed in that respect. The cost of a set of dual ring dies is not on my radar for this reason let alone I cannot shoot as accurately as the ammo I now produce. YMMV

 

[Rod47]

I use dual ring resize dies in .38/.357 and .45ACP/.45AR. For me, the real benefit is improved cartridge concentricity in seversl older S&W revolvers.

 

[RodII]

With my 9MM and 45ACP reloads I like the "waisted look" of the loaded rounds as it prevents bullet set back when chambering. As for sealing the chamber better and better accuracy that most likely came from the marketing department.

 

[Varminterror]

I worry far more how rounds shoot than how they look. I also worry far more how easily they pass in process. My process has no room for case lube in handgun cartridges, so I run carbide. Dual and single, all make good ammo, which shoots well.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

With my 9MM and 45ACP reloads I like the "waisted look" of the loaded rounds as it prevents bullet set back when chambering.

I won't argue with that!
It isn't offered in 9mm for good reason, tapered case, and I'm glad for that. That is one I would pass on anyways because of the same reason you stated.

 

[Hondo 60]

All I have to add is that Redding has to create some hyperbole to justify the cost of their dies.

I've used Redding, RCBS, Dillon, Lyman & Lee dies.
The only difference I've seen is that the Lee dies can
be very picky about placement in the shell holder/shell plate.
Their entrance to the sizing die is smaller & therefore I've
crushed a few cases until I learned what the issue was & fixed it.

Just my 2¢ worth.
Of course YMMV

 

[748]

Steel pistol dies suck.
Been there done that gave away the dies always use carbide.
If you are so anal and have to have nice perfecrly straight wall pistol rounds I say pay the price and get the 2 ring carbide.