"Registration" Misconception

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Kp321

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There is a thread in this forum concerning registering a gun obtained in a private sale. From the comments in the thread, there are a number of people on THR who are not aware of what happens after the forms are filled out at your LGS. The transfer form, 4473, goes into the dealers file where it remains until he goes out of business. At such time, he bundles up all of his 4473 forms along with his "bound books" and sends them to the BATF where I presume they sit in a warehouse till the end of time. I personally have been in business for over 35 years so have a large pile of forms to send in when I hang it up. Can't see BATF going through all of those forms years after the transfers.
This is only federal forms, can't speak to state requirements since Texas doesn't require anything, thank God.
 
Pretty much everyone is aware of this, since it is brought up in damn near every single thread about registration.

Edit: I don't mean to sound harsh, but this comes up constantly.
 
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Yet, people who join THR between the last such discussion and whatever "current" one is going on always include a couple who aren't aware of this (I have these talks at local gun shows with people that have moved to a "Free State" from their "Slave State".).
 
Yes indeed. Just yesterday at a gun show I sold a handgun to a gentleman who had recently moved into New Mexico from a state far west of here, and wanted to know how he went about registering his new acquisition. He was simply aghast at the thought that we did not register firearms in this state. I hope the clean air here clears the cobwebs out of his brain so he can earn to think for himself again.
 
And, of course, nobody has ever seen a BATman going around with a camera snapping at bound books. And of course the NICS background check is deleted within 24 hours just like it is supposed to be.
 
I was going to say this.
You are only required to hand over to the ATF the last 15 years records if you close your doors. Everything else you can burn. Same with current FFLs.

Meant to quote 1oz Load.
 
I grew up in NYS where "registration" and "firearms" go together in a sentence like spaghetti and meatballs. Watching TV shows was my only source for firearms for awhile. Shows that take place in NYC, "Was the firearm registered?" For awhile, I thought filling out a 4473 WAS registration. Until I learned better, or hope I did.

It is easy to see how registration has come into the vernacular of someone not very well informed. Boards like this do a great job of making it go away through education.
 
I know that is how it's supposed to work, but I don't believe it. I am generally not a conspiracy nut, but I don't buy it. If a gun is found at a crime scene, can the serial be traced to the last FFL purchase? If yes, it has been "registered" like it or not.
 
Kp321 said:
. . . there are a number of people on THR who are not aware of what happens after the forms are filled out at your LGS. The transfer form, 4473, goes into the dealers file where it remains until he goes out of business . . . I personally have been in business for over 35 years so have a large pile of forms to send in when I hang it up . . .
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A good dealer with good business practices will comply with the law . . . and if that law requires him to keep, say, 20 years of records, then he will periodically purge his files of records older than that.

It's the right thing to do. ;)
 
This is one reason why we like our abilities to sell privately. Arizona is one state that says if you sell to a prohibited person that you should have reasonably known was prohibited, than that's on you. I prefer it that way, but I grew up in Arizona, which I do call a Free State. :)
I personally have been in business for over 35 years so have a large pile of forms to send in when I hang it up.
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I remember when the law changed, got a nice big mailing from ATFE to the gun shop I worked at the time.
 
In WA state, I can assure you the information from a new handgun sale is entered in the state "database". The one that doesn't exist, but any officer can bring up right behind the normal human data screen, in particular if you hold a CPL. With 594, all transactions may very well end up in the same place......although the claim there is no registry.
 
There are rumors and anecdotes of cases where BATFE will illegally copy 4473s as part of an investigation, or otherwise illegally taking custody or reproducing them, but even with those cases, this system would not be viable as blanket backdoor registration.
 
armoredman .....Arizona is one state that says if you sell to a prohibited person that you should have reasonably known was prohibited, than that's on you.....
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Nothing special about Arizona on that...........it's Federal law.;)
 
The point I was making, amigo, was the AZ lays the responsibility on the individual. No registration, no licensing, no waiting periods, no AWB, no magazine limits, nada. If you screw up, you screw up and you pay, not everyone else with lost liberties and denied rights, like Chicago and Washington DC. That's all I mean.

mljdeckard, I had heard of it happening in Alaska and Philadelphia, "forward tracing" they called it. Strictly forbidden under fed law, but still manages to happen once in a while. That's all I know.
 
mljdeckard said:
There are rumors and anecdotes of cases where BATFE will illegally copy 4473s as part of an investigation, or otherwise illegally taking custody or reproducing them, but even with those cases, this system would not be viable as blanket backdoor registration.
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I tried using this logic in another thread, but some people will never be convinced. These are the same people who think private sales are a loophole, and universal background checks will prevent prohibited persons from procuring pistols. All alliteration aside, just considering how many purchases and sales, both via FFL and privately, I've made in the last five years, I've got to agree the current system is a nightmare if you want to use it for some sort of backdoor registry.
 
guyfromohio said:
I know that is how it's supposed to work, but I don't believe it. I am generally not a conspiracy nut, but I don't buy it. If a gun is found at a crime scene, can the serial be traced to the last FFL purchase? If yes, it has been "registered" like it or not.
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That's a logical common sense conclusion that many refuse to comprehend. The serial number of the gun is tethered to your name regardless if you get rid of the firearm or not.

If VA starts making gun registration mandatory, but has not criminalized private sales. I register my gun. I later sell the gun I registered. Does that mean that the gun is no longer registered to me?

FFL's are basically modular databases who are registering our firearms and are storing the information for the government use. The ATF openly admits this, and what other reason is there for them storing this information if not to be used as a way to link a person to a specific firearm?
 
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FFL's are basically modular databases who are registering our firearms and are storing the information for the government use. The ATF openly admits this, and what other reason is there for them storing this information if not to be used as a way to link a person to a specific firearm?
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That's how I see it. Some FFL's just let the ATF scan everything on file when they "inspect" their records.

If you look at the information on a 4473 you would realize that it is nothing more than a registration that has enough personal information to do a BC. The FFL is doing the registration work for the fed. Those records eventually end up with the fed and digitized. The ATF has said it's their property, the FFL just stores it as a condition to be able to transact business. All the law says is the record of the BC has to be destroyed in 90 days. It doesn't say the original record with all of the information has to be destroyed.

The reason for the push to eliminate the private sale is registration. It is advertised as being a BC but every proposed new "BC" law I've seen includes a registration of some sort. Some are even honest about this and say that a BC is worthless without registration.

A BC is to keep people who are deemed a threat from buying guns. A registration is to locate a person and a gun for whatever reason the authorities deem appropriate. Big difference here.
 
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^
That article is a good example of how the ATF operates.

Regarding BC's, I have a standing order for myself when I vote. No new gun control and no new taxes. I don't care how it's presented. Nothing ever gets repealed and we just get more.

I can't turn the tide but I can state my opinion and vote.

Good link.
 
Here is a video of the ATF breaking the law, they have a repository of old 4473s, you know the ones gunshops send in when they go out of business. They are suppose to be discarded after 20 years but the video shows employees looking over microfilm. How antiquated is microfilm?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lFdLaYcDNQ

There is another film, I will try to find, showing the ATF scanning all of the records into electronic databases. I am sure they aren't stored on the cloud for eternity, right? This film I am thinking about has a pretty funny bit, the guy is clearly frustrated because so many boxes come in wet, I guess the USPS has leaky roofs.
 
CoalTrain49 ...... All the law says is the record of the BC has to be destroyed in 90 days. It doesn't say the original record with all of the information has to be destroyed.
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Wrong yet again. Where do you come by this wealth of misinformation?:scrutiny:
FBI NICS background checks that result in a proceed are deleted at the end of the NICS business day (midnight Central time). Delayed transactions are held until the status changes to "proceed" at which time they are deleted. If the initial transaction was a Deny or a delay which changed to Deny they are stored permanently as required by law.
 
Dogtown Tom,

The mistake you are making is you are defining "delete" in the common usage by citizens not government bureaucrats. As a retired government bureaucrat I can tell you that every agency has it's set of definitions and policies. Often policies that are in violation of Federal Law will be enforced until they are sued and taken to Court (this also applies to most States).

Consider this if Investigators can recover Lois Lerner emails from destroyed hard drive how hard will it be to recover "deleted" instant checks?
 
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Wrong yet again. Where do you come by this wealth of misinformation?
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FBI website.

I thought it was 90 but it's 88. I was trying to use the max number because lots of people get delayed. Very few get denied for obvious reasons.

A delayed transaction will be purged from the NICS within 88 days from creation.
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