Regulations question

[2nd Amendment]

A friend recently lost his FFL. It's a long and twisted tale of Jack-Bootism which I'll leave out for now. The ATF guy who handled the whole thing told him that all his firearms could be transferred from the shop to his personal possession and then sold. Immediately. Just like any other private sale with no paper trail.

However, in reading thru the Rules and Regulations of ATF, after the fact, we found a section stating clearly(apparently) that these guns in fact can NOT be sold for a period of one year after license revocation. Even then they require a log book. This is emphatically NOT what the ATF'er said, repeatedly. This was one of the reasons my friend went down without a fight, against my repeated whining, and it now appears he is utterly screwed yet again.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Does the statement of an agent trump the official pronouncements of ATF(I doubt it)? Something absolutely stinks here.

Oh, an the side, has anyone else noticed a sudden push by ATF to yank FFL's on somewhat questionable technicalities? We've seen four shops shut down in southern Indiana in the last few months over paperwork SNAFU's that would normally have gotten nothing more than a bitch & moan session. Is there a trend or agenda going on here? And if so, what's behind it?

 

[countertop]

An ATF agent is a mindless thug. He neither knows what the law is, nor has authoirty to grant waivers from it. He cannot prosecute, he cannot try.

All he can do is act out at the direction of his superiors.

Nothing a federal employee tells you is ever guaranteed.

Your friend should speak with a lawyer.

 

[DMF]

Oh, an the side, has anyone else noticed a sudden push by ATF to yank FFL's on somewhat questionable technicalities?

Just the opposite actually. The ATF is so short on inspectors that they haven't been able to meet their own goal of inspecting FFLs every THREE YEARS. They are only inspecting less than 5% of FFLs each year.

Also, the number of FFLs shut down by the ATF is miniscule. In fact one of the gripes about the John Malvo case was that the store that sold him the Bushmaster he used had several problems, but the ATF didn't shut them down. In 2002 there were 1800 inspections, but only 54 dealers had their licenses revoked.

ATF only has a few hundred Inspectors, but there are over 100,000 FFLs in the US, and they receive over 8000 applications every year, which the Inspectors also have responsibility of processing, not to mention the Class III applications they must also handle.

For the facts of the matter check this Fox News story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126210,00.html

If there are a few FFLs shutting down in your area, it is most likely due to them choosing not to renew, or going out business. The gun business isn't as profitable as it was a few decades ago.

As for your friend getting bad info from the ATF, we only have your version of the events, which you got second hand from him. Therefore it is impossible to know if your story is any way accurate.

 

[taliv]

it's never wise to jump to conclusions without hearing both sides of the story.

however, what an agent tells you doesn't matter at all. it's no different than the IRS. this isn't walmart where you get the item free if they have the wrong price marked.

he might possibly have a chance of having a case if he had sent a written request and got an official ruling. the verbal opinion of an agent is worthless.

 

[DMF]

An ATF agent is a mindless thug. He neither knows what the law is, nor has authoirty to grant waivers from it. He cannot prosecute, he cannot try.

Well since I know several ATF Special Agents personnally I can say with great certainty that you have no idea what you are talking about, as every one I have worked with was very knowledgeable and professional.

However, this is NOT an issue of the Special Agents (GS-1811 Criminal Investigators), because inspections and other adminstrative matters relating to FFLs are the responsibility of the Inspectors (GS-1801). Since I happen to know some of them too, again you have no idea what you're talking about, as everyone I have met and worked with, was also very knowledgeable and professional.

 

[2nd Amendment]

DMF, first off I'll just not say several things I would like to say to you.

Next up, I was there for most all of it, so no, this is a first hand account and dead on accurate. See what happens when you talk without knowing what you're talking about? Also, the four dealers in question I have also talked to, plus a couple of thier distributors. Slightly different situations on the inventory, though, since all sold before the license was yanked.

And thx, countertop. I know you're right but I am still hoping this guy knows something we're missing. It IS his job, afterall.

 

[2nd Amendment]

OH! Did I forget to mention that one instance is on the video security system tape? Gee, so sorry.

 

[DMF]

DMF, first off I'll just not say several things I would like to say to you.

Next up, I was there for most all of it, so no, this is a first hand account and dead on accurate.

Well then at best we get your version of what you parts you were there for, which may or may not be accurate.

However, the real numbers about ATF inspections and license revocations tell a much different story.

 

[DMF]

Great post the video in MPEG format.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Yeah, right. As if I have a clue how, or the equipment needed, to put an old cassette tape to MPEG. Or as if I would post something like that in a public forum. Hell, there's probably a law against it... :banghead:

 

[DMF]

Then absent any proof we only have your word. Feel free to call me Thomas and assume I'm from Missouri.

 

[2nd Amendment]

So tell us, DMF, do the bureaucrats EVER do anything wrong in your eyes?

And back to the question, do YOU know the answers? If not then why are you running your mouth defending people I didn't even attack? Or did you fail to notice I asked questions, as opposed to initiating a rant?

 

[taliv]

hey DMF, since you know some ATF agents and I know none, i'd be interested in hearing your opinion about whether the ones you know are generally pro or anti gun. are any NRA members? are any hunters? do they support the 2nd amendment?

regardless of how professional or knowledgable they are (i'm sure they're both), I'm just curious to see how a stereotype holds up, and thanks for any info

 

[DMF]

. . . people I didn't even attack?

It's a long and twisted tale of Jack-Bootism . . .

Do I know everything? Hell no. However, I know enough about the ATF Inspectors, what they do, and how they do it, to know your story doesn't ring true.

 

[countertop]

Thats nice DMF.

I know the Secretary of Treasury.

Doesn't change any facts. I don't care how knowledgeable any one agent may be, how well he performs his job, how nice and knowledgeable and professional they are.

At the end of the day, they are simply cogs in a wheel, small bits of a much greater machine and their thoughts and opinions, especially on legal and compliance matters, count (in a legal sense) as much as the opinion of the homeless guy on the street corner.

The purpose of my post was to remind 2nd Amendment that you should never, ever, trust the advice of any bureaucrats, especially in a matter where criminal charges are a very likely possibility.

As I said then, I'll say again, his friend should get a lawyer.

 

[DMF]

hey DMF, since you know some ATF agents and I know none, i'd be interested in hearing your opinion about whether the ones you know are generally pro or anti gun. are any NRA members? are any hunters? do they support the 2nd amendment?

A couple are avid hunters. Most owned firearms long before getting into LE, and could be easily described as gun enthusiasts. Most have friends that are not in LE, but own firearms. So while I have never had a 2A discussion/debate with them, when they were gun owners prior, have friends who are not LE who are gun owners, and are gun enthusiasts, I'd have to say they seem pretty pro-2A.

Whether any are members of the NRA I don't know. I have never asked and probably never will.

While I'm not in the ATF, I am a cop. I can tell you I'm a big supporter of the Second Amendment, just like I'm a big supporter of the WHOLE CONSTITUTION, just like the other cops I know. However, I got tired of the lies told by the NRA, and stopped giving them money about 15 years ago. Long before Bush 41 quit the NRA, I quit for similar reasons.

Want to know some of the lunacy of the NRA, and why I won't give them money? Check my thoughts on this thread over on sigforum: http://sigforum.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=674608412&f=230601935&m=67410164&r=78410264#78410264

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Actually, in this case, the ATF agent is correct.

The one year applies only to a FFL that transfers a firearm into his personal collection and then sells that firearm while still having a valid FFL. After being in his personal collection for one year, he can then sell the firearm to a private party without doing the background check or 4473. The only stipulation is that he record the transfer. If it has been in his collection less than one year, he puts it back into his FFL inventory and then must do all of the federal paperwork.

When a FFL gives up his license, he automatically reverts to a "non-licensee" status and may buy and sell firearms in the same manner as any other private citizen. The FFL has 30 days to send in his bound book. A non-licensee is not required to maintain records of firearm transactions.

 

[countertop]

HKmp5

That may be, but the fact remains that if this is the guys livelihood, he should not be getting legal advice from the internet and needs to speak with a lawyer.

If he screws up somewhere along the way, what is he going to say? Some anonymous guy on the internet told me what I can do? That will carry as much weight in court as claiming to follow the instructions of a federal agent.

He needs to get a lawyer.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

If he wants to be cautious, all he needs to do if write to ATF's licensing division asking for clarification and get a written response. But given the fact he has already sent his records to ATF, where exactly is he supposed to record this new transfer? After recording it, what does he do with the record?

 

[taliv]

DMF, interesting discussion on that thread. i mostly agree with you. i left the NRA because of their strategy when the clinton gun ban started. For ten years I told the telemarketers that I would renew my membership when the ban expired, because I wasn't at all happy that they were supporting bush who freely admits supporting gun bans. They withheld their support of bush until the ban expired, and I renewed my membership in mid-september.

I'd like to believe it's the politicians at fault (and obviously they are) and that ATF is a respectible bunch, but sometimes it's just hard to tell who's telling the truth.

thx again,

 

[2nd Amendment]

Thx, HK. I tried to read it that way but the way it is written is "odd". I talked to another former dealer who was selling them left and right from the moment he lost his FFL but he was so blase about the whole thing I wasn't really comfortable quoting anything he had to say. Of course that whole blase attitude was what cost that fellow his FFL, so...

I've been preaching to him to lawyer-up since all this started. But he's a nice guy and thinks everyone else will be nice in return. That is what got him into this mess, thx to a former employee. And the reason I brand this whole thing an exercise in Jack-bootism is because the ATF could have dealt with this when it happened. He tried to get them too, but they just didn't seem to care. NOW it blows up in his face because he didn't catch everything.

Anyway, I figure we're well passed the attorney stage but he WILL be sending off a letter to the ATF for a written translation of all this. I thought the agent must be right in some way because he was very specific about it but damned if I could reconcile it all. This at least gives me something more to go on. Thx again.

 

[2nd Amendment]

A few things today: I discovered that DMF is correct, that wasn't the entire story. It was far worse, regarding both my friend AND ATF. I swear, if I ran my business like that the state of Indiana would have had my ass. But in the process they would have at least showed up to help when I requested it. Jeez.

HK, you are definitely correct, and Counter, he has FINALLY retained a lawyer. He's also getting a written confirmation on what HK said.

And lastly, back to DMF, a couple things: 1) There were 54 revocations in 2002. Thing is that a voluntary surrendering of the FFL does not appear to count as a "revocation". 2) Also, in 2004 at least 15 Indiana shops have had their FFL revoked, NOT INCLUDING voluntary surrender of the license to avoid further action. Multiply that by 50 states and it appears I was correct in my initial statement and something is up...

The Bloomington paper recently ran an article on this, talking about how Ashcroft and the Justice Dept, apparently in cahoots with ATF, have been using these closures, based on issues that generally would have previously gotten nothing more than a slap on the wrist, to jack up "gun crime" success statistics. If I can find it on line I'll post a link to it. If not I'll see if I can't find a paper and scan it...

What does that say to me? Not a lot, really. Just politicians and bureaucrats doing thier thing. But if sKerry becomes president? Well this is coming from an Admin and Justice Dept supposedly on "our" side. I'll leave the rest to your imaginations.