Reloading .357 for a 4" Barrel

[csmats]

I'm getting back into reloading because my kids are older - two in college, one in high school, so only the youngest still has "parent activities" - and I have more free time on the weekends. I'm starting with .38/.357, for which I have numerous revolvers as well as a Marlin 1894c. The specific revolver I'm looking for advice on is a S&W 686 with a 4" barrel. The type of loads I'm contemplating are .357 general defense including dangerous animals. I'm not doing this for actual home-defense as I have other firearms dedicated to that for which I use factory ammo; this is solely for learning and enjoyment.

Basically, I want to test powerful but efficient loads for the particular platform I'm using. I'm looking to find a load that I can shoot accurately double action at close range but can still hurl lead 25-50 yards downrange offhand single action with paper plate accuracy. I have 296, 2400, 4227, and Alliant Power Pro 300-MP (which I've never used before). I also have Unique. I want to use a heavier bullet and I have cast 158gr SWC, cast 170gr RNFP, and 158gr XTP. For what it might be worth I also have Speer swaged 158gr SWCHP and Hornady swaged 148gr HBWC.

The specific question I have is regarding 4" vs 6" barrels in the .357. I've long read that many consider the 6" barrel to be optimum for .357 because the shorter you go the more you're blowing unburned powder out of the barrel. When I was young I just worked toward max all the time but now decades later I find myself wanting to take a more measured, thought-out approach. In a 4" .357 is there a point where below-max loads get you substantially the same performance as max loads?

 

[joneb]

Welcome to THR
I use W296/ H110, Accurate #9 and 2400 for jacketed bullets. I've loaded 300 MP in 44 mag. and 22 hornet with very good results using jacketed bullets, I haven't tried it in 357 mag. yet.
For swaged bullets in 357 mag. I use Bullseye, W231 and Accurate #2, Unique is to dirty for me at lower pressure and didn't meter well in my powder throw.
For cast bullets with a BHN of 12-14 I like Accurate #5, VV N340. With a BHN of 18+ or gas checked my favorite is 2400 at bullet weights of 158-180gr.
I've had 2.75, 4 and 6" barreled 357's, the 2.75" likes 2400, Accurate #9 and VV N110 over W296/H110 for warm loads.

What loading manuals do you have? Have you checked out the online loading data from the powder manufactures?

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I prefer midrange burnrate powders like Power Pistol, BE-86, Universal and so on for non-magnum loads.

My favorite loads for these with 158gr plated, jacketed or lead is
Power Pistol, 8.2 gr. depending on where you look 8.6 is max
BE-86, 7.6 gr. Alliant says 7.8gr is max.

These two both meter very well and if you don't like Power Pistols flash then go to BE-86.

With the powders you have already I would use the 2400 for practice because you can load it down more than the others (I use a spread of 12-14.9gr for 2400) but you will never get rid of unburned flakes with the slow powders.

Are your lead bullets hard cast or softer? Did you cast them or buy them?

I consider hardcast anything over 18 brn and I use them with the slow burning powders, but wheel weight lead always leads my barrels at the higher speeds like over 1200. Some casters have this down but I never did.

With the xtps, maximum is the limit.

 

[USSR]

The specific question I have is regarding 4" vs 6" barrels in the .357. I've long read that many consider the 6" barrel to be optimum for .357 because the shorter you go the more you're blowing unburned powder out of the barrel.

The reason the 6" barrel is considered "optimum" has more to do with the longer sight radius making it easier to hit what you're aiming at, not "blowing unburned powder out of the barrel".

When I was young I just worked toward max all the time but now decades later I find myself wanting to take a more measured, thought-out approach. In a 4" .357 is there a point where below-max loads get you substantially the same performance as max loads?

Performance is a combination of velocity and a bullet's reaction to that velocity in whatever medium it is placed in. This is more a factor with jacketed bullets than cast bullets. Forget the swaged 158gr SWCHP and swaged 148gr HBWC bullet, the will not hold up to the velocity and will lead your barrel badly. I would try 13.5gr of 2400 powder with either of the cast bullets or the 158gr XTP, and see if it works well for you in double-action shooting. If not, then you may want to go more towards upper-end .38 Special +P loads using Unique. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

You load the same for both of them. And actually, I load the same for my 2 1/2" .357 as well. Same goes for a rifle. The powder is burned long before it exits the barrel. If a load has unburned powder in a short barrel it will in a long barrel. That's a load problem, not a barrel length problem.

Welcome to THR

 

[ljnowell]

You load the same for both of them. And actually, I load the same for my 2 1/2" .357 as well. Same goes for a rifle. The powder is burned long before it exits the barrel. If a load has unburned powder in a short barrel it will in a long barrel. That's a load problem, not a barrel length problem.

Welcome to THR

Boy did I start a heck of a fight saying the EXACT same thing awhile back, lol!

This is the truth though. The load with the highest velocity in the 6" will post the highest in the 4". As for powder burning, the overwhelming majority will burn in the barrel in both, as you said, there will be more expanding gases leaving the 4" and when hitting open air they will produce a beautiful fireball.

 

[Walkalong]

Change powders to change velocity windows, not barrel lengths, and even with the same powder you can vary velocity a fair amount in .357 Mag.

 

[gamestalker]

My go to powder is 296 / H110, love that stuff. But 2400 and 4227 will do very well also.

Barrel length, is barrel length, and isn't a consideration with regard to powder choice. Even from a snub, a full house charge of 296 burns completely.

GS

 

[jmr40]

Some thoughts

Barrel length is huge in magnum revolvers. The data listed in most ballistics charts is from 7-8" barrels. Even 6" barrels will be significantly slower. A 4" barrel is about as short as I find acceptable and you just have to live with the fact that is will be a lot slower. Personally, it is worth it to have a handier gun. Anything longer than 4" and I'd just as soon carry a rifle. No one would expect a 300 magnum with a 12" barrel to be anywhere near factory numbers taken from a 24" barrel. But a lot of hand gunners are surprised to find their 4" guns are no where near the numbers published from 8" barrels.

You'll often see over 100 fps difference between barrels of the same length and it wouldn't be unheard of for an individual 4" gun to shoot faster than some 6" guns. This creates a lot of confusion because sometimes individuals will have a shorter barrel gun that doesn't fit the norm and they are convinced the shorter barrel isn't hurting them.

Some data here. I know it isn't perfect, but you can get some general ideas. Note that the 6" Python is consistently slower than the 4" 686 with all the same loads.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

The type of loads I'm contemplating are .357 general defense including dangerous animals. I'm not doing this for actual home-defense as I have other firearms dedicated to that for which I use factory ammo; this is solely for learning and enjoyment.

For what you want to do I'd be looking at a minimum of 180 gr bullets and would prefer 200's. There are some factory loadings with 200's at 1200 fps and 180's at 1400 from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap from 4" barrels. I don't think you can reach that with handloads, but should be able to come close

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Take a look at the WFN 180 gr coated bullet from Missouri Bullet Company. Over 13.1 gr of H110 (Safe in my gun, I can't be responsible for yours.) I measured 1140 fps from my Taurus Model 66 with a 4" barrel. That compared pretty favorably to the 1180 fps I measured from HSM's 180 gr WFN/GC "Bear Load" in the same gun. You may need to tweak the load for best accuracy in your gun.

BTW, the velocities of the same bullets in my Rossi 20" levergun were 1570 fps and 1630 fps respectively. No leading in either gun with the coated bullets.

Conventional wisdom has the non-expanding heavy hard cast bullet as the best choice for dangerous critters in the woods, which is why I went this way. The nose shapes of the HSM and the MBC look to be identical.

You do know you are shooting a magnum when you touch one off.

 

[BigBore45]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Oh you mean this gun? LOL. I run 158 Gr. Sierra HP with 16 Grains of IMR 4227. Good full house round. clean burning and still manageable under recoil with this heavy gun.


new Winchester cases trim length 1.292"

Winchester mag primers

IMR 4227/ 16 grains

Sierra 158 grain Hollow point/ Crimped in canlure(SP).


Cases show no sign of high pressure and fall out of cylinder. as always work up to this load. but this is a large frame smith and can handle much more than the poly .357 snub noses of today.

 

[voicomp]

By and large, in theory I would lean towards heavier slugs and a faster powder as you shorten the barrel so I suggest starting with the heaviest slug and the fastest two or three powders you have and making making a batch of each for a little competition to see which meets the most of your standards.

If you were to consider another powder, perhaps AA9 would be worth a whirl (I have found it has good case filling properties and delivers very consistent velocities). Alternatively, perhaps consider an even heavier slug?

 

[WestKentucky]

I love .357 for no especially good reason. I have had everything from a 2" to my current behemoth of a 15" buntline revolver. Realistically from short to long I never noticed anything other than a change in how big the fireball is when shooting in low light conditions. Longer barrels gain more velocity with slower powders where short barrels benefit from quicker powders...but that doesn't make as big of a difference as some folks act like. I like 2400, 231, 296, and accurate#7. For 4" I think I would start with the #7 but since you listed 2400 that's a good start too.

 

[ljnowell]

Reloading .357 for a 4" Barrel

I love .357 for no especially good reason. I have had everything from a 2" to my current behemoth of a 15" buntline revolver. Realistically from short to long I never noticed anything other than a change in how big the fireball is when shooting in low light conditions. Longer barrels gain more velocity with slower powders where short barrels benefit from quicker powders...but that doesn't make as big of a difference as some folks act like. I like 2400, 231, 296, and accurate#7. For 4" I think I would start with the #7 but since you listed 2400 that's a good start too.

Please define what benefit short barrels have with faster powders.

 

[WestKentucky]

Shorter barrel gives less time for accelleration so you need a fast powder to push as hard as it can for that split second the bullet is accellerating. With longer barrels you want a slightly slower powder to keep pressure on the bullet longer letting it accelerate the whole time it's in the barrel.

If you go the wrong way it's easier to see...if you use a slow powder in a short barrel it will still be burning when it leaves the barrel and a lot of the potential energy will be wasted in a big fireball. If you use a fast powder in a long barrel the powder all burns and pressures decrease with the bullet still in the barrel so that last few inches of barrel basically acts like brakes for the bullet and starts slowing it down.

 

[ljnowell]

Reloading .357 for a 4" Barrel

Shorter barrel gives less time for accelleration so you need a fast powder to push as hard as it can for that split second the bullet is accellerating. With longer barrels you want a slightly slower powder to keep pressure on the bullet longer letting it accelerate the whole time it's in the barrel.

If you go the wrong way it's easier to see...if you use a slow powder in a short barrel it will still be burning when it leaves the barrel and a lot of the potential energy will be wasted in a big fireball. If you use a fast powder in a long barrel the powder all burns and pressures decrease with the bullet still in the barrel so that last few inches of barrel basically acts like brakes for the bullet and starts slowing it down.

That sounds great in theory but it fails in practice.

The fastest powder will make more velocity in a 6" barrel than it will in a 2". The bullet will not slow down in the last inches of barrel.

Likewise the slowest powders will provide the highest velocity in any barrel length. A faster powder will not make more velocity.

The big fireball you see isn't nearly as much "wasted energy" as you think.

If your goal is velocity switching to a faster powder is a failing concept no matter the barrel length.

 

[joneb]

That sounds great in theory but it fails in practice.

So what about all that unburnt slow powder spewed from the short barrel? And not from a longer one? Since I've started using a chronogragh this is easily explained.

 

[ljnowell]

So what about all that unburnt slow powder spewed from the short barrel? And not from a longer one? Since I've started using a chronogragh this is easily explained.

Take your chronograph and check a max load of Win296 out of a 2" barrel. Then do the same with Aa#5 or 7. I guarantee you that the 296 load will produce more velocity.

 

[sixguns]

I use H110/W296 with a 158gr XTP for heavy 357 loads. Titegroup powder is used in 38 Special cases with a variety of bullets for the lighter stuff.

 

[joneb]

check a max load of Win296 out of a 2" barrel. Then do the same with Aa#5 or 7.

I know what you're saying but,
I get better results in a 2.75" barrel with 158gr jacketed using Accurate #9, 2400 and VV N110 than I do with W296/H110, better accuracy and more consistent velocities.

 

[ljnowell]

I know what you're saying but,

I get better results in a 2.75" barrel with 158gr jacketed using Accurate #9, 2400 and VV N110 than I do with W296/H110, better accuracy and more consistent velocities.

I can't argue with that! That's kinda why I asked what you meant. Many people base best on velocity, others rounds per pound. Myself, I'm like you, velocity is nothing if it's not accurate. I've always found 2400 to provide better accuracy with near the velocity of 296/110. That's what I've always went with.

 

[WelshShooter]

My go to powder is Ramshot true blue. It meters really well and has produced the tightest grouping out of Bullseye and Accurate No2 powders that I've worked with.

 

[Walkalong]

I get better results in a 2.75" barrel with 158gr jacketed using Accurate #9, 2400 and VV N110 than I do with W296/H110, better accuracy and more consistent velocities.

Better results accuracy wise, ES & SD wise, etc is different than will a faster powder give better velocity in a short barrel than a slow powder.

I don't know the overall answer to that one, as will they always, or sometimes, etc, but I am sure there are good examples of when they do. It only makes sense they would sometimes, but better velocity? Nope.

But is that the question?

In a 4" .357 is there a point where below-max loads get you substantially the same performance as max loads?

Initially I answered as if the question was just do you need faster powders for shorter barrels, which is no where velocity is concerned, but after re-reading the opening post, the way it is worded I would tend to say it depends if performance is accuracy or on target results on game.

But how does the OP define "performance" here?

 

[ljnowell]

But how does the OP define "performance" here?

That's the million dollar question!!!

 

[IWAC]

/for my 327s, I have always used Unique, with some experimentation with 2400, Blue Dot, and Universal.

For years, I used cast 150-1