How can I resize the brass before using an expanding mandrel?

[westernrover]

I've been using Redding S-type bushing dies to resize my brass.
I'm buying dies for a new-to-me cartridge.
I want to use a Wilson expanding mandrel and die to set the neck size before seating.

I could resize the brass in a Redding S-type bushing die, but a FL die would cost me $130 for this cartridge, plus $15 to $30 for the bushing if I get the right one the first time. I already have the carbide button for this caliber, so after all that, the mandrel doesn't add enough value for another ~$60.

But, if I could resize down a simpler way, then the mandrel would be adding quality for the additional expense.

A Redding non-bushing FL die is $55, but what will it do to my necks? Presumably, it will shrink the necks down enough that the mandrel will push them back open to a desirable dimension to seat the bullet, but what if it sets the neck ID such that the mandrel goes in and out and doesn't do any more? I'll be using Nosler brass.

 

[BBarn]

A standard FL sizing die will size the neck enough for use with a mandrel. The mandrels are available in .001" or .002" under bullet diameter.

 

[AJC1]

I use standard dies and mandrels. If you want the best option a honed forester die is that option. You can have it honed later if you get the die and change your mind....

 

[sugarmaker]

If I understand correctly, this involves using a Redding FL die with the decap/expander removed? Unless the necks have been turned to a thinner profile the FL sizer should leave a small enough ID that the mandrel will be setting the ID. Barring some unusually tight neck requirements the idea seems sound.

 

[Varminterror]

I size with Redding Type S FL bushing dies then expand with mandrels. Not a penny wasted. Minimal movement of the brass, phenomenal dies, and fantastic ammunition.

Honed dies work great for the ONE lot of brass you used when measuring for the honing job - if you’re annealing every firing, then you can count on consistent spring back after sizing, but as most cases grow during firing, we end up with thinner and thinner necks over more and more firings, so our ID’s grow, and all bets are off if we change lots, let alone brands of brass... The adaptability improvement is why we pay for bushing dies. Naturally, Standard dies, as a product class, will squish the ever-loving hell out of case necks, and not everyone wants that much work done to their brass.

 

[AJC1]

I size with Redding Type S FL bushing dies then expand with mandrels. Not a penny wasted. Minimal movement of the brass, phenomenal dies, and fantastic ammunition.

Honed dies work great for the ONE lot of brass you used when measuring for the honing job - if you’re annealing every firing, then you can count on consistent spring back after sizing, but as most cases grow during firing, we end up with thinner and thinner necks over more and more firings, so our ID’s grow, and all bets are off if we change lots, let alone brands of brass... The adaptability improvement is why we pay for bushing dies. Naturally, Standard dies, as a product class, will squish the ever-loving hell out of case necks, and not everyone wants that much work done to their brass.

So finish big by saying that multiple bushings and mandrels will be needed

 

[westernrover]

Right - FL sizer with no expander. Then the mandrel. So if I don't get anything out of the bushing die, I should just get a regular FL die. I understand getting a bushing to minimize smashing the necks down, but I guess that just depends on how far the FL die squeezes them.

My necks are tapered. So for example, with new Nosler brass, near the base of the neck but still well-above the shoulder, the neck is .297" and it tapers to .296" at the mouth. Once fired in the chamber, the brass is .301" tapering to .300" at the mouth. This is consistent with the SAAMI drawing that shows the chamber's neck tapering from .3016" to .300".

I don't believe bushings are tapered, are they? Would a FL die taper the neck?

 

[Varminterror]

So finish big by saying that multiple bushings and mandrels will be needed

Multiple bushings. A shooter only needs multiple mandrels if they choose to change their neck tension, because the relationship between ID and bullet diameter doesn’t change unless you want a different neck tension. The bushing is really the variable.

I don’t cry about the price on dies, stepping over dollars to worry about dimes has never made sense to me - I bought a new set of 6 Dasher dies for my son’s rifle two years ago, it’s sized over 2000 rounds for him already, and will size that many this season… that’s $1600 in barrels, and over $3500 in ammo, over $1000 in match fees… in just 2 years… I burned out 9 barrels on 6 creed so far with one of my die sets… I’m not crying about having spent $100 for 3 sizes of bushings and 2 sizes of mandrel…

 

[Varminterror]

So if I don't get anything out of the bushing die, I should just get a regular FL die.

You get control out of the bushing die.

 

[The Glockodile]

Technically prone to introducing inconsistencies, keeping all necks at the same thickness despite careful "neck turning." May need to vary bushings with each resizing due to said 0.001" inconsistencies.

Any FLS die + subsequent dilating mandrel use probably would yield "good enough" consistency.

 

[Varminterror]

Would a FL die taper the neck?

You don’t want it to taper the neck.

 

[westernrover]

For this rifle, it won't be shot much, but each shot costs thousands of bucks. It's a big game rifle. Because it's a magnum barrel-burner, it's not for training or practice. I'm not looking to be cheap, but to be smart. I need to develop a load, and then have a few cartridges per year to take game and that's only if I get a tag. I can get the Nosler brass for about $3 a piece and if I bought 150, that might be all that gets used in two generations. Maybe I don't even need to resize. Just use my Wilson seater and throw the used brass away.

 

[westernrover]

You don’t want it to taper the neck.

The neck is already tapered. I think my question is whether I want it to smash the neck into a cylinder or not. I know the Redding Competition Bushing die allows the depth of neck sizing to be adjusted so I could push the neck part way into the bushing. Is that what I want to do?

 

[Varminterror]

my question is whether I want it to smash the neck into a cylinder or not.

You do.

The bullet shank is a cylinder. You want your case neck to be a cylinder also, making consistent, uniform contact throughout its contact with the bullet bearing surface.

 

[westernrover]

Doesn't that assume the neck is of even thickness from base to mouth? Could the brass be tapered in thickness?

I know if it's all shrunk down, the mandrel will expand the ID to a cylinder, and if the walls are tapered then the outside might end up tapered. It looks like the Wilson mandrel is .001 under. I have some experience where that was not enough. In my 6,5 Grendel, I needed 2 thou under or the bullets could be pushed in with finger pressure. I was getting the necks 1 thou under using a bushing only, no expander, no mandrel. I ended up using a Lee collet die to squeeze them down more. The LCD mandrel is .262" not .263"

 

[Varminterror]

Could the brass be tapered in thickness?

If it is, then you do not want it to be. Buy better brass, or accept the burden of neck turning.

 

[westernrover]

It looks like the Nosler "fully prepped" new brass is 4 thou under bullet diameter. It could probably be expanded a couple thou before I seat.
A new piece of Nosler brass is .292" OD whereas a factory loaded Nosler cartridge is .296". Fired, it's .300" In all cases, there is that one thou of taper - on the new brass, factory cartridge, and the fired case, the first third of the neck is about 1 thou more.

If I were to use the "fully prepped" brass as-is, it looks like that would give me 4 thou of "neck tension" -- that term sort of assumes all the deformation is elastic. I suspect that a bullet is not the best mandrel and since a lot of that would actually be plastic deformation resizing, it would be better to expand the neck before seating. I'm still reluctant to expand it to .263" ID. That concerns me for loose bullets. Now suppose I run a .263" mandrel in there and it springs back to .262". I might be ok, but I can't predict how much the brass will spring or not.

 

[westernrover]

If I resize and re-use brass during load development, I can save the expense of that many pieces of brass. Even if I don't use the reloads for hunting, I already have 19 fired cases I could use for load development if I buy the equipment to resize them. It looks like I'll need a mandrel even for the new brass. The additional $150 expense of a FL bushing die and a SAC bushing will probably be saved if I reload those cases a few times instead of buying another 50 cases.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to turn the necks on old-school tapered neck cartridges. Look at the 30-30. The necks taper by 3 thou. So does 35 Remington. 303 British tapers 2 thou. Not all the old ones taper, but some do. It's mostly an obsolete thing, but 416 Rigby tapers by 0.7 thou and 416 Ruger by 1.0 thou. Because the chamber's neck is also tapered, turning the neck might just blow it out resizing would fatigue the shoulder joint.

 

[westernrover]

Now I have to decide, should I get the Wilson expander or buy a more specific size from 21st Century? It looks like 21st Century also sizes them 0.0008+/-0.0002 below bullet diameter, in other words, 1 thou. Do I just trust that or order one of their 262 or 2625 mandrels? Then I'd be 2 or 1.5 thou under.

 

[BBarn]

I'd just get a standard FL die and a .002" under mandrel. Doesn't even need to be a Redding sizer. And for the low quantities, it doesn't need to be a carbide mandrel. Lube the neck inside when running over the mandrel.

 

[JFrank]

It looks like the Nosler "fully prepped" new brass is 4 thou under bullet diameter. It could probably be expanded a couple thou before I seat.
A new piece of Nosler brass is .292" OD whereas a factory loaded Nosler cartridge is .296". Fired, it's .300" In all cases, there is that one thou of taper - on the new brass, factory cartridge, and the fired case, the first third of the neck is about 1 thou more.

If I were to use the "fully prepped" brass as-is, it looks like that would give me 4 thou of "neck tension" -- that term sort of assumes all the deformation is elastic. I suspect that a bullet is not the best mandrel and since a lot of that would actually be plastic deformation resizing, it would be better to expand the neck before seating. I'm still reluctant to expand it to .263" ID. That concerns me for loose bullets. Now suppose I run a .263" mandrel in there and it springs back to .262". I might be ok, but I can't predict how much the brass will spring or not.

A couple comments if I may..
Taper is not something I spend much time being concerned about in a no turn neck chamber. Some chambers reamers are designed with a taper.
Have you done any bullet hold testing to determine how much your particular rifle performs best with ? If not then it may be helpful to find out yours like more or less than a generic .002 dimensional difference. It just depends on the powder/combination, some like more as in my 6 mm with H4895 ( I use .004 hold )
Spring back is really a non issue and you can test this quite easily by sizing a fired case and measuring the OD with a caliper or mic at the case mouth than measure again over a period time and compare the difference if there is one.
I sized these case over two months ago with a .261 bushing.
The only time I use a mandrel is on virgin brass to even out and loosen the necks one time on stiff Lapua brass. Other than that I just size with a bushing die and push one direction with no annealing or tumbling.
I also use Wilson fl bushing dies they do not have the expander ball system.

 

[Varminterror]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to turn the necks on old-school tapered neck cartridges. Look at the 30-30. The necks taper by 3 thou. So does 35 Remington. 303 British tapers 2 thou. Not all the old ones taper, but some do. It's mostly an obsolete thing, but 416 Rigby tapers by 0.7 thou and 416 Ruger by 1.0 thou. Because the chamber's neck is also tapered, turning the neck might just blow it out resizing would fatigue the shoulder joint.

Stepping over dollars to pick up dimes here too. We push back the shoulder/neck junction ~2thou or more with every sizing, and it moves forward the same distance (and more) with every firing. The small extra clearance of uniforming the neck would be trivial, but there’s a simple reality in machining processes - reaming and forming concentric and parallel cones is much more difficult than concentric and parallel cylinders, so despite a comfortable delusion, there’s already more clearance somewhere in your neck than you want, because those tapers are almost guaranteed to NOT be parallel. Luckily, these factors are largely trivial - BUT the differentiation between sizing response, springback, and resulting bullet grip will not be trivial when it comes to consistency in ignition (also, for those playing the home game, if you send a die in for honing, it’ll come back with a parallel neck, not tapered).

But it really sounds like 1) you’re not actually shooting enough with this for it to matter, 2) it’s just a hunting rifle so, again, none of this actually matters, and 3) price is far greater concern than performance - so just buy a FL sizing die from Lee or Hornady or RCBS and live happy - if you can’t make ammo accurate enough for your task with any of these, you can’t make accurate ammo. So breathe easy, get out of the weeds, and live happy.

 

[Walkalong]

…..and 3) price is far greater concern than performance - so just buy a FL sizing die from Lee or Hornady or RCBS and live happy - if you can’t make ammo accurate enough for your task with any of these, you can’t make accurate ammo. So breathe easy, get out of the weeds, and live happy.

Yep

 

[Okie_Poke]

so just buy a FL sizing die from Lee or Hornady or RCBS and live happy - if you can’t make ammo accurate enough for your task with any of these, you can’t make accurate ammo. So breathe easy, get out of the weeds, and live happy.

Agree. Standard FL sizing dies, properly set up, work great for hunting rifles. You don't need a mandrel for even virgin brass. I generally run virgin brass through my resizer, with the expander ball, and it works just fine. If you've got pronounced neck dings, you can straighten them out enough to run through your die with a small dowel or a screw driver or somethinge else before resizing the first time. I'm sure the target guys are cringing, but it works fine in a hunting rifle.

But I have some follow up questions for folks about using mandrels. I haven't used them before but am thinking about trying one to test in a target rifle just because. I've done some looking recently, and a couple of OP's comments and questions tied into questions I also have.

It looks like the Wilson mandrel is .001 under. I have some experience where that was not enough. In my 6,5 Grendel, I needed 2 thou under or the bullets could be pushed in with finger pressure. I was getting the necks 1 thou under using a bushing only, no expander, no mandrel. I ended up using a Lee collet die to squeeze them down more. The LCD mandrel is .262" not .263"

Now I have to decide, should I get the Wilson expander or buy a more specific size from 21st Century? It looks like 21st Century also sizes them 0.0008+/-0.0002 below bullet diameter, in other words, 1 thou. Do I just trust that or order one of their 262 or 2625 mandrels? Then I'd be 2 or 1.5 thou under.

My understanding is that the Wilson mandrel, being .001" undersize, is really intended just for virgin brass and that it's not really intended for setting neck tension on fired and resized brass. Is this correct?

For setting neck tension on fired and resized cases, I've seen folks on the interwebs point to 21st Century or Sinclair mandrel dies and the mandrels that are .002" under bullet diameter. However, I see 21st Century has a host of different sizes for each caliber, in half-thousandth increments, and Cortina now offers offer mandrels .002 and .0015 under bullet diameter. I was planning to get a mandrel .002" under bullet diameter to play with, but I don't know what I don't know.

So when selecting a mandrel, which diameter do you usually start with? .002 seems like the default starting point, but is it? When would you use a .001" or .0015" undersized mandrel (or other size) and why? For this rifle, I'm currently using a Redding Type S full length bushing die with the expander ball still in it. If I remove the ball and switch to a seperate mandrel, will I need to adjust which bushing I'm using? I think my current bushing is .002 (maybe .003, I'd have to check my notes) under loaded round OD, and the expander ball is pretty light if it's touching. Would you start with a bushing a size smaller when using a mandrel? Am I way off?

 

[IWAC]

I've been using Redding S-type bushing dies to resize my brass.
I'm buying dies for a new-to-me cartridge.
I want to use a Wilson expanding mandrel and die to set the neck size before seating.

I could resize the brass in a Redding S-type bushing die, but a FL die would cost me $130 for this cartridge, plus $15 to $30 for the bushing if I get the right one the first time. I already have the carbide button for this caliber, so after all that, the mandrel doesn't add enough value for another ~$60.

But, if I could resize down a simpler way, then the mandrel would be adding quality for the additional expense.

A Redding non-bushing FL die is $55, but what will it do to my necks? Presumably, it will shrink the necks down enough that the mandrel will push them back open to a desirable dimension to seat the bullet, but what if it sets the neck ID such that the mandrel goes in and out and doesn't do any more? I'll be using Nosler brass.

The standard Redding resizing die with Carbide expander is all you need. I used one in several calibers for Decades, with no problems. Don't go making the reloading process more complicated than it needs to be!