Reloading paranoia - this time it's bullets

[ZeSpectre]

(Remember, I'm pretty new to reloading and all I've done so far are very tolerant and soft .38 special "cowboy" loads so go easy on me folks! )

So I reloaded 20 rounds of .40 S&W using the Speer manual as a guide. Then I noticed I'd used Sierra bullets (180gr JHP #8460) not Speer.

Of course then I read the whole "WARNING: data good for Speer bullets only as others may have different dimension, cause compressed loads, blow up the earth, etc. etc."

So before I go undoing all my work how serious is this warning or is it just the manufacturers playing "cover the posterior"?

(The load is .40 S&W, 6.2gr Unique, CCI 500 primer, 180gr Sierra JHP #8460 bullets)

Thanks for the help folks.

 

[CBS220]

Any time you change bullet shape or dimensions, even minutely, you will have some change in pressures and the like.

But for run of the mill loading, a Speer bullet is not much different from any other similar bullet! Just load with the appropriate data.

tl,dr; be reasonable with your loads and you're fine.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Well I'm not trying to "push the envelope", I chose what appeared to be a solidly "middle of the road" load to begin with but the dire warning in the manual caused me to stop and come here to consult.

 

[Halo]

I may have misinterpreted what you said, but I would strongly recommend starting out at the lowest powder charge in your manual and working up from there. Even if the charge you used is middle of the road of the published data, some other factors such as seating depth could produce overpressure (in spite of the powder charge being below max) and you might have little warning by starting out at that charge.

As far as using data for different brands of bullets, as long as the bullets are of the same weight, profile, and jacket material you can use the same data. Just build up your load slowly and keep the seating depth equivalent.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Mostly CYA as long as you don't mix and match bullet weights and types. As in a JHP load for a LSWC bullet of 20 more grains weight.

Jim

 

[ZeSpectre]

Even if the charge you used is middle of the road of the published data, some other factors such as seating depth could produce overpressure

See, this is exactly what is driving me nutz. If the bloody COAL is standardized how can the length of identical grain bullets be different (producing a different seating depth) and still be considered "in spec"? Or are you warning me as above to be careful about "mix n' match" with loads and bullet weights? (that part I knew).

So you have to have a different reloading manual for every damned type of bullet out there (since Speer only does loads for Speer bullets, Sierra does Sierra and so forth)? What a pain in the backside!

EDIT: To be clear. The bullet weight/style is the same for both brands (180gr JHP).

 

[Shoney]

According to my data, the 6.2 grain load is just below max. My questions to you are:
Did you just pick that load and start from there?
Or did you start the load development at some other time at the minimum setting and have worked up to this load?

 

[ZeSpectre]

My Speer book says a 180gr JHP (GDHP) rages from 6.0gr of Unique to 6.7gr.

Just double checked my notes and I loaded 6.1gr of Unique.

No previous development, this is my first set (20 rounds) of .40 S&W loads so I went from the book and loaded because I didn't know where else to start. (They'll be fired from a SIG 229 if it matters).

 

[ants]

Sometimes I think there is a 1:1 ratio between total bullets produced and total dire warnings issued by the manufacturers. Each time they stamp out a single bullet, they issue another dire warning.

That's what has ZeSpectre wondering. When do you heed the warning, and when is the warning excessive. It's a matter of good care, good judgement, and good patience.

 

[Halo]

See, this is exactly what is driving me nutz. If the bloody COAL is standardized how can the length of identical grain bullets be different (producing a different seating depth) and still be considered "in spec"? Or are you warning me as above to be careful about "mix n' match" with loads and bullet weights? (that part I knew).

That was more a general cautionary statement just to highlight that two brands of bullets of the same style and weight might still differ in seating depth even when the OAL is the same. If one of them has a less dense lead alloy core for instance, it could result in a deeper seat because that bullet is a bit longer. It's unlikely that it would ever be enough of a difference to cause problems, but if you were at a near max. charge that little bit of deeper seat could be a big deal. As long as you back off your charge when switching to a different brand bullet and work back up you should never have a problem.

 

[DWARREN123]

Should not be a problem BUT it is your choice on what to do. Myself, I would fire a couple and check the brass to make sure they were no bad signs. If middle of the load data range they should be okay.
When I do a load and do not have the exact listed components I always start at the low end and work up to a happy point but I never load to max.

 

[scrat]

And i hate to say it but good experience. Best thing to do is always ask questions always. When in doubt ask. You will find as the years go by you will have a lot less questions to ask and a lot of advice to give.

 

[VegasOPM]

To be honest, I have never worried about the manufacturer of the bullet- just the weight. I haven't had a problem, but your results may vary. When I am working up a load, I build a few and test them before making a bunch. I always put on a glove and look away for the first round. Then I look at the primer- they can tell you a lot about pressure. If the first round doesn't make the gun go boom and the primer looks okay, I start testing for accuracy and felt recoil.

 

[NotSoFast]

It seems to me the best way would be to measure the length of both the Speer and the Sierra bullets. If they are the same within 0.010", don't sweat it. If they are not, set you COL so that the Sierra is seated at the same depth as the Speer is supposed to be.

I'm going to use a 9mm here (all I have) so bear with me. i HAVE A CASE LENGTH OF 0.754" Let's say the Speer bullet is 0.562" and the Sierra is 0.549". The difference is 0.013". So I would seat the Sierra bullet 0.013" deeper. So if the Speer 115gr COL is 1.125", I would seat the Sierra at 1.112". That should give me the same volume inside the case for both bullets. The only thing left to stay aware of would be that you don't exceed the max allowable COL for your gun.

 

[bensdad]

The only safe way to handle this situation is to send all of your reloads to bensdad (that's me) for proper testing and/or disposal.

It seems to me the best way would be to measure the length of both the Speer and the Sierra bullets. If they are the same within 0.010", don't sweat it. If they are not, set you COL so that the Sierra ...

should give me the same volume inside the case for both bullets. The only thing left to stay aware of would be that you don't exceed the max allowable COL for your gun.

Wow. I've never put that much thought into it. Maybe I should, but I never have.

I saw that same warning in the Speer book. I asked a couple of people about it, and they said not to worry. Bullet wt. is the relevant factor. One of my go-to guys for reloading info. also said that the bearing surface (how much bullet is in contact with the rifling) could be a factor.

Anyway, you're way under max.

 

[ZeSpectre]

That was more a general cautionary statement just to highlight that two brands of bullets of the same style and weight might still differ in seating depth even when the OAL is the same. If one of them has a less dense lead alloy core for instance, it could result in a deeper seat because that bullet is a bit longer. It's unlikely that it would ever be enough of a difference to cause problems, but if you were at a near max. charge that little bit of deeper seat could be a big deal. As long as you back off your charge when switching to a different brand bullet and work back up you should never have a problem.

Ah, I understand, thanks for explaining that.

And to the rest of you, thanks for the advice as well! Tonight I'll fire off a couple and examine the brass and see how it goes from there.

 

[lordgroom]

The Speer manual only lists Speer Bullets. I like the Lyman 48 (havne't ordered the 49 yet) and the Lee because it offers more bullet variety.

Start at the lowest powder charge and work up incrementally to the max load. This assume you even need a max load. If you are shooting for target practice you could decide to load a less than max, hoping for decreased recoil and economy. It is not advisable to start in the middle of the minimum and maximum powder charge. Soe of the fun of reloading comes in this testing. Make this fun. You are not just trying to find the combination that cycles you action the best or the charge that doesn't blow up your gun, you are also looking for the most accurate combination.

Bullets of the same weight and same shape can use the same load data. If you have bullets of the same weight but different shape than the data you are using... things will be different. The overally length will be different, the pressure might be different, etc. In a pinch if you have a weight and shape bullet that is not in any reloading manual you can use data for a bullet of different shape which is the same weight as the one you are using. as I said, things will be different so start at the lowest charge and work up slowly.

Maximum overall length can be different due to shape. A wadcutter bullet has no taper. If driving into the rifling the very front of the bullet will make contact. If a bullet with a tapered profile is puched into the rifling the point of contact will not be at the very front of the bullet but a some point along the taper.

Hope this helps.

 

[rcmodel]

The reason Speer has cautioned so strongly is because the Gold-Dot is not a "conventional" bullet.

The Gold-Dot's are made by plating copper onto the lead core. So it is a plated bullet, not a conventional jacketed bullet like the Sierra.

rcmodel

 

[Walkalong]

Speer shows data for generic XX gr XX caliber bullets, and then has Gold Dot data seperately.

Like rcmodel said, it's jacket is quite different from most conventional bullets so they show seperate data. Usually lower charges.

You can mix and match similar conventional jacketed bullets of similar syles of the same weight pretty much all you want, unless you are at or near max.

It seems to me the best way would be to measure the length of both the Speer and the Sierra bullets. If they are the same within 0.010", don't sweat it.

Not necssarily true, but now we are getting into "Mind F***** it" territory. Don't over think it..

 

[Halo]

On a somewhat separate tangent, how do the Gold Dots avoid the velocity problems normally associated with plated bullets? Is it because they use plating so thick it is almost like a conventional jacket?

I know the conventional wisdom is that plated bullets shouldn't be pushed as fast as jacketed bullets, but of course we see Gold Dots frequently exceeding 1300 fps. How do they manage this?

 

[Walkalong]

Many normal plated bullets have been pushed to 1300+ with no problems, even though the makers usually say 1200 or less.

The Speer bullets are more thickly plated, and, I believe I read this, use a harder lead core than regular plated bullets.

 

[ranger335v]

"...this is exactly what is driving me nutz. If the bloody COAL is standardized"

It isn't. Confirm that by looking at the OAL of cartridges with same weight bullets in any number of manuals and note the differences. The only "standardization" the book values have is that it's the length they used to develop their data. There's No point in getting too anal about a COAL.


"... how can the length of identical grain bullets be different (producing a different seating depth) and still be considered "in spec"? "

YOU are the final determinator of what seating depth you should obtain, not a book. Find what you and YOUR rifle/pistol needs to chamber and feed reliably and develop your load from that length.

 

[RustyFN]

I know these are rifle bullets and you are loading pistol but this is the only example I have. Not all bullets are created equal. Below are two bullets that are .224 and both are 55 grain. You don't want to work up a load for the shortest bullet and then just substitute the longer one. Both need to start low and work up.
Rusty

 

[buck460XVR]

Speer shows data for generic XX gr XX caliber bullets, and then has Gold Dot data seperately.

Like rcmodel said, it's jacket is quite different from most conventional bullets so they show seperate data. Usually lower charges.

That's funny........... in the latest edition of the Speer reloading manual, it list the exact same loads for their 158gr. Gold Dot as for their 158gr jacketed SPs, HPs and FMJs.......and the loads for the 158gr XTP listed in the Hornady manual are within the same parameters as the Speer Manual for their 158s. Only difference is the .005 difference in COAL. I load many 158gr Gold Dots with the same loads as JSPs and XTPs and see no major differences in recoil or accuracy......at least not outta my 686.......but then again I'm not loading to max.

 

[rcmodel]

For a while there at least, Speer included a load data slip in every box of Gold-Dot bullets. It was somewhat different, (and higher) then the data they published in the #13 manual.

There, it looks like they rounded off to the lowest common denominator and lumped them all together.

rcmodel