Reloading question, matching factory ammo, and more

[mikemyers]

The relative I've been helping with his Dillon press has two 38 Special guns, a Ruger revolver that shoots anything, and an S&W Model 52 that is very picky about the bullets - if the lead in the bullet protrudes the slightest bit beyond the case, the bullet won't feed properly. I helped him get the Dillon press set up for the Ruger ammo, and next was the Model 52.

The only ammo that he could buy that works properly in the gun is "MagTech 148g LWC. We wanted to replicate that ammunition reloading with his Dillon, and bought Hornady 148 grain HBWC bullets. The cases are a mix of CBC and GFL. The powder was Unique, starting at 2.4 grain, the lowest load in the Hornady reloading manual for that bullet.


I'm learning more about how the Dillon works, as we were able to set the press up to do what we thought was right (using the RCBS hand primer loader). That was last night.

This morning we went to try out the 10 test bullets we made. I shot first, and there was a VERY small amount of recoil, and at 10 yards I eventually ended up with a nice 1 1/2" group. The problem though, was that none of the ten shells ejected from the gun. When he shot, I watched the slide, and it sure didn't look like it moved back very far... but I can't be sure.


Trying to play "bullet detective", based on what I think I know, I'd say either the slide return spring is too stiff for those bullets, or the bullets we made didn't have enough power to properly get the slide to cycle.


Since then, what I think I understand is that his factory ammo says on the box that the bullet speed is 800 fps. From the Hornady reloading manual, the bullets we made are supposed to be only 550 fps, much slower. That fits my guess as to what is going on.


If we don't want to change the spring, if I'm right so far, we need to make the bullets more powerful. The strongest charge for Unique gets up to 750 fps, and for a bit more, we could buy the Universal powder, which gets up to 800.


I think I want to suggest to him that he increase the powder weight, as per the Hornady book, to get 600 fps, then 650, then 700, but no more. He is new to reloading, and I don't feel comfortable asking him to try the maximum allowable charge using Unique.


Maybe someone here with much more experience can suggest what we should do next, or is my suggested plan reasonable?



(Also, am I right to think that bullet speed is a good way to compare the same bullet coming from our Hornady reloads, compared to MagTech factory loads? I think that's logical, but..... )


...........for more information on a S&W Model 52:
http://gunsmagazine.com/smith-wessons-model-52-38-master/

 

[WestKentucky]

I wasn't familiar with the 52 and had to look it up. Neat gun. 38 spl automatics are a rare bird. Per the site I found it on, it was intended to be shot using wadcutters or semiwadcutters. Looks like your gonna have to seat em deep. As for making the slide function, your going to have to increase your powder charge slowly until it functions reliably. Good luck.

 

[Archie]

I have a Model 52 (and just to show off, a Colt Gold Cup ALSO in .38 Special). I load for them. Additionally, I have and load for a number of .38 Special revolvers.

Loading wadcutters, I load to make the two autoloaders work, then use that ammunition in the revolvers as well. I see no point in loading more than one 'load' for .38 Special wadcutter.

So. As you are aware, the bullets have to be seated flush with the mouth of the case. Otherwise, they won't function through the magazine properly. (I had been loading wadcutters for revolvers for years when I obtained the autopistols. I had always loaded them with a 'sliver' of bullet showing at the case mouth. I can sum the experience in one word - "ARRRGGGGHHHHH!"

I suggest using either Bullseye, Clays or some other very fast powder for this round. I believe the 'quick' burning rate gives a faster push to the slide and therefore enables function at a lower maximum pressure and velocity than a slower powder. (Unique is - for pistols - more or less a 'medium' burn rate powder.) Unique gives good accuracy and excellent velocities, but as you noted, it doesn't always operate the action. It CAN, I am told, but it is a more delicate balance in my mind.

My .38 Special autopistols shoot very well with the Hornady 148 grain hollow based wadcutter and a fairly light dose of Clays or Bullseye. Check loading manual and start at the bottom charge. Usually that works. Work up by small increments to get positive function and no more. Don't worry about velocity - except to make sure the bullet gets all the way down to the target and then penetrates the paper.

 

[mikemyers]

'Archie' -- thanks!! I did know about the burn rate, but didn't know the implications. What you wrote makes sense. So does what you wrote about making one load for the different guns. I've got my S&W 357 Highway Patrolman that I want to start using again. Maybe I'll make the same load you're suggesting for myself as well, so I can try it out at my home.

I need to read up on the differences between Unique and Bullseye (if that's what we get). I understand why it's maybe going to work better in an autoloader, but how would the two powders compare in a revolver? ......but that's way off in the future. Right now I'd just like to help get my relative up and going. We are so close.....

 

[Rule3]

The ammo to copy if you will, is the Remington 38 special HBWC Target

But is impossible to find. I use the Hornady bullets and they work just as well.

Here is a thread on the M 52. The bullets need to be flush with just a very slight roll over crimp on the edge of the case mouth.

As much as I hate trimming, the brass all needs to be trimmed to the trim to length and use all the same headstamp brass, The gun is fussy but when done correctly it will make one hole groups!

I can not help you on the Dillion


http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/102788-model-52-loads.html

 

[Mad Chemist]

2.4gr of Unique will not build enough pressure to cycle the slide. I expect that the cases are very "smutty" at that low of a charge.

Try Bullseye, 231/HP-38, AA#2, N320, Red Dot or some other powder with a faster burn rate than unique. If Unique is all you have you will need to bump the charge up considerably.

 

[mikemyers]

2.4gr of Unique will not build enough pressure to cycle the slide. I expect that the cases are very "smutty" at that low of a charge.

Try Bullseye, 231/HP-38, AA#2, N320, Red Dot or some other powder with a faster burn rate than unique. If Unique is all you have you will need to bump the charge up considerably.

Not knowing better, and having the bullets and powder at hand, it seemed like a logical choice to start with the minimum load of Unique, and work up. I understand what you wrote and meant, and will follow your advice (although I won't be back with my relative until February, so he is somewhat on his own).

Is there some kind of "identifying number" that defines "burn rate", or is just a matter of talking to lots of people who've been doing this for years? Or, put differently, how would I have known that Unique probably wouldn't be a good choice, simply by looking at the load data?

Last question - if he/we gradually increase the amount of Unique powder, are we likely to find a load that "will work" without getting too close to the maximum?

 

[moxie]

The Speer book has a separate table for 148 HBWC in the Mod. 52. Unique is not listed as a recommended powder.

I'd go with Bullseye. The classic load of 2.8-3.0 grs. Bullseye will work just fine in the 52, and also in your Highway Patrolman.

Seat flush with the case mouth of course. I'd try not roll crimping, just remove the "flare." If you have feeding issues, go ahead and roll crimp a tad.

 

[ku4hx]

Is there some kind of "identifying number" that defines "burn rate", or is just a matter of talking to lots of people who've been doing this for years?

Relative burn rates: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2014-2015.pdf

 

[Rule3]

If you want to load specifically for the M 52, than BE or HP 38 have proven to be the powder over the years. No need to reinvent the wheel You want faster powder than Unique, maybe one of the Dot Powders will work also,

 

[Ifishsum]

RE burn rate charts - keep in mind that they are relative, the number of a powder does not mean anything but to designate the order of the list (relative to the other powders). So #8 on the list means nothing other than it is faster than #9 and slower than #7. Nothing about how much faster or slower it may be.

Bullseye would be a wonderful choice for what you wish to do IMO, as would several other powders faster than Unique.

 

[gamestalker]

Even though I own my share of them, I'm not much for AL's, but I would kill to get my hands on an M-52. I would be in 38 spcl. hog heaven developing and shooting loads in that pistol.

About all I recommend is seat them where it likes them Mike. Have you tried any jacketed yet? That gun would be a hoot to load for, wish I was near by to get in on that operation.

GS

 

[mikemyers]

Nope, I haven't tried anything other than firing off a few rounds. It's not my gun, but the more I get involved, the more I'd like to buy one.

My relative just wants it to shoot, and isn't interested in "working up" loads. I'm in between. If I had one, I'd enjoy working up a load and finding out what works best for me.

Remember when Cunard Lines (ocean liners) used to say "Getting there is half the fun!"? Very true for me.

 

[reddog81]

Re: "Last question - if he/we gradually increase the amount of Unique powder, are we likely to find a load that "will work" without getting too close to the maximum?"

Proabably - you should be able to find something that works without going over a max load. With 2.4 grains of unique in a 38 special case I'd be more worried about a stuck bullet than an over charge. Even if you have to go up to near max loads to get the gun to function I wouldn't be too worried about it.

 

[mikemyers]

.......With 2.4 grains of unique in a 38 special case I'd be more worried about a stuck bullet than an over charge........

If you were using Hornady bullets, Unique powder, and were following the information found in the Hornady reloading handbook,doing everything carefully, why might you be worried about a "stuck bullet"?

 

[reddog81]

Sorry for the confusion. I'm sure there is 0% chance of a stuck bullet.

It is such a light load I'd be MORE worried about a stuck bullet than too much pressure, however if loaded correctly neither scenario will exist.

light target loads of 38 special even at the max loads aren't very powerful by design. Very accurate and effective at their intended purpose, but not going to blow up a gun. I'd focus on getting a load that cycles 100% of the time rather than be worried about over pressure - assuming you're not over maximum load data.

 

[Sam1911]

Sounds like folks have you going in the right direction.

I do think that if you stick with Unique and push the charges up more toward the upper end of the load data you will find a range of charge weights that cycles the gun perfectly. You don't have to match the factory ammo speed to get the gun to work, but you'll have to get a lot closer than you are now.

And yes, you may find that it is easier to stay in the middle-of-the-road with the load if you change to a faster powder. Personally, I tend to --very generally speaking-- find better accuracy and consistency with loads somewhat near the top end of load data in handguns.

But that 52 is a dedicated target gun and really getting out of it all it can give you will take experimentation to find exactly the load it prefers.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks.... in this case, I'm more worried about the reloader, not the reload. He's new to reloading, and if he goes ahead with any more while I'm not around, it will be the first time he's done so.

I really would prefer he only have one powder available. KISS. He has already de-primed live primers four times, and somehow got two bullets into one case.

My advice was to start with a single station press, but he was in love with the Dillon, so that's what he's got.

My main goal is to minimize the chances of anything going wrong.

His main goal is to simply start turning out bullets that work perfectly in his '52. He has little interest in the "how", but he is getting very good at weighing the powder charge every few rounds.

 

[Sam1911]

I really would prefer he only have one powder available. KISS

Understood. Why not try pushing up the charge weight of Unique until you have an accurate load that cycles the gun vigorously? Shouldn't be hard to do, and then he's got something that works and he can stick to forever.

He has already de-primed live primers four times,

LOL. Generally not a problem, but he's obviously a bit ham-fisted.

and somehow got two bullets into one case.

Ok, REALLY ham-fisted. Needs to stop and look at each station before each pull of the press and get an idea of EXACTLY what's going to happen next at each station when he pulls that handle. It isn't rocket science...but he sounds like he's not a rocket scientist...

My advice was to start with a single station press, but he was in love with the Dillon, so that's what he's got.

Not the end of the world. Starting with a progressive just takes a very slow, deliberate, focused approach, learning to pay attention carefully to four or five things at a time. If he can get in a rhythm of "check 1, check 2, check 3, check 4, PULL, rotate...check 1, check 2..." he'll do fine.

My main goal is to minimize the chances of anything going wrong.

Yeah...wow.

His main goal is to simply start turning out bullets that work perfectly in his '52. He has little interest in the "how", but he is getting very good at weighing the powder charge every few rounds.

That's good, to start out. Not really necessary as the process starts to hum along smoothly, but starting out (each time) that's vital. If he can do that, he can learn the pattern of looking and checking that will make this go well.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks; your first suggestion is what's supposed to happen, little by little, but I predict everything will be in the same spot on the workbench as when I left, when i visit in February.



I'm not perfect by any means either.... but I'm doing so many checks as i load bullets that I hope I've minimized the chances of something going wrong. Here's my check-list, and I do check off each step as I reload. If I get interrupted while reloading, I know exactly where I left off:

RELOADING CHECK LIST
initial check for damaged cases y
clean in tumbler y
empty tumbler debris, re-check cases y
lubricate y
size/deprime y
remove reloading grease y
expand case end y
insert primer y
add powder after checking weight y
visual check of powder levels in all casesy
press in bullet y
crimp y


I think I'll make a similar list for my relative, but since it's progressive, it will be a list of what to do each time he is ready to pull the lever.

.....yuck. The table I made actually looks like a table when I entered it, but the forum software re-formats it. Oh well....

 

[gamestalker]

In this case, and assuming the firearm is in good condition, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to run some jacketed +P Longshot loads in that M52. IMO and IME, it's pretty difficult to get into trouble with Longshot when being used in +P 38 spcl. applications.

GS