I loaded up 250 rounds of 185 grain JSWC over 4.8-5 grains of bullseye and it shot low by about 5-7 inches. I thought it was me at first, but when I shot factory 230 grain bullets I hit POA at 20 yards. I traded 1911's with a friend and it hit POA. The group with my 1911 was consistently low, but very nice (9 rounds in a group the size of the palm of your hand. Any ideas why the 185 grain JSWC would shoot so low? I guesstimated the velocity at about 800 fps with that loading, but don't have a chronograph.
reloads shooting low
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The Lone Haranguer
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That does seem like an awful lot, but in general, lighter bullets do shoot lower, due to less muzzle rise during the time the bullet is transiting the barrel. If you were shooting freehand, you may find there is less disparity if you shot off a rest.
dagger dog
Member
Lighter bullets will always print lower in a handgun, less recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel, heavier bullets print higher the reoil causes the barell to jump higher by trying to pivot around the point of recoil resistance (your hand), it takes more force to move the heavier bullet and it stays in the barrel longer, the oppisite for light bullets.
The effect is called barrel jump.
The effect is called barrel jump.
chris in va
Member
Basically the lighter bullet leaves the barrel sooner before it has a chance to rise from the recoil. The sights are probably set up for the standard 230 grainers.
Lost Sheep
Member
Thanks for asking our advice.
My first thought is the same as the other respondents, but I am left with the question above.
4.8 grains seems a bit light. My copy of Lee's manual recommends 5.9 to 6.7 grains with a maximum velocity of 996 fps. If you up the charge you may find they print even lower. It would be interesting to use a chronograph and reate point of impact to velocity and bullet weight.
Lost Sheep
Does this mean that your friend's 1911 in your hands shooting the 185 grain bullets shot to point of aim? Where does the same gun in your hands with the 230 grain loads shoot, relative to the 185s?
My first thought is the same as the other respondents, but I am left with the question above.
4.8 grains seems a bit light. My copy of Lee's manual recommends 5.9 to 6.7 grains with a maximum velocity of 996 fps. If you up the charge you may find they print even lower. It would be interesting to use a chronograph and reate point of impact to velocity and bullet weight.
Lost Sheep
It was my hands using his RIA tactical model with full length railed dust cover versus my Springfield GI with aftermarket meprolight sights.
The barrel jump is an interesting notion. I suspected they wouldn't shoot to the same impact as a 230 grain bullet, but I didn't think they would be this off at 20 yards maximum range. I got a good deal on the JSWC (65 for 1000) and wanted to make range fodder to practice self-defense skills. I was shooting at 9 inch paper plates in a "tactical" setup, not bullseye shooting. I had shot his XD 40 a little in the same scenario and was hitting near about perfect, so I don't think it was me.
My Lee loads say 5.6-6.0 grains of Bullseye with a 185 XTP and a min OAL of 1.200 for 986 fps. My Lyman 49th edition says 3.5-5.6 grains of Bullseye with a min OAL of 1.135 for 678-975 fps. My loads are 1.155-1.165 (the longest I can get to load properly) with a slight crimp.
Any ideas how to compensate for this bullet drop with non-adjustable sights, or suggestions for a better load for the 185's?
The barrel jump is an interesting notion. I suspected they wouldn't shoot to the same impact as a 230 grain bullet, but I didn't think they would be this off at 20 yards maximum range. I got a good deal on the JSWC (65 for 1000) and wanted to make range fodder to practice self-defense skills. I was shooting at 9 inch paper plates in a "tactical" setup, not bullseye shooting. I had shot his XD 40 a little in the same scenario and was hitting near about perfect, so I don't think it was me.
My Lee loads say 5.6-6.0 grains of Bullseye with a 185 XTP and a min OAL of 1.200 for 986 fps. My Lyman 49th edition says 3.5-5.6 grains of Bullseye with a min OAL of 1.135 for 678-975 fps. My loads are 1.155-1.165 (the longest I can get to load properly) with a slight crimp.
Any ideas how to compensate for this bullet drop with non-adjustable sights, or suggestions for a better load for the 185's?
gamestalker
member
Another perspective on this is harmonics that are realized as sound waves. A load that is shooting sub sonic velocities will allow the sound waves to have an effect on the entire firearm before the bullet leaves the barrel. In effect, this is really the same thing everyone else is saying about recoil effecting the POI, because it is happening before the bullet leaves the barrel. But the only real reason the lighter bullets have a lower POI is simply because they are getting out of the barrel before the effect of the waves (harmonics) can distort the barrel/firearm, not because they are heavier.
Yes, because they are heavier they do create more recoil, but that wouldn't matter if they could exit the barrel at super sonic velocity, or approximately 1000 fps, depending on the atmospheric conditions. And even this perspective is some what flawed in that how quickly the bullet reaches super sonic velocity is also a factor. Each powder produces a different pressure curve which in turn propels the bullet form zero to it's achieved speed, at different rates of gain. An example would be two dragster's crossing the finish line at different speeds, but they cross the finish line at the same time. Or one will not reach the finish line first, yet that car will have a higher rate of speed to the finish line. So the pressure curve is what really matters when trying to beat the harmonics to the end of the barrel. Usually the slower burning powders are the best performers in this respect, and IMR-4350 is deffinitely among those.
Yes, because they are heavier they do create more recoil, but that wouldn't matter if they could exit the barrel at super sonic velocity, or approximately 1000 fps, depending on the atmospheric conditions. And even this perspective is some what flawed in that how quickly the bullet reaches super sonic velocity is also a factor. Each powder produces a different pressure curve which in turn propels the bullet form zero to it's achieved speed, at different rates of gain. An example would be two dragster's crossing the finish line at different speeds, but they cross the finish line at the same time. Or one will not reach the finish line first, yet that car will have a higher rate of speed to the finish line. So the pressure curve is what really matters when trying to beat the harmonics to the end of the barrel. Usually the slower burning powders are the best performers in this respect, and IMR-4350 is deffinitely among those.
Lost Sheep
Member
Really?
I always thought the actual direction the bullet was traveling when it left the barrel had the most effect on the point of impact.
The barrel rise being discussed is the recoil-induced movement that took place before the bullet left the barrel which, in turn, is related to the amount of time the bullet stayed in the barrel.
Longer barrel transit time, greater rise.
Lower velocity, longer transit time (or barrel dwell - thanks buck460XVR, post #11).
Heavier bullet, lower velocity.
All these suggest higher POI with heavier bullets unless you are talking about the impact at longer distances, where the bullet drop (trajectory) is more of a factor.
At some point, the two POIs will be the same (where the two trajectories cross each other's paths, as the slower bullet does drop faster), but at a farther distance than 20 yards.
Experimental results seem to agree with this assessment.
Aside from that, I don't think distortion of the barrel makes as much difference as you think. An inch or two at 100 yards, sure. But 6" at 20 yards?
I am willing to be proven wrong, with evidence.
Lost Sheep
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P-32
Member
Yeah, it’s called Kentucky windage.
A friend of mine could knock over a steel Ram at 500 meters by holding over with his 1911. I could only shake my head. One shot, one Ram about 85% of the time.
I use that when shooting a .22 pistol a longer ranges, but ask this question: will that ruin me for self-defense training? Are there any loads in 185 tgrains that simulate more or less the POI of 230 grains bullets? I ask because money is tight, and I cannot go get another 1000 until I use these up.
buck460XVR
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..or barrel dwell. It is really apparent in my long pipe .460, with 200 grainers hitting about 12'' lower @ 50 yards than 300 grainers. It is also why many handguns with fixed sights are regulated for a particular bullet weight.
1SOW
Member
Try upping your load in two .3gr steps. I know-I know, try it anyway. Recoil will increase and the bullet will leave the barrel faster. Your handling of the recoil may make a difference.
popper:
Well, there you have it.
Not many powders with a faster burn rate than BE though.
Any suggestions??
IlikeSA:
...flip a coin.
Still, if it were me, I'd try HP-38/W231 or Unique.
But what do I know, just some guy on the internet.
Tilos
Well, there you have it.
Not many powders with a faster burn rate than BE though.
Any suggestions??
IlikeSA:
...flip a coin.
Still, if it were me, I'd try HP-38/W231 or Unique.
But what do I know, just some guy on the internet.
Tilos
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Lost Sheep
Member
Tilos, Popper,
Sounds like we all have to chip in to buy IlikeSA a chronograph and 1 pound each of a fast, medium and slow powder
so he can work up loads with identical velocites with each of the powders and let us know definitively if powder quickness affects POI and in which direction.Ballistics is, after all, an experimental science.
(Try it wih a short barrel. Try it with a long barrel. Try it with a semi-auto. Try it with a single-shot or revolver.
The results might vary.
)I have heard that changing velocity will change the POI because of barrel rise and bullet dwell time/transit time, but never proved it and the idea that powder quickness might affect the results is intriquing.
I would enjoy hearing from anyone who has actually performed the experiment.
Lost Sheep
bluetopper
Member
That's why we have adjustable sights.
1SOW
Member
Lost Sheep, I recently worked on building a SD load for my 9mm 3.6" bbl Sig 239.
I have used a 125 gr JHP "target" bullet loaded light (1030-ish FPS) that shot close to POA using 3.9 grs Vit n320--a moderately fast powder.
I loaded it with a "slower" powder and worked up to(5.8 grs Vit n340) using a CE chrono to get 1165-ish FPS.
At lighter loads, it shot over 3" inches low at 10 yards using a rest. As I upped the charge, the groups slowly moved up to about 2" low at max charge. All "groups" were tight (minus two flyers). Recoil was mild, more push than snap.
I also fired 5 rds at max load standing with the same results.
Scientific? Nope. What did I learn? Confusion because I expected it to shoot high.
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Lost Sheep
Member
Interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Middleweight bullet. Semi-auto, relatively short barrel. 3" low at 10 yards
Same weight bullet, same gun, slower powder, nearly the same velocity (a little higher), same POI, 3" low.
Same bullet same gun, slower powder, higher velocity, POI moved up to 2" low.
Slow powder, higher charge, POI moves up. (Counter to what I would have thought)
I wonder if the same powder charge/velocity change using a faster powder would also move the POI up?
OK, now I am officially confused.
Again, thanks for sharing. I will chew on this for a while.
Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep:
Sounds complicated, what you said, the point of impact on the the target is all I need to find out, as long as the gun functions and I'm within published limits.
My experience with a short barreled gun that was shooting HIGH at 7 yards, switched to a faster powder and point of impact was lower, and at point of aim.
Sounds complicated, what you said, the point of impact on the the target is all I need to find out, as long as the gun functions and I'm within published limits.
My experience with a short barreled gun that was shooting HIGH at 7 yards, switched to a faster powder and point of impact was lower, and at point of aim.
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
Just aim higher and your POI will change and no, it won't mess up your "self-defense training". Everyone who has a handgun with fixed sights has to change their POA when using a different bullet weight than was used when the gun was sighted in at the factory.
As for using a different load with that bullet, that won't help either. You are already shooting a light load so you can't go lighter and if you increase the velocity of a bullet it will normally shoot lower so that won't help either. Just make the adjustment on your POA, it will make you a better shooter... (This is why you must practice with the ammo you will carry. Know your gun and where your ammo will hit.)
Wow, I've been wasting my time and money for years.Thanks for sharing this info, it's life changing for me
Tilos
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