Remington 1187! Why does it seem that this shotgun gets no respect?
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chas08
Member
I have an 1187 Supermag that I prefer over the benelli sbe1 that I owned before it. It has a self metering gas system that vents excess gas pressure.
My supermag also has a barrel seal activator that, when installed, allows the use of the lightest loads. I've tested this down to 1oz 3dram loads. Which my former benelli would not cycle.
Slugs are fine in them, you might want to start with an I/C or Cyl bore choke tube and see which one shoots best. Mine is primarily my backup Goose gun/Duck gun. And though I've never needed it to take the place of my 1100 or SP-10. I have hunted with it, and I have no complaints at this time.
My supermag also has a barrel seal activator that, when installed, allows the use of the lightest loads. I've tested this down to 1oz 3dram loads. Which my former benelli would not cycle.
Slugs are fine in them, you might want to start with an I/C or Cyl bore choke tube and see which one shoots best. Mine is primarily my backup Goose gun/Duck gun. And though I've never needed it to take the place of my 1100 or SP-10. I have hunted with it, and I have no complaints at this time.
The Remington 11/87 doesn't get respect because the design is dated and there are better performing guns on the market. The Benelli and the Remington use two different systems -- gas operation versus recoil -- so it's not a completely fair comparison.
But when put up against gas-operated guns such as the Beretta or Browning the weaknesses of the design and production of the Remington become readily apparent.
But when put up against gas-operated guns such as the Beretta or Browning the weaknesses of the design and production of the Remington become readily apparent.
To add to what PJR said, Remington also quit making the nicer ones, and now produces 870-Express-quality, heavy, rough versions of the things.
Mossberg makes a better semiauto, with less excess weight, nicer fit and finish, and a modern gas system, for a dramatically lower price than the rough, outdated Remingtons.
Mossberg makes a better semiauto, with less excess weight, nicer fit and finish, and a modern gas system, for a dramatically lower price than the rough, outdated Remingtons.
earlthegoat2
Member
To add to what ArmedBear said:
To clarify his first statment, Remington no longer makes 1187s in the Premeir grade. They are only made in parkerized/matte blue and the stocks are laminate crap or synthetic without a nice finish at all. Many older 1100s had shiny bluing and nicer wood.
It has become fashionable these days for shotguns to take on the qualitys of the M16 rifle and put as much black coloring and plastic on as possible. I greatly prefer cut checkering and a wood stock and will pay more for it. Call be a snob.
And with Remington, they no longer finish the internals of their guns as nicely either. Many sharp jagged edges that were never cleaned up after machining are just a few examples.
The moral of the story is to not buy a new Remington if you can help it and go the Brownchester or Beretta route. As was said earlier, it is not fair to make an accurate comparison with the Benellis since they are a different system but that is another option as well. They are a different animal and one I wish would just disappear entirely.
To clarify his first statment, Remington no longer makes 1187s in the Premeir grade. They are only made in parkerized/matte blue and the stocks are laminate crap or synthetic without a nice finish at all. Many older 1100s had shiny bluing and nicer wood.
It has become fashionable these days for shotguns to take on the qualitys of the M16 rifle and put as much black coloring and plastic on as possible. I greatly prefer cut checkering and a wood stock and will pay more for it. Call be a snob.
And with Remington, they no longer finish the internals of their guns as nicely either. Many sharp jagged edges that were never cleaned up after machining are just a few examples.
The moral of the story is to not buy a new Remington if you can help it and go the Brownchester or Beretta route. As was said earlier, it is not fair to make an accurate comparison with the Benellis since they are a different system but that is another option as well. They are a different animal and one I wish would just disappear entirely.
JohnBT
Member
The 11-87 started off with a handicap, many people (like me) thought it balanced and handled poorly when compared to the gun it was supposed to replace - the 1100.
John
John
I have a couple of matte black "Wal-Mart Beretta" 390s, and they have a completely different finish. The Express/Sportsman finish is rust-prone and rough like sandpaper if you bump it against anything. That's not Parkerizing; it's crap. The Beretta has a rust-resistant, durable, matte but smooth finish, and sells for LESS than the 11-87s next to it, despite the 11-87 being inferior across the board (design, function, balance, fit and finish). As an added bonus, all of Remington's competitors, including those that cost less, have a shim system to let you tweak stock fit. It's become an expected basic feature of a semiauto. Remington doesn't have it.
earlthegoat2
Member
Absolutely. I said it was parkerized above but I dont really know what else to call it. You summed it up nicely. Crap.
I have heard of seasoning parkerized guns in the oven much like the way you would a cast iron skillet by wiping oil on it and baking it for a while at low temerature. I think this is what needs to be done with Express finished metal. If any moisture gets on it and you dont take an oily rag to it you will get rust spots within 24 hours.
chas08
Member
For the record. I wasn't comparing systems. I was just stating MY preference, having owned both.
The benelli let me down twice with broken parts in the field. I have shot the beretta 391 that a friend owns. I didn't care for it. I didn't like the shape of the stock or the really long foregrip. Or that a magazine cap with a swivel stud costs about $70. I've also helped him look for his charging handle, to no avail, that flew out of it while shooting doves.
As for weakness of design being apparent, I fail to see it. The 1100 and 1187 that I own, both do what I bought them for. And so far have without fail. The sweet part was that their combined purchase price, used in excellent condition, was less than the failure prone benelli new.
The design is weak because of the dependence on little rubber o-rings to operate. Having had two broken action bars on Remington 1100s and seen first hand the cheap tin pot metal Remington is using to make them I prefer a more dependable and better made shotgun.
But you are right about the Remington products being less expensive. They are that way for a reason.
But you are right about the Remington products being less expensive. They are that way for a reason.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
YEP. I grew up with a 1100, started shooting one when I was a kid. I have still to date put more rounds through my dads 1100's than I have every other shotgun I have shot in my life. I was disappointed in the 1187, I feel the 1100 was much better handling, better made, and just better in general. I know a lot of people that still look for the old 1100's every time they go in a pawn shop, they are a classic.
I now have a Beretta A391 (Xtrema) and it is a dang fine gun. I like it almost as much as the old 1100's, but it is superior because it is so versatile.
chas08
Member
Yes it's called "Performance Worth the Price"
I'm curious as to how many thousands of rounds it took to break those action bars?
The 1100 that I owned for 25 years before I foolishly sold it to "upgrade" to a benelli, never gave me any problems whatsoever.
As for O-rings, I've never had one fail. My old 1100 (new in "72) would cycle Duck loads without an O-ring. I purposely took it out just to see if it would, and it did. The one I have now I've never tried it with. The person I bought it from said his late father bought it new in '89 or '90.
The 1187 Supermag I have is an early one also. It has very nice satin finished walnut furniture. An almost brownish matte finish that has never offered to rust. (But, I'm anal about keeping my guns wiped clean.) And a stainless magazine tube. It has "Special Purpose" on the reciever. I don't know if it came this way from Remington or if the previous owner did some customizing.
Of the two, I like the 1100 the best. It just feels better. I am no longer willing to spend more money trying to improve on whats working just fine.
That's a fair point. Low price often equals low performance.
As for the action bars I don't know the round count as the gun came to me used. The second set of action bars was under 500 rounds. Here's a picture of the second set to show the problem. On the first set the break was similar but larger.
I've owned an 1100, an 11-87, a Beretta 390 and a 391. I will pay for value and performance and not waste money on what I have experienced from lesser priced guns.
chas08
Member
Yep, and easier to live with( for me anyway) than poor performance at a high price. Like my benelli. Especially since those poor decrepit pieces of antiquated junk are still running fine.
I've seen those pictures on this forum before. Did you ever figure out what caused it? It is a rather uncommon failure or the forums would be full of incidences of it happening. Like the rough chamber issues in the 870 express models.
Maybe you got one that had been frankensteined by someone trying to make it do something it wasn't intended to do. Such as shoot extremely light loads by over sizing the gas ports.
I'm sure my benelli issues with broken firing pins wasn't a common issue. But it was enough to make me think ill of them forever. And then theres always the posibility that most folks wouldn't want to admit that their $1500 shotgun was a POS. Our local Cabelas has a lot more used benellis for sale than 1100's and 1187's combined. And oddly enough, they are almost all sbe's.
Benelli recommends shooting two flats of magnums through the gun when you get it, to break in the mechanism.
I, personally, find that to be stupid. I shouldn't have to do that. With a Beretta, I don't have to.
However, I don't think I've known anyone who actually DID that, and still had any trouble with the gun.
WRT the 1100, I helped fix one. Then I sold mine. No thanks. I know what's in them, now. The 390/1 is just a much nicer machine on every level, and at Wal-Mart, the 390 costs less, balances a lot better, weighs less, and works better than the 11-87 Sportsman POS next to it does.
The 1100 design (11-87 is the same, plus a gas valve) was quite creative when it was new, a half-century ago. It was revolutionary, when Remington made a relatively cheap semiauto, mostly out of stamped parts, and it worked. It handled well, too, though it was heavy. However, Remington's competitors didn't sit on their hands for 50 years, so they now make much better guns. Remington makes the same old guns, for higher prices.
I, personally, find that to be stupid. I shouldn't have to do that. With a Beretta, I don't have to.
However, I don't think I've known anyone who actually DID that, and still had any trouble with the gun.
WRT the 1100, I helped fix one. Then I sold mine. No thanks. I know what's in them, now. The 390/1 is just a much nicer machine on every level, and at Wal-Mart, the 390 costs less, balances a lot better, weighs less, and works better than the 11-87 Sportsman POS next to it does.
The 1100 design (11-87 is the same, plus a gas valve) was quite creative when it was new, a half-century ago. It was revolutionary, when Remington made a relatively cheap semiauto, mostly out of stamped parts, and it worked. It handled well, too, though it was heavy. However, Remington's competitors didn't sit on their hands for 50 years, so they now make much better guns. Remington makes the same old guns, for higher prices.
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chas08
Member
Then thats whats right for you. Best wishes, I'll still never be convinced of total superiority because, like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.
I do concurr that the 1187 Sportsman is a POS in fit and finish. Comparing it to mine is like comparing a Wingmaster to an Express.
chas08, I couldn't care less what you shoot. However, the differences are quite real, and things like quality of design and construction are not imaginary, nor subjective.
The gas system, the magazine tube, the buttstock attachment, the internal construction, the trigger's ergonomics and quality, the way that parts are made, are all things that can be compared, and I have.
A 1971 VW is quaint, and offered a lot of function for the money in its day. However, if someone tells you that, in terms of design, construction, fit and finish, that it's the equal of a 1971 Benz, he doesn't know what he's talking about. You might LIKE the bug better, but that's not the point.
Now the 11-87 might be okay when compared with a $1500 shotgun, since the 11-87 is so much cheaper. But as long as the local Wal-Mart has brand-new 390s for $100 less than the 11-87...
The gas system, the magazine tube, the buttstock attachment, the internal construction, the trigger's ergonomics and quality, the way that parts are made, are all things that can be compared, and I have.
A 1971 VW is quaint, and offered a lot of function for the money in its day. However, if someone tells you that, in terms of design, construction, fit and finish, that it's the equal of a 1971 Benz, he doesn't know what he's talking about. You might LIKE the bug better, but that's not the point.
Now the 11-87 might be okay when compared with a $1500 shotgun, since the 11-87 is so much cheaper. But as long as the local Wal-Mart has brand-new 390s for $100 less than the 11-87...
throdgrain
Member
My 1985 1100 is just as nicely made as my 1977 Wingmaster really.
One of my shooting mates who owns a newish Beretta was commenting on how nice it looked just the other day. Ive only had it a couple of months but I suppose I've put maybe 2000 rounds through it without any problems, and they have all been clay pigeon shot.
Maybe what they say is true and the way to buy Remington is to buy older...
One of my shooting mates who owns a newish Beretta was commenting on how nice it looked just the other day. Ive only had it a couple of months but I suppose I've put maybe 2000 rounds through it without any problems, and they have all been clay pigeon shot.
Maybe what they say is true and the way to buy Remington is to buy older...
chas08
Member
Armed bear I never took it to mean that you would care, nor do I care what you shoot. I shoot what I like, and have confidence in, thats all.
Well using that form of reasoning. And things like quality of design and construction are not imaginary, nor subjective.
I guess the Winchester Model 12 is Superior to both because in terms of design, construction, fit and finish, it has them both outclassed. I'm glad I own two of them too.
I might have paid too much, I don't know what new ones go for now. I have about $700 tied up in the 1100 & 1187 combined. But I'm Happy and thats all that really matters to me.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Actually, the Beretta A391 (Xtrema) does recommend some high power shells be run through it for proper function of low power shells. I bought mine used but since I got it she has run everything from low powered 8's to 3 1/2 buck shot. It has run it all reliably, it will occasionally (about once every 500+ rounds) jam when using Wal-Mart Federal target loads, the other brand bulk loads are fine.
Anyway, I think the Xtrema's are bit different from Beretta's typical shotty, I'm sure you already knew all this. And I could be entirely wrong, it has been a long time since I looked at the Owners Manual and I'm not very familiar with Beretta's other models.
chas08
Member
Unfortunately it happens, and here of late, it seems to be happening to new Remington products a lot. I too would be afraid to recomend new Expresses or Sportsman models to those looking to buy for the first time. I wonder if the firing pins that broke in my benelli sbe1 were poorly made or just under engineered to take 3.5 in Goose loads?
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