Remington 1858 .44 New Model Army.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

My sister just brought it to me. It's made by Pietta. She also brought me a nice flap holster, and a knife made by Blackie Collins. (Whoever the hell he is. It's not handmade or anything like that but she done the best she could and I appreciate it. I understand that she dosen't know much about knives once it get's past her Old Hickory kitchen knives) She told me she and her husband had wanted to give it to me for Christmas but between her two children and her two grand children they just didn't have the money. She said she wanted me to have it and have time to get used to it before I go back home to Wyoming in a few months. (after spring thaw)
She know's I like Uberti but she also know's that I deal with Cabela's and have a lot of trust in them so she bought the Pietta from them.
I just got it about 4 hours ago. I'vd already shot it 18 times out the backdoor and then cleaned it and reloaded it, and rubbed plenty of Mink Oil into the holster, and NO I did not use any Ballistol on it!
Hard to tell from the picture but the fit and finish are real good and the action is smooth as velvet. It handles good. It really does...Okay...

If the ball is not hitting the target then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, the pictures I tried to post last night are coming in good this morning.
By God I believe in Santa Claus now! I stuck the photo on the post right above this one. I'vd got a pretty good camera but I don't know too much about lighting and that sort of stuff. (don't really know too much about how to use the camera itself either) When I get back to Wyoming I'll take a day and really check this '58 out. I sure like the way it look's and it seem's to handle real good.
I'm going to use the same powder load (like I did last night on those 18 shots) that I use in the carbine right along with the .451 balls.
I can't find anything wrong with the way it looks. Last night I sure as hell didn't find anything wrong with the way it shoots, so I guess maybe I got a good one. I have never been mis-used through Cabela's. Clothes, sleeping bags, whatever. Just have never been mis-treated with Cabela's, and if they can't answer a question they will damn sure find someone who can even if they have to call you 3 days later and wake you up in the middle of the night to give you the answer...Okay...

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[Z71]

I have a stainless steel Pietta 1858 .44 revolver. Really quite a good gun. Much better made than the average bp replica. Better made even than Colt style Pietta revolvers I own.

 

[Pancho]

I got a SS Pietta 1858 44. from Bass Pro shop for Christmas from my wife(bless her heart) I took it back because the handle fit was terrible. The gaps between the wood and the frame were big and misaligned. So being a consumer advocate I took it back to make sure someone took responsibiliy. Of course they didn't have another. So I've got the cash and I'm champing at the bit to choose another. One of our members has a SS ROA for sale and by Weds at 1pm it will be mine.

 

[Im283]

I just renewed my membership in the BP club with a 1858 Remington .44 5.5 inch barrel, steel framed. It is a Pietta and I bought it from the EMFCompany.

Have not shot it yet but look forward to it this weekend. I have a 1851 Navy that MacMac is repairing currently and I am dying to have that back, it is my first love.

Anyway I used to shoot 30 grains of BP with a 451 or 454 ball out of the
1851. This Remington came with a manual that asks for 15 grains. What is the difference? Both shoot the same ball. I don't get it.

 

[Bad Flynch]

I have one of the stainless 1858s from Traditions. It has adjustable sights and is made by Pietta. $219 out-the-door. It needed a little fine tuning from my local gunsmith and now it is a dandy weapon.

My other 1858 Pietta is the DGW "Shooters" revolver. It was sweet right out of the box and needed no attention to anything.

Can't wait for my Pedersoli 1858, but that takes 3 to 4 months to get it here.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I fire 30 grains of 3fff Triple Seven in my carbine and that is going to be the standard load for the revolver also. I know a few people who shoot that load in their revolvers and I know a few more who shoot that load in their carbine. Being Triple Seven 3f that will be pushing about the maximum load. I know lot's of people who read this will jump on here and try to argue but you can get away with that load especially for hunting. (Especially if you're more or less staying with one gun and not doing a lot of skipping back and forth. They have an old saying-"Beware the one gun man")You don't want to shoot it constantly with that load. Twenty Four (24) grains of Triple Seven 3fff is an all around and normal good working (and reasonably hot) load for the 1858 .44. -----IM283, I don't know why they do that. To cover their ass I guess. I know I have bought spare parts and stuff from Dixie Gun Works. Their standard reply was 22 grains several years ago. I swear, I don't care what sort of blackpowder revolver you were asking about, it was 22 grains. (I mean if you were asking about the .44 series)
Now, not the one called 'Jamie' I think they call him. He must be sort of a 'technician' or something. HE only reccomend's 22 grains for the 'standard' .44's. When I was asking a woman up there who answered the phone (several years ago) she recommended 22 grains for the Walker! I'm not lying! She really did. Now I just buy spare parts or something from them.
Oh, by the way, don't get me wrong here. Dixie Gun Works is a fine outfit. Good service and all. I don't know where they got hung up on that 22 grain stuff back then.
Now, see? THAT's one thing you don't get when you call Cabela's and tell them you need to speak with a product specialist about blackpowder revolvers or whatever.
I don't know why they do stuff like that...okay...P.S. Sir I just happened to think. Could it be maybe because of the shorter barrel length? I'm going to dig the manual back out and read it after awhile....

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[bigbadgun]

G of the C great looking pitol man you are one lucky SOB

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Bigbadgun, thank you. Yes, I have a good family. We grew up hard and hungry in these North Alabama hills but we always loved each other.
I was fortunate on the revolver for sure. I'm sure you just read where Mr. Pancho had to take his back. I bet that made him feel terrible in addition to maybe pissing him off a little.
What you doing up so damn early?!! I hope you have a good day Bigbadgun...Okay...P.S. I don't know for sure myself Bigbadgun, but I have read on here a lot that with some of these places one need's to go in and actually look and personally pick out whatever it is that they want...Okay...

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[sundance44s]

Gentleman of The Charcoal ..you`ll really enjoy the Pietta ..I`ve had one for a long time , only thing I don`t like about mine is the writeing on the barrel ..Mine has Cabelas on the barrel ..anyway something I can live with ..it`s a great shooter ..The Pietta 1858 frame is beefer than all the others ...Uberti is a close second ..for big hands the Pietta 1858 , is a good fit ..I `ve shot mine alot with 35 grs of powder , and it`s still tight .
Man you have a nice sister ....very thoughtful of her ...
Mine was shooting about 6 inches low out of the box , so I did a little fileing down on the front sight , now it`s POA . windage was right out of the box .

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sundance44's, thank you sir. Mine dosen't say 'Cabela's' on the barrel. It's got the writing on the left side about blackpowder only .44 caliber stuff and then on the right side it got the little proof marks or trade marks or whatever and read's F.llpietta made in Italy or something like that.
Thank you also for telling me you'vd shot your's a lot with 35 grains and it's still tight. I was glad to read that. I have a 30 grain spout on the flask I carry a lot...Okay...

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[sundance44s]

I ding the 100 yard steel plate buffalo at my shooting club all the time with mine and the 35 grs ..it`s very impressive ..and I have buffalo in my sights too ..aim about 4 inches down from the top of his back .

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

IM283, my manual's up in the cabinet so I just called Cabela's and spoke to a product specialist.
He just told me that on the blackpowder .44's that the maximun recommended load was 35 grains of 3f, (3fff) Plus that's what Sudance .44's just informed me that he shot in his also.
Now, the product specialist told me that the manual didn't state as to any specific make and model of .44., just blackpowder .44 revolvers in general.
So, one would assume (also according to the product specialist) that the manual was also speaking of the open top Colt models of the .44. I think everyone here would agree that the open top is not built as strong as the Remington model.
I do know a few people (Not many. I don't even know very many people who even own them) that carry 30 grains as a 'normal working load' whether they're shooting at tin cans or paper targets or rabbits or squirrels, or maybe sometimes at
one of these white tail deer running around here.
Maybe you could talk to Sundance44's about it. I just don't have the experience with one of them to be able to give you a definitive answer other than what the product specialist at Cabela's just told me a few minutes ago...Okay...

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter and not the gun, hmmm?

 

[mykeal]

Cabela's "maximum recommended load" of 35 gr fffg for all .44 cal revolvers also applies to the Walker, just to give you some idea of how much that's worth. I don't know that I agree that a Remington is necessarily 'stronger' than an open top (I dont' disagree either), but I'm pretty sure that a "max" load of 35 gr does not apply to both a Walker and an open top. So there is at least a small chink in Cabela's product specialist's competitive edge.

That being said, Cabela's number makes a whole lot more sense than the Pietta Remington manual. Fifteen grains is simply nonsense. I won't speculate on their reasons for that; clearly Pietta's manual writers and I do not think in the same terms, so speculation as to their motive is of no benefit to this discussion.

Here's my considered opinion on the subject:

Any of the current STEEL framed, Italian manufactured cap and ball revolvers can withstand a full chamber of 777 (and thus by implication real black powder). That is then by definition the maximum load for each gun. However, a large percentage of that powder will not be burned, but rather simply ejected from the barrel behind the bullet; the actual percentage depends on the length of the barrel. Further, the variables involved in determining how much of the powder is burned will result in inconsistent results and thus accuracy when using such loads. It is, however, a lot of fun.

The best load, or 'optimum' load, for any revolver is a function of many different variables, some of which are totally controlled by the shooter (such as the amount of compression, type and amount of lube, amount of cleaning before the shot, etc.). It's impossible to specify with any precision exactly what the best load for any given gun, or gun design, will be. It's necessary, and a darn good excuse to go shooting, to develop the best load by experiment. None of my 14 bp revolvers shoot their most accurate with either a full chamber or a minimum load of 15 grains. It doesn't take long to shoot a few groups and determine what that number is for your gun and your particular loading/cleaning/shooting techniques, so use the excuse and go make some smoke. Gentleman of the charcoal has apparently done that and is most satisfied with his results; I submit that you should strongly consider his data and go shoot some bullets to see how you like it, but keep in mind that your results might vary, and for some very good reasons. The idea is not to make 35 gr work but to find out what works best for you.

I don't own a .44 cal Remington; mine is the .36 cal Navy version, so I won't speculate on what I think the results might be for that gun. Certainly 35 grains is possible. There's also the issue of targets; some people would very reasonably argue that you need to increase the load for shooting live targets to get more on-target energy than you need for paper targets. That could very easily lead to at least 35 gr for that gun.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Mr. MyKeal, thank you sir. I am not certain I shall stay with the 30 grains I have fired out of the revolver. (I'vd only fired 18 shots so far) I probably won't fire it anymore until I get home to Wyoming. However, I have fired about 300 rounds (that's on the very conservative side) through the carbine and I find that 30 grains is a real good load for it with the .451 but of course it has an 18 inch barrel as compared to the 7&1/2 inch barrel. The 30 grains load with 18 shots SEEMED to work fine, but as I stated in my first or second post on this thread I will give it a good work out when I get to Wyoming. (I love eating Jackrabbits!)
I should admit here that the principal reason I fired 30 grains in the revolver is because the 30 grain spout was already on the flask (!) and I was too lazy to change the spout, plus I was in a hurry to shoot it, plus I already know 3 people who use 30 grains as a matter of course.
Mr. MyKeal, I DO need to clear up one thing. The product specialist DID tell me the Walker was the exception but since the gentleman was inquiring about the Remington with the 5&1/2 inch barrel I saw no reason to bring the Walker into the discussion.
I am really hoping the revolver will perform well with the 30 grains but I do have the 24 grain spout that originally came on the flask.
Mr. MyKeal I know and fully realize that Cabela's is not the be all and end all when it come's to blackpowder revolvers. It's just that when I first began in blackpowder shooting I had to depend on them because I knew of no one else to really help me get started. They have never told me wrong even though they must many times speak in general terms. (company legal restraints and guidelines) My equipment (boots, bags, stoves, heaters, lights, extreme cold weather tents, and many other things I have purchased from them) has always been of top quality and has always served me well. Hell, Mr. MyKeal, the Grundig shortwave radio I'm listening to right now came from them, plus right now the boots I'm wearing along with the cold weather socks, the blue jeans, the fleece lined corduroy shirt, my under wear, the Luminox watch, my hat laying here beside of me, and damn near everything else I own or have owned for years past came from Cabela's. Give me Cabela's and of course Wal-Mart Superstore for my food stuffs, and as far as I'm concerned they could pretty well close down all the rest of them.
However I understand there are other places whom I'm sure are almost as good.
Again, thank you for jumping in. I'm sure you already know I read every one of your posts very carefully and I always learn something...Okay...

 

[mykeal]

Didn't mean to dump on Cabela's product specialists. They are the model for customer service in any industry - Dixie's people could learn a lot from them. I suspect the general response to the question about .44 cal max loads is "the majority of .44 cal revolvers use a max load of 35 gr", and being human we tend to shorten that by leaving out the word majority when we recall it later.

My personal criteria for whether or not a gun/load/bullet combination shoots well is group size at a range that I'm likely to use it. That varies from 6 feet for a derringer to 300 yards for a scoped Winchester Model 70 in .223 Win Mag. A .44 c&b revolver should produce sub-4 inch groups at 50 yards given my eyesight and arthritis. There are certainly many people who can shoot better than that (so can I, sometimes) and they can probably do it with guns I don't shoot so well.

 

[bigbadgun]

FYI just to jump in here and I hope not to kill this thread also but.

I have found that 25 grains of Pyrodex P is a very good load for my 1851 navy in .44 cal
and 20grains of Pyrodex P is a good load for my .36 Remmie with the 5.5 brl.
however if I use real BP fffg goex I can bump each load by 5 grain and get the same results.

Again however with the Walker it does not matter if I am loading Goex or Pyrodex its a 50 grain load no more no less.

P.S. G of the C I think I want one of those 7.5 inch Remmies damn fine looking piece.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

My 1858 Pietta



Thought you might like a look at mine GotC! It's a competition model with progressive rifling although I can't shoot it as well as it should be shot if you know what I mean.
I cast my own .457" ball and make my own felt lubewads. I don't use the flask but I measure each charge and put it into plastic sealed tubes to load from. I use a bench loader and find it much better than loading the cylinder in the gun.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Bigbadgun, thank you. Yeah it is pretty. If you remember I alway's said what a fine looking piece the Remington 58 is with those adjustable sights. It was a fine present. Never really expected to ever have my hands on one. Hey, you're not going to kill a thread, at least with me. If the subject matter changes then so be it. It's all blackpowder and we're all in this together...Okay...

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

DuncaninFrance, Yes sir you have a fine looking piece. I like that benchloader. I like that case to. I'm sure I couldn't shoot well enough with it to do it justice either. If it's built for competition shooting than it is very accurate, I know that...Okay...

 

[dogrunner]

I love his quote from Fields!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


By the way, I've had my Pietta for way over ten years now, from Cabela's, and it has ALWAYS been a shooter. The thing will outshoot most of my S&W's but the POI issue was the same with me and I had to file it down some to get it on at about 25...........I just charge with BP to the top of the cylinder mouth and force a cast .451 to just clear the bbl. I do use felt wads, but from an accuracy perspective I really can't tell any difference. I would trust my life to that gun, its that good!

A great gun!

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Dogrunner, good evening. I read you sir, loud and clear.
I have a Remington 1858 blued Target Model. I just took the picture down a few moments ago. I never leave my pictures up very long. Figure people may get tired of looking at them I guess.
I know I would be willing to trust my life to the Cattleman'r Carbine and it's built on the same frame. I'vd only shot the revolver 18 times but it shot real good and the handling and the reloading was smooth and easy. I like that 'beefy' grip and frame and the weight distribution. I really do. I paid close attention to that.


Don't get me wrong here. I'm not a 'fast draw' artist or a damned gunfighter or anything like that. Mine will be used for hunting and possibly self defense. (I'm not even hardly thinking about people here when I say 'self defense'. I'm thinking more of a rabid coyote or a very brave wolf pack or maybe a rattlesnake or a mean ass cat or something along those lines.) But I couldn't help but notice that with a lot of the 2 lbs. & 11 ounces centered in the cylinder section and sort of slanting toward the rear, that 7 & 1/2 inch barrel came up and steadied on target pretty darn quick. Somehow, in my mind every time I saw a picture of it I knew it would be like that. It's a fine revolver. I believe that, and I know that to me anyway, it's look's are timeless. It will never pass away...Okay...

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[Im283]

Thanks for the input on powder amounts.

I shot about 40 rounds today. Used about 20 grains of FFF BP. Well the BP is about all gone and next time I will be using Pyrodex. Got a full pound of that.

One thing I discovered is that the gun hit POA more reliably as it got dirtier.
The first five to ten were no where near where I aimed. Then it really closed in on center. I don't claim MOA or anything, more like Minute of sewer lid, but I was pleased with the results.

Can't wait to try the Pryo this weekend. I will start with 20 grain loads and probably bump it up to 25 to see where thelead flies.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

If the ball is not hitting the target, then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm?

 

[mykeal]

Yeah. The Mag is a typo. I had originally typed 7mm Mag but that's not the gun I shoot at 300 yards, so I went back and changed it. Howver, the Mag was on the next line and I missed deleting it.