Remington 1858 conical choices..

[Rattus58]

I've been looking for alternatives to the .454 round ball for this pistol. The duelist listed two alternatives he tried, a 220 Lee it looks like and the Kaida Bullet... 240 grains that seems to fit nicely in the gun. There is a 252255 by Lee that also has been used by some but one feature of it is that it seems to be troublesome is that it has the disturbing attribute of dislodging with recoil.

Two questions I have about this bullet, one has anyone tried this bullet and "bumped it up" to .454 or somewhere near... and or has anyone tried patching it to hold it fast in the cylinder?

Thanks in advance... Aloha...

 

[kituwa]

Rattus,have you mic'd the chambers on your remington? I dont think most conicals are ment to cut a lead ring like a round ball.Mostare smaller at the base and get a little biger as they go in so they sort of swadge fit.I dont think all remington chambers are going to be the same size depending on who made it and what year they were made.Most people come to the conclusion that conicals wont shoot as accurate as round balls.I think the originals in the civil war time they shot mostly conicals but i think a lot of the originals had faster twist or even progressive twist barrels that more than likely shot them better.I belive it was the duelist vidios, that it looked to me like he was grouping very near the same with conicals as round balls shooting off hand but that was a ROA.

 

[Hellgate]

IF YOU CAN FIND ONE, the LEE 44 cal R.E.A.L. bullet fits Remingtons nicely. It inserts to the second driving band before being rammed home just like the LEE 200gr conical. They were single cavity only and carry a lot of lube. They were designed for the 44 cal rifles. The 45 cal REAL is OK for the ROA and is still made but is too big for the smaller chambered Remingtons.

 

[Rattus58]

I'll look into the REAL... I use them a lot with kids ... I guess I'll have to actually get a micrometer that I can measure the ID... I've a guage that does it in 64/s but still is hard to differentiate between the cylinders. That must be the discussions on rebated bases.. makes sense... Thank you.

Aloha..

 

[Zeke/PA]

I'll look into the REAL... I use them a lot with kids ... I guess I'll have to actually get a micrometer that I can measure the ID... I've a guage that does it in 64/s but still is hard to differentiate between the cylinders. That must be the discussions on rebated bases.. makes sense... Thank you.

Aloha..

Have a Machinist/Toolmaker friend using a small hole gauge, measure the chambers of the pistol and go from there.
As mentioned, ALL manufacturers don't use the same specs in chamber I.D.'s .

 

[rodwha]

Lee's 255 grain bullet is the one Kaido had modified for both of his bullets (240 and 255 grn). The 240 grn bullet, he said, is .456", and the 255 grn bullet is .460". He says the 240 grn version was meant for Uberti and Piettas, whereas the 255 grn was meant for the Ruger.

I ordered the 240 grn version as the diameter seemed spot on for what Ruger stated was the ideal size. I've used heavy loads (35 grns) of 3F Triple 7, which leaves just a little room, but have had the bullets jump on occasion.

The recoil from these loads is fairly stout feeling. Not quite 44 mag, but much more than a 45 ACP using +P ammo, though that was out of a 1911...

There's a fellow on another forum who recently got a mold to make 180 grn bullets that I received. It's beed raining all last weekend with flooding so I was unable to give a go. His projectiles are very reasonably priced ($11/100 + shipping IIRC) unlike the Kaido bullets, which were $40/100 + shipping, but have increased recently.

I used to believe that heavy was what I needed for hunting with, especially for hogs. But having read on another board guys who hunt hogs with cap n ball guns often, one of them prefers a RB as it's much more destructive inside of 25 yds. So it makes me wonder if a compromised weight would be nearly as destructive as the velocity would be higher giving it some expansion, yet heavy enough that it'll still penetrate fairly well. The meplat isn't as large, but it does have a flat nose.

What are your preferences for your projectile? Expansion or penetration? Plinking or hunting? Maybe a custom mold would be the way to go?

 

[MCgunner]

I have the Lee .454" 220 grain, the very FIRST mold I ever bought. It's nearly 40 years old and still in good shape. I also have one in .457 and a HP mold in .457. They shoot great out of my ROA, but my Pietta Remmy prefers the RBs. SO, I bought a .454 RB mold a while back.

 

[kituwa]

Rowda,that 240 Kaido is not a soft lead bullet,and with 35grs of 777 i imagine it would be very much like a good load in .45 colt for the ruger blackhawk.Those type loads will usually penitrate a deer from stem to sternum.I have shot a lot of pigs with handguns and i can say the .45 acp is NOT a good gun to use on one. You cant count on any bullet to expande and they usually dont penitrate good.I once shot a good sized one with the famed hydrashock bullet.My first shot hit him in the chest,my second shot hit him 6 inches up from his front hoof and the 3rd shot in the back of his head dropping him.The chest shot got one lung and i would have found him just from that but i wouldnt call it very good from the damage i saw inside.The shot in his leg had broke the bone but the slug was still in there and had not even expanded.The .45acp just does not have enough velocity to expand or penitrate well on game.I know 1911 lovers dont want to hear it, but the plain old ball ammo is prolly the est bet in .45 auto.Now with .45 super loads its a whole diffrent story.9x23 makes a great deer or pig gun.It runs about 1450 with a 125gr .I had a load for my browing high power that worked great on deer too but that load was smoking hot.Some guys saw a deer i was skinning that i shot with my 9mm load and they all thought it looked like it had been hit with a .270. Good loads in a .45 colt are great too.It is not hard i wouldnt think, to come up with good deer or hog loads for the ROA. The rememingtons or colts work great on deer or the normal size pigs with just round ball especially with some of the hotter powders like 777.You are looking at 1100 to 1200 fps with a pure lead ball ,thats bad news on a deer.I think your idea of a conical that is around 180 -200 grains is right on for bigger pigs. I love the 1911, i just dont think its a good hunting gun unless its been set up for .45 super.

 

[kituwa]

Come to think of it,,the ballistics of a .45 super would be near identicle to a a heavy load in a remington,but would be a soft lead bullet compared to a jacketed.Soft lead would not feed well in a 1911 and more than likely lead the barrel very bad too.

 

[rodwha]

Kaido molds his bullets with a BH of 7-11 he says. Not soft, but not hard either. I'm not sure if that's a little too hard on a repro's loading linkage.

I'm not sure how good a 45 ACP with +P's would be. I did carry mine with either 200 grn or 230 grn JHP+P's in case I ended up with a wounded hog. It was all I had. But I was just comparing the recoil from 2 large calibers that I'm familiar with to how the Old Army behaved with those heavier bullets and a stiff load of 3F Triple 7.

Using 25 grn of 3F T7 and the 255 grn bullet 920 fps were achieved giving it 470 something ft/lbs. That was a reduced load. I didn't reduce my load so it ought to have given a bit more. It sure felt like more. Felt similar to a cheap Winchester 240 grn 44 mag load in a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk. Not quite as stout, but similar. Without a chronograph it's really hard to say, but I've been told that chrono's aren't always accurate...

 

[Rattus58]

Have a Machinist/Toolmaker friend measure the chambers of the pistol and go from there.
As mentioned, ALL manufacturers don't use the same specs in chamber I.D.'s .

Have one in fact... good Idear... thanks..

 

[Rattus58]

Lee's 255 grain bullet is the one Kaido had modified for both of his bullets (240 and 255 grn). The 240 grn bullet, he said, is .456", and the 255 grn bullet is .460". He says the 240 grn version was meant for Uberti and Piettas, whereas the 255 grn was meant for the Ruger.

I ordered the 240 grn version as the diameter seemed spot on for what Ruger stated was the ideal size. I've used heavy loads (35 grns) of 3F Triple 7, which leaves just a little room, but have had the bullets jump on occasion.

The recoil from these loads is fairly stout feeling. Not quite 44 mag, but much more than a 45 ACP using +P ammo, though that was out of a 1911...

There's a fellow on another forum who recently got a mold to make 180 grn bullets that I received. It's beed raining all last weekend with flooding so I was unable to give a go. His projectiles are very reasonably priced ($11/100 + shipping IIRC) unlike the Kaido bullets, which were $40/100 + shipping, but have increased recently.

I used to believe that heavy was what I needed for hunting with, especially for hogs. But having read on another board guys who hunt hogs with cap n ball guns often, one of them prefers a RB as it's much more destructive inside of 25 yds. So it makes me wonder if a compromised weight would be nearly as destructive as the velocity would be higher giving it some expansion, yet heavy enough that it'll still penetrate fairly well. The meplat isn't as large, but it does have a flat nose.

What are your preferences for your projectile? Expansion or penetration? Plinking or hunting? Maybe a custom mold would be the way to go?

Round balls versus conicals.... I can attest, that a round ball whistle through, as I read ol sam fadala adjectivize, anything hit broadside with little skin to stop it... especially a 58... fadala loved the .54.. I've two... but the 58... well what can I say...

Pigs... If it is a small pig, not a problem probably . If it goes beyond 200 pounds I can tell you that with 70 grains and 530 grain conicals, killing it still happens, whistling through... not on one of my pigs... stopped the conical (minieball actually.. Lyman 530611) under the offside hide. To be honest, I don't know if a 280 grain ball would have gone right through or not... the ball does amazing things to a deer as well as go right through.. which in my opinion... is a LEAD THING!

I'm anxious to hunt with my Pietta with any bullet...

Aloha...

 

[kituwa]

I agree Rattus, a round ball does amazing things but its just so much fun experiments with things like conicals in a C&P too.Rodwha, it sounds like you are a lot like me when it comes to experimenting too. Hopefully i will have a Remington again soon too,its been a few years since ive had one.Still kicking myself for ever selling my ROA but that was back when they were still making them and i never thought they would stop.I have an 1851, a 1860 and a walker, but i have always felt the remingtons felt a bit better as a hunting gun than the open top colts, though i have shot more deer with colts than the remington or ROA.I need me a job like the Duelist so i can afford to shoot as much as he does,lol.

 

[splattergun]

I have a Lee .450 200 conical mould. I have molded a few dozen boolits with soft lead, even loaded a cylinder, but my chance to shoot them this weekend past got preempted by alfalfa irrigation (gotta earn my hunting privilege).
Loading them, they went in with thumb pressure to the 2nd ring, then I got just a hair of a lead ring when pressing, so I'm hoping they'll fly right. Shooting a Pietta '58 NMA 5.5".

 

[Hellgate]

Splattergun,
Figure on the conicals shooting a little higher than the RB. You may need to hold a little lower.

 

[Rattus58]

Splattergun,
Figure on the conicals shooting a little higher than the RB. You may need to hold a little lower.

Now that is interesting. Why would that be you think? Assuming the trajectory of the roundball to be flatter than the conical of ANY persuasion out to reasonable distance, say 25 to 50 yards, the only possibility might be muzzle rise, in my opinion, due to recoil from the conical.

Much Aloha,

 

[Hellgate]

There is more barrel time (lower velocity) and increased recoil from the heavier conical so the muzzle rises more before it exits. One time I tried in vain to develop a light bullet load and a heavier bullet load for my 357 mag that would print to the same POI so I wouldn't have to change my sights. No matter what powder or charge I used, the 110-115gr bullets always hit significantly lower than the 158gr loads.

 

[Rattus58]

There is more barrel time (lower velocity) and increased recoil from the heavier conical so the muzzle rises more before it exits. One time I tried in vain to develop a light bullet load and a heavier bullet load for my 357 mag that would print to the same POI so I wouldn't have to change my sights. No matter what powder or charge I used, the 110-115gr bullets always hit significantly lower than the 158gr loads.

That was kinda what I was sorta surmising to myself as possibility... Thanks....

Imelda... ??? Hahahahahahahaha..