Remington rifles fire on their own?

[mljdeckard]

I have owned several Remington 700 rifles, I currently own two. Replacing the triggers with Timneys is on the list of things to do, but not because of this issue. The M-40s the Marines were using when I was terping for them never had any problems.

This allegation of the REMOTE possibility doesn't change a single thing for me. It's as unlikely as any other possible malfunction. It would be like refusing to drive a car because someone told you once that you heard that it was possible that the brakes could fail.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Any mechanical device can fail, especially if neglected.

That said, I would wager that the overwhleming majority of rifles that discharged without the trigger being pulled had had the sear engagement adjusted way too low. It's easy to do, and if you don't know what you're doing, you can make the rifle unsafe very easily.

What happens is that there is so little engagement that a tiny movement of the bolt causes the sear to wiggle and release. This can be when closing the bolt, opening the bolt, bumping the bolt, moving the safety, even bumping the rifle.

It's a very simple trigger that's very easy to adjust, but you need to know the limits. If you ever tinker with one, you'd better be sure that opening/closing the bolt, engaging/disengaging the safety or bumping the rifle doesn't cause it to release. I've adjusted them quite low on varmint rifles, but never low enough for unintentional discharge to be possible. As well, those are only loaded when on the bench and facing downrange. My hunting rifles I leave alone, as they have decent triggers to begin with, and walking about in the field dictates at least a 3 or 4 lb trigger pull for safety, IMO.

 

[test drive]

Wow. had a friend call me about a month ago. he had been out deer hunting with his remington 700 that he has had for years. he told me he was getting ready to take a shot at a deer and when he switched off the safety the gun fired but hassent been able to duplicate the problem sense. i told him he had a ND not a AD. might owe him an appology.

 

[Strykervet]

So it HAS and DOES happen. I hate fake data, yellow journalism, propaganda, etc., but if there is a legitimate arguement here, then I also feel Remington should be held accountable.

I recently read where an agency was to oversee the industry and make safety a priority in design and oversee recalls and such, but that was abandoned when a memo or email popped up where they stated that they would more than happy to use this agency as way to implement "gun control" through the back door. Then it lost backing and failed.

I think something in place to regulate the industry would be nice, but obviously not a group bent on implementing an back door ban. This is the problem with the republican arguement that big business can police itself too. It can't, history time and again proves this. It would be nice for them all to agree to form an underwriter's lab... They did it with SAAMI already, so it does work. An independent testing agency that is part of the industry and makes decisions in the interest of the shooter and the industry --and not ANY political agenda, good or bad.

If we had a UL style lab, then any weapon not bearing the symbol would automatically be suspect in some way. It wouldn't be banned, but it wouldn't sell to well either, and manufacturers would desire this label. For instance, Remington would have been forced to fix the problem much earlier in order to get the label. Glock would never have released the 4th gen stuff or the ambi mag relase on the G20SF frames. I think it would be a good thing, and it would also serve to help keep the goverment out of this area of the industry --this idea should, and probably will, be implemented at some point in time. It would be infintely better to have the industry do it and not the government, obviously, as the last thing we need is another agency issuing royal decrees on behalf of the ruling party at the time.

Anyone else think this is a good idea? I mean, companies put a lot of money into designs and manufacturing, but then later find there is a problem. There is no drive to fix it if it is cheaper to pay lawyers to handle it and they will never be subject to recall. But losing the label or not getting it in the first place could kill it right out of the box. I'd certainly be very hesitant to purchase a firearm that could not get or lost the label, just like I would be to purchase ammo that was not loaded to SAAMI specs.

 

[Slamfire]

The trigger mechanism has remained the same from 1948 up to, heck 2000?

Long before the issue made television, a Korea War Veteran that I shoot with mentioned two hardware store new M721's that fired through the floorboards of vehicles.

The owners were outside the vehicles unloading their rifles. Obviously the rifles were pointed at their vehicles when the safety was taken off to unload the weapon.

The rifles went bang!


I think this was in the early 50's.

 

[kfgk14]

It's horse****, a blatant attempt by these "progressive", gun-grabbing, dirty, thieving, communist, fascist, nazi pinko bastards who want to maintain power and do so by taking our GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS away via similar smear campaigns.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
That was my attempt at self-censorship ^^ on the subject.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but it's not something that should be such a great issue as they regard it as. Remington made the appropriate recall, fixed it, people need to drop the subject now. There is a system in place to have any rifles in circulation fixed.

 

[jmr40]

its been discredited and many threads have been made on this

Wanna bet on that. I've got a 700 that has done it several times.

This is an old program. Very well done and accurate. Some guys simply want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend the problem doesn't exist. Remingtons have been doing this quite often since the 1960's. Remington has had over 10,000 incidents reported to them in the last 50 years.

CNBC simply repeated known facts that have been well established for a long time. There were similar programs on TV as far back as the 1970's and again during the 1990s warning folks about the possible dangers of owning 700's.

Remington made the appropriate recall, fixed it, people need to drop the subject now.

Remington has never had a recall to fix this problem. They don't even admit it exists. They did redesign the guns safety as part of a lawsuitin the 1980s making it possible to unload the rifle with the safety in the safe positon. This reduces the likelyhood of the gun firing, but does not address teh problem. They quietly redesigned the trigger in 2007 calling it an improved trigger. Fact is all they did was redesign it to the design proposed by Remington engineers 50 years ago.

 

[Yarddog]

I've got a '76 BDL Many a deer fell to it & NO problems as of yet, As I always have it pointed in safe direction before I take safety off ; )
Y/D

 

[Cocked & Locked]

I've got three 700's...one is a .35 Whelen with the old type safety. I've never had it happen. Who knows, might happen tomorrow morning when I go to the woods again.

 

[rajb123]

there were a few non-trigger touch discharges shown on tv...not sure if these were stock or modified rifles, however...

dont point a gun in an unsafe direction and no one should get shot....

 

[kb58]

This is a great study in how humans flip-flop on things as it suits them. Some say there's no problem at all and CNBC invented it. Then a few who know venture, "yeah, well, there were a few incidents." And then the first group will say "Well no one would have been hurt if they weren't pointing the rifle at them." What? First it can't be the rifle, then it's not the rifles fault when it <cough> might have done what they just finished saying never happened, so it's still no fault of the gun. Sorry, but that's a bit of a stretch. A mechanical defect is a mechanical defect, no matter what it's part of. People need to get over this near religious-like attachment - and defense - of firearms. They're just a mechanical tool, no more, no less. If the user messed with the trigger, that should be noted, but if the failure happened, it happened, and repeating a thousand times "no it didn't" doesn't make it so.

 

[PedalBiker]

I didn't watch the TV show, but I did look over the mechanical design of the Rem 700. I decided to put in a Timney.

The Remington design looks to be very safe as long as the mechanism is kept clean, properly adjusted and free of oil or water. Since mine is a hunting rifle I wanted a mechanism that was a bit more hardy.

 

[jmr40]

dont point a gun in an unsafe direction and no one should get shot....

In which direction would you like your gun to fire when you don't touch the trigger? Up in the air where it could come down and hit an innocent person a mile or 2 away. Or down into the ground where it could deflect or fragment hitting you, or bystanders.

This is an over simplification that does not address the issue. There have been over 10,000 documented cases of Remingons firing on their own, and only a couple of deaths and a few more injuries that I'm aware of. It appears that most folks are using pretty good muzzle control.

 

[Cosmoline]

Plaintiff lawyers have to make a buck somehow.

There have been over 10,000 documented cases of Remingons firing on their own, and only a couple of deaths and a few more injuries that I'm aware of. It appears that most folks are using pretty good muzzle control.

Where are you getting that?

I've got a 700 that has done it several times.

Tape it, show it.

 

[Kendal Black]

I think CNBC is calling a known failure mode an inherent defect. If a rifle is dangerously out of order, that is of concern with any brand. If it seems to happen often with 700's, could it be because 700's are very numerous? It is not as if these are the only rifles that will do the off-safe-bang! routine if seriously messed up.

Here is Remington's current retrofit program, and there is something clever about it. They will deactivate the bolt lock function of the safety for $20, and in the fine print,

[If] Your rifle’s trigger assembly is found to be in an unsatisfactory or potentially unsafe operating condition because of any number of factors, including wear, alteration or maintenance. [Then] The entire trigger assembly will be replaced with a new factory trigger assembly, which does not incorporate a bolt-lock mechanism.

If it's worn, corroded, out of spec or Bubba has been at it with the eyeglasses screwdriver, you get a new one. No extra charge beyond the basic $20 fee and S&H.

 

[jwsracin]

nice article if anyone wants to read it
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=2644
by the way i still see it this way, 5 million guns, some people say 10000 malfuctions well thats 0.2% of guns produced, and i would challenge any of you to show me a bolt gun, by any maker, that has never had an AD?

 

[Kendal Black]

This liability law firm claims over 5,000 'documented' complaints about unintentional discharges. http://www.hightangel.com/defective-firearms/

There are over 5 million 700's.

That makes roundly one problem in a thousand rifles, before you factor out problems that are traceable to grot in the mechanism, corrosion, Bubba messing around trying to turn a field trigger into a hair trigger, and all the episodes that are actually Rule Threes.

Moreover, the site says the 5,000 + figure is for "rifles containing the Walker fire control." Technically that would include the Model 600, which was recalled ages ago.

 

[jwsracin]

someone should start a poll- just to see who here trusts or distrusts the walker trigger, would be intresting to me just to see the number, sence this subject has been beat to death already anyway

 

[MachIVshooter]

but if there is a legitimate arguement here, then I also feel Remington should be held accountable.

For what, exactly? That's the thing; Even though it's been known to happen, there is no flaw. If there were, Remington probably would have been sued into bankruptcy long ago. There are a lot of possibilities, and you have to consider that their not being able to reproduce these failures or find a specific flaw in the design leaves the following possible causes for the discharge:

-Trigger adjustment messed with, most likely sear engagement is too little
-Parts physically altered to improve trigger, causing insufficient sear engagement
-Broken or worn part(s)
-Debris or dried lubes causing insufficient sear engagement
-Booger hook on the bang switch

Now, I have personally had to clean the goo off two of the six M700's I've owned because the stuff got really sticky and the bolt release was difficult to operate/did not return. So I think it's possible that the same semi-dried lube was present inside the trigger assembly and caused the poor sear engagement. As for the rest, though, I personally believe that the triggers had been adjusted to unsafe settings. Just having been inside plenty of them, I don't see how they could fail if they're in proper working order and properly adjusted/clean.

Always clean your guns after purchase and as needed after that. And especially used guns; I never take a used gun out without field stripping or detail stripping and thouroghly inspecting/cleaning. If you buy a used 700, take the few minutes to remove the two screws and take the barreled receiver out of the stock. If the sealer on the adjustment screws is broken or cleaned off, make sure the adjustment is correct.

Folks, gun maintenance is your responsibility, just as you car's maintenance is. If you never change your oil and blow a motor after 40,000 miles, expect the manufacturer to laugh in your face when you tell them you want the engine warrantied. Likewise, if you don't periodically inspect and clean your firearm properly, don't expect the manufacturer to do anything for you when it malfunctions.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Gun forum philosophy lesson for the night

When someone pulls the trigger and accidentally shoots themselves with a glock its a design flaw that glock should be held responsible for.

When you disengage the safety to unload a rem 700 and it shoots someone else its the everyone's fault and Remington is as guiltless and pure as the white wind driven snow

 

[MachIVshooter]

When someone pulls the trigger and accidentally shoots themselves with a glock its a design flaw that glock should be held responsible for.

I don't believe I've ever seen anyone accuse Glock of having a design flaw in their trigger mechanism on this board.

When you disengage the safety to unload a rem 700 and it shoots someone else its the everyone's fault and Remington is as guiltless and pure as the white wind driven snow

Whether or not the thing discharged, and even if it were a design flaw, why are you pointing a loaded firearm at another human being and disengaging the safety unless you intend to shoot that person?

That's the point here; Every one of these "accidental" shootings has involved carelessness on the part of the operator. Whenever someone is shot by someone who doesn't mean to, doesn't matter what make or model it was, the story is always "it just went off". Whether or not it did, in fact, just go off, the fault still lies with the handler for not observing safe muzzle control.

If it ever is discovered that there's a flaw (as though it were possible to have missed something wrong with such a simple mechanism on the most popular bolt rifle in the world in the last 50 years), Remington needs to recall them. But they are still not responsible for injuries or deaths. That is only the case when a properly maintained firearm with proper ammunition malfunctions in such a way that people who were NOT in front of the muzzle were injured as a result. Guy uses proper ammo in a properly maintained M700 with no barrel obstructions and the bolt goes through his face? Yeah, Remington's fault. Guy buys his M700, never removes the stock to clean and inspect trigger group and the thing malfunctions after 30 years of dragging it through the woods? Sorry, I just can't blame the manufacturer here.

 

[jmr40]

possible causes for the discharge:

-Trigger adjustment messed with, most likely sear engagement is too little
-Parts physically altered to improve trigger, causing insufficient sear engagement
-Broken or worn part(s)
-Debris or dried lubes causing insufficient sear engagement
-Booger hook on the bang switch

These are all true, and no doubt are responsible for a great many of the Remington discharges.

But no one is claiming this is happening with ANY other brand of firearm. Either there is a problem with Remington, or Remington owners are the dumbest gun owners on the planet.

I'm not out to get Remington. Own several, and would buy another. It just amazes me that there are so many folks who won't accept that there is a real issue here. Very rare, hard to duplicate, but real

CNBC has no reason to make up this stuff. Remington has every reason to hide the problem. The current Remington management is not responsible for this mess and are only trying to play out the cards they have been dealt by previous management who screwed up.

To admit there was a problem would mean close to a billion dollars to recall and repair all rifles made prior to 2007. Not only that but it would open the door for numerous lawsuits. They would be bankrupt instantly. Their only hope is to prepare carefully prepared statements from company lawyers that don't really tell the truth, without telling an outright lie. And to try to confuse juries with lawyerspeak.

In the meantime they hope that no one is injured when one of their rifles has a rare "Reminton moment". Since changing the safety in the 1980's the problem has become much more rare. As older rifles are taken out or use there will be fewer and fewer instances of this happening. There should be no problems with post 2007 rifles.

 

[Jeff82]

"by the way i still see it this way, 5 million guns, some people say 10000 malfuctions well thats 0.2% of guns"

Let's hope your safety philosophy isn't adopted by the airline industry (or even other gun manufacturers)!

 

[Kendal Black]

But no one is claiming this is happening with ANY other brand of firearm. Either there is a problem with Remington, or Remington owners are the dumbest gun owners on the planet.

This link may change your mind, and it is from a firearm litigation law firm. That is to say, more allegations, same alligators.

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/buyerbeware.pdf

 

[MachIVshooter]

It just amazes me that there are so many folks who won't accept that there is a real issue here. Very rare, hard to duplicate, but real

The reason is that no one (including gunsmiths and engineers) can point to a flaw in the design. I'm a career mechanic with quite a bit of experience in mechanical design and engineering, as well as a lifetime gun nut, and I sure can't see anything wrong with it.

The reason I'm so quick to blame the owners is that I'm well aware of how most people maintain guns (they don't), and it's just far too easy for bubba to watch half a youtube video and go crank the screws on his M700 until 0.010" travel under 5 ounces of pressure will drop the FP, and he thinks it's great-until the rifle is bumped and discharges (which is obviously Remington's fault)

I do not know what they changed in 2007, as I don't have an example that new to look at, but I suspect something to increase sear engagement and/or prevent people from being able to adjust sear engagement too far/at all. The old design can easily be adjusted to where the firing pin will drop when you close the bolt handle.