Removing Manufacturer's Name

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Art Eatman I was just informed via Email from an FFL that such removal is a felony.
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He's wrong.




danez71 ....The law may only say "serial number" but when read in its entirety and in the context of the intent of the requirement, IMO, you'll go to jail for 10 years or lose everything you've worked for fighting it.... or both!!!!
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Sorry, wrong.



rcmodel I don't agree with all this.

I agree it is illegal to deface, or alter the serial number.

But there is no law against re-barreling a rifle and tossing the old barrel with the manufactures name, address, and model number with a new barrel with no markings on it.

The ATF law everyone is citing applies to manufactures and importers.
Not owners.

To my knowledge, there is no law against changing a slide, or re-barreling a rifle and losing the manufactures name, address, and model number stamped on the slide or barrel.

It's done everyday in custom gun builders shops.
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100% correct.
Folks buy aftermarket Glock slides all the time.......and they don't have GLOCK stamped on them.
 
ljnowell said:
Good lord man, calm down, no one is pointing it out to you, you get to keep your pride. I was agreeing with you.
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I'm not upset and its not a 'pride' thing for me either.

It didn't seem like you were agreeing.... sorry if I misinterpreted.


I do agree that the letter of the law only makes reference to the s/n as applied to non-NFA guns.

I would even agree that the Ohio info I posted could be interpreted variously.


I'm only trying to provide actual statute/law relating to it so that the OP can make an informed decision taking into consideration a more complete picture rather than just 'It only says S/N. Its fine'.


I wouldn't want to take the risk of being arrested by an zealous LEO and having to fight my way out of it.
 
If that Ohio law is actually in place, it sounds like a consumer protection thing that might apply to a retailer. Lots of crooked retailers in all industries. I worked for several crooked retailers. All of them are out of business.
 
For generations, gunsmiths sporterizing Mausers relocated serial numbers to the barrel to allow for grinding or receiver ears, machining or sweating on scope mounts, etc. Reinishers often deepened or relocated markings. SxS shotguns had serial numbers on the water table not the outside (I saw that change about 2 years ago on imports--ugly!). S&W even offered factory grips that covered the serial number on the butt of the revolver grip.

Recent interpritations seem to be different. Some recent grips and chassis, even aftermarket, have had to have serial number windows added (all the Uncle Mike's grips I've had on revolvers for decades have no such windows).

It's best to ask. Winning in court can be Pyrrhic.

Mike
 
Jeez.... I guess I'll have to leave all of the original markings on the gun. I will still have a lot of space to work with after I polish the matte surfaces.

I do appreciate all of the inputs. I certainly am not going to "mess with the law". Maybe one day I'll be able to post some before-and-after pix of the old boy.
 
I was at a gun auction and I looked at a 1903. Couldn't tell what the S/N was because it looked like it was filled in with epoxy or something. I of course passed.
 
From a legal standpoint, isn't the gun the part that carries the serial number? I.e., the frame is the gun. For example, the frame of a 1911 cannot be freely sold by mail order, it has to be transferred via FFL; but every other part - barrel, slide, sight, sear, trigger, etc., is unregulated under Federal law and may be freely bought and sold in interstate commerce without an FFL. There is no restriction on replacing any part on the 1911 frame.

Likewise, if you have a Colt lower receiver for an AR-15, you are free to put a Bushmaster upper, an Armalite stock, a Rock River parts kit, etc., on it, because they don't obliterate markings on the frame - which, legally, IS the gun.

Some years back, it was in vogue to put Colt Python barrels on S&W revolvers. No regulatory issues there - even though the barrel said Colt, the frame still said S&W and carried the serial number. It was still legally an S&W.

If the AMT pistol in the OP has the serial number ON THE FRAME, saying that buffing out the slide is illegal also would mean that simply replacing the slide is also illegal.

So long as nothing is done to obliterate or deface markings on the gun - meaning, on the part that carries the serial number - I don't see how buffing/engraving the other parts would be illegal.

IANAL, so if someone versed in the law asserts that polishing the AMT slide is illegal, please explain why completely replacing the corresponding parts on other guns (such as 1911s) as described above is NOT illegal.
 
Seems to me that the real issue is the removal of identifiers, not the replacement of barrels or slides.

I'm not saying that I have any absolute knowledge. But there is a difference between what the OP wants to do and the comments about other gunsmithing actions/options.

I guess that if it were my deal, I'd try a phone call to BATFE and see what's what. Maybe the appropriate end of that horse could provide "true fact". :)
 
RC makes a good point in that for many guns replacing the barrel means removing the manufacturer's information and almost always the caliber. So it would appear to be illegal for anyone in Ohio (and maybe other states) to rebarrel a rifle or shotgun. I have not heard of gunsmiths filling Ohio's prisons, so I wonder if that is one of many laws that just isn't enforced until someone wants to enforce it.

Jim
 
If you go on a site like "Gemini customs" one of the services they offer is removal of the barrel markings which include the name,model,warnings and caliber. Everything but the serial number which of course is on the frame. Hard to believe they and other custom shops offer something that is federally illegal don't you think? I also have never seen anything saying the service is only offered in certain states but, that may be something I missed.
 
Arty said:
I'd try a phone call to BATFE
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But the law in question isnt Federal law (which clearly only states serial numbers) but Ohio law.
Maybe an Ohio-based firearms atty could be a better use of OPs calling card ;)
 
If it's just as illegal to remove manufacturer information as the serial number, why isn't there some sort of legal requirement that said information be indented onto the firearm like a serial number? I'm not questioning it being illegal to remove the manufacturer markings, I just think it's a little odd that the same indentation requirements for the serial doesn't apply to manufacturer as well, as evident in this example.
 
greenr18 said:
If it's just as illegal to remove manufacturer information as the serial number, why isn't there some sort of legal requirement that said information be indented onto the firearm like a serial number? I'm not questioning it being illegal to remove the manufacturer markings, I just think it's a little odd that the same indentation requirements for the serial doesn't apply to manufacturer as well, as evident in this example.
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Because the size and depth requirements are from the Federal law, and the law covering the manufacturers name is an Ohio state law.
 
Because the size and depth requirements are from the Federal law, and the law covering the manufacturers name is an Ohio state law.
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How is Ohio law applied to aftermarket slides and barrels?
 
Question for the OP:

In surfing the net after reading this I came across several pics of an AMT that had manufacturer markings on the frame as well as slide.

Like so:
wm_1505918.jpg

Is it possible this is all navel gazing on our part? If the mark is on the frame as well (which we all agree is the "firearm" per law) then the slide markings would just be cosmetic, and subject to the owners whims.

Fwiw, all this talk about Glock slides, Glock puts "Glock, made in Austria" or similar on the right side of the frame. So slide swapping not an issue there. Colt as well marks the frame as well as the slide of their current guns. Perhaps to sidestep this very question?
 
dogmush ....Fwiw, all this talk about Glock slides, Glock puts "Glock, made in Austria" or similar on the right side of the frame.
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because that is a requirement of Federal law/ATF regulations.



So slide swapping not an issue there.
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Not all "slide swapping" is with Glock slides. There is a number of aftermarket slides that don't have the word GLOCK anywhere on them.





Colt as well marks the frame as well as the slide of their current guns. Perhaps to sidestep this very question?
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Colt doesn't have to mark the frame, they just choose to do so.
There are quite a few NAA Guardian pistols with "Kahr" marked frames.....it doesn't mean Kahr was the manufacturer........NAA is.

§478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch; and

(ii) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(A) The model, if such designation has been made;

(B) The caliber or gauge;

(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;

(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and

(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134............
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Well how about this?

If I have a Rock Island 1911 with serial number 1234567, and find a nice Colt slide and barrel at a yard sale, I can legally mount that Colt slide and barrel to my RIA 1911 frame. Or can I?

Is there going to be a difference between obliterating or obscuring manufacturers info and replacing it with something else?
 
Of course you can.
That's what I said in post #12.

(Unless Ohio has outlawed building custom or parts guns?? Or repairing worn out ones???)

rc
 
Not all "slide swapping" is with Glock slides. There is a number of aftermarket slides that don't have the word GLOCK anywhere on them.
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I know. That was my point. If you put an aftermarket slide on a Glock, It STILL says "Glock, Made in Austria" Right there on the frame. So the question of whether you can take the "Glock" off is moot. You haven't.


Well how about this?

If I have a Rock Island 1911 with serial number 1234567, and find a nice Colt slide and barrel at a yard sale, I can legally mount that Colt slide and barrel to my RIA 1911 frame. Or can I?
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Sure. Of course your RIA is still going to say "Armscor USA, Pahrump NV" or some such, (I forget exactly what mine say) It's on the bottom of the dustcover.

RCmodel, I agree with your reading of the law (Federal, don't care enough about Ohio to look) my question to the OP wasn't about the legality, but rather if it mattered as I found several AMT's pictured online with the info on the frame as well as the slide.
 
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