Removing TC "Hawken" breech plug.

[Ugly Sauce]

This should be in the gunsmith section, but a response there can sometimes take a while. So, so sorry Charlie.

Anyhow, you know I picked up a TC for free, with a barrel coated with a strange mystery black substance. I got a replacement barrel off ebay, an early one with no black-powder warnings. Please, don't need advice on removing whatever is in the bore, I'm pretty knowledgeable about that, have researched it well, and tried everything. So, no suggestions there.

My question is, I'd like to remove the breech plug, in order to attack the problem again from both ends and get a better look, but have never done that. Any advice on doing that, or any problems associated with these particular barrels when removing the breech plug would be appreciated.

I plan to make a shorty barrel out of it, if I can save the rifling. So I'll cut it first and experiment on the section I cut off. But again if I can save it, I'd like to work on it from both ends, a straight through shot if you will.

And yes I know the basics, I understand putting it in a vice and which way to turn the plug...!!! (unless the TC has BACKWARD threads, to match the backward breech plug design.

Anyhow, are they difficult, or so easy a Ugly cave man can do it? Thanks.

 

[hawg]

It's really not advisable to remove it. It may not line back up when you put it back in. Other than that it should be relatively easy to remove it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Yeah, all the info I find on the net is "don't do it", "just get a new barrel", "you'll die a horrible death", and such, but this barrel is toast anyway, so I'm not gambling much. If I find a way to restore the rifling, remove the black mystery substance, I really need to be able to do it from both ends so that I can really see what I'm doing.

And, I've also read everything from "I did it and destroyed the barre/plug/whatever", and "an entire bus load of children died when I tried it" to "It was easy".

Anyhow, glad to hear one opinion that it's not rocket science!

 

[hawg]

Powder fouling mixed with petroleum lube maybe?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I take it that it's a patent " snail" breech? If so you should be able to remove it without a lot of cussing. If it's a drum you need to remove it first. A good vise and wrench that fits the flats well will go a long ways towards successfully removing the plug. A little heat may also help.

 

[The old gunsmith]

I've pulled probably a 5 gallon bucket full of TC breachplugs over the years and can honestly say that the level of difficulty can range from very easy to a real pain in the a$$. You do run a very real risk of damaging the breach plug and or barrel. First thing is to plug the nipple (I use a 1/4x28 bolt with some plumbers tape). Stand the barrel up on end and fill the barrel with penetrating oil and let it set for a few days. You can then lock the barrel in a barrel vise and use a action wrench with an insert fitted to the breach plug to break it loose.
You will probably have to put some heat on the barrel as well.
Now for the disclaimer. If you don't have the tools to properly secure the barrel and breach plug, you will end up damaging the barrel and breach plug trying to get it out.
If you find that the barrel is badly pitted, there are several shops that can bore it out and cut new rifling.

 

[hawg]

I take it that it's a patent " snail" breech? If so you should be able to remove it without a lot of cussing. If it's a drum you need to remove it first. A good vise and wrench that fits the flats well will go a long ways towards successfully removing the plug. A little heat may also help.

The TC is a snail breech.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I take it that it's a patent " snail" breech? If so you should be able to remove it without a lot of cussing. If it's a drum you need to remove it first. A good vise and wrench that fits the flats well will go a long ways towards successfully removing the plug. A little heat may also help.

Being a motorcycle nut/mechanic/builder I got a big vise and big hammers, and all sorts of wrenches. Got heat, and wise to the ways of using not abusing it. !!! Yes, not a drum, it's the TC "brainstorm" breech. Or perhaps the "LSD" breech, for the person who was high when they designed it. !!!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I've pulled probably a 5 gallon bucket full of TC breachplugs over the years and can honestly say that the level of difficulty can range from very easy to a real pain in the a$$. You do run a very real risk of damaging the breach plug and or barrel. First thing is to plug the nipple (I use a 1/4x28 bolt with some plumbers tape). Stand the barrel up on end and fill the barrel with penetrating oil and let it set for a few days. You can then lock the barrel in a barrel vise and use a action wrench with an insert fitted to the breach plug to break it loose.
You will probably have to put some heat on the barrel as well.
Now for the disclaimer. If you don't have the tools to properly secure the barrel and breach plug, you will end up damaging the barrel and breach plug trying to get it out.
If you find that the barrel is badly pitted, there are several shops that can bore it out and cut new rifling.

Hey thanks. No the barrel is not pitted, and I don't really see signs of any pitting. I have already replaced this barrel with another, on the rifle it was on, so I have no reason to spend the $$$$ to re-bore and re-rifle it. I have two other rifles I'd like to do that with, it won't be this one. ! Or in other words, the risk of damaging the breech plug or barrel is not an issue. The alternative is to let it stand in my pile of spare barrels and other junk until death do us part.

Yes I kind of figure it may come off easy, or not, but other opinions are most helpful. But again it won't be much of a loss if worse comes to worse. However, I do want to make a shorty barrel out of it, to swap in and out with the good barrel, if I can restore the rifling. Under just the right light I can see signs of rifling. Making a short barrel will allow me to experiment on the section I cut off. If I find a way to remove the mystery coating, I'll still want to remove the plug so I can get it cleaned all the way to the breech. Other wise it will be a lot of guess work as to if I've removed all the whatever-it-is consistently from muzzle to breech. If that made sense!? Clamping the barrel in the vise, and working it over end to end with the rod and brushes will be much easier that way. And again, I'll be able to see better, and look straight through the bore.

Indeed, I will let it soak for weeks, with a variety of penetrating concoctions.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Powder fouling mixed with petroleum lube maybe?

Your guess is as good as mine, but that has crossed my mind. But I tells ya Hawg, I've tried to SCRAPE it with sharp tools, and it don't budge. Navel Jelly don't touch it. It's a black color, so I would guess it's fouling mixed with something, but I don't know what would harden to that degree. And of course I don't know how long it was hardening before I got it. Could have been setting up for 20 years. Maybe someone mistook Gorilla Glue for a cleaning agent? When I first got it, the breech was also all plugged up with parches and other unknown brown substance, had to dribble 4fg into/under the cone and blow them out. The cloth was old and crusty and perhaps from someone's dirty underwear.

Anyhow, we've been having pretty nasty weather, so it will be something to do out in the garage/shop when there is nothing else to do! (other than snow removal, splitting wood, cutting wood, stacking wood, cutting down dead trees, bucking them up and making wood) The snow and the wood never end.

 

[hawg]

Maybe load a blank charge and fire it and see what happens. Maybe it will burn it out.

 

[MEHavey]

Re Post 10:

- We've determined the barrel is clear
- We've determined why whoever owned it didn't know what they were doing gave up and gave the barrel away

- We've determined what's left is .... "stuff" that won't come out.

Ignoring the breech plug for the moment... have you considered filling the bore which carb parts cleaner (parts dip liquid/not spray) and letting it sit overnite?

.

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

I have had two TC breaches that I removed. Tried the soaking bit.Might have worked with more time,like a couple of months. As it was ,it took a lot of heat.Just about red hot to get them off. They both went back on and stood heavy test loads when tested. I have something for removing carbon from guns. I can get the exact name for you. It's time for heavy treatment as nothing has worked. Guys used to ruin muzzle loading guns with Bore Butter..Bought into the idea of seasoning the barrel and not cleaning.I tried it for a while too.
Black Jack Shellac

 

[paul harm]

I have one or two pieces that go over the breech plug for removing them. I know I have one, too lazy to go down the basement and check. I bought them back when their Hawken had a 15/16 barrel and not sure if it will work on one of their 1" barrels. If I remember it's about a 1/2" thick and slides over the breech plug. The barrel is put really tight in a vise and a big adjustable wrench is put on it. It always worked for me, but maybe the ones I removed aren't quite as bad as yours. If you feel a need for one let me know.

 

[woodnbow]

Yeah, all the info I find on the net is "don't do it", "just get a new barrel", "you'll die a horrible death", and such, but this barrel is toast anyway, so I'm not gambling much. If I find a way to restore the rifling, remove the black mystery substance, I really need to be able to do it from both ends so that I can really see what I'm doing.

And, I've also read everything from "I did it and destroyed the barre/plug/whatever", and "an entire bus load of children died when I tried it" to "It was easy".

Anyhow, glad to hear one opinion that it's not rocket science!

Bobby Hoyt probably removes and reinstalls about 6 a day without issue. I’ve done it too but within 6 months we had one of the largest forest fires in Colorado history so I’m not sure I would do it again.

If you decide to chance it, get a good breech plug wrench (they show up on eBay all the time) and a good barrel vice. I use an 18” Reed smooth jaw wrench to apply torque to the TC wrench.

 

[woodnbow]

Like this… you may need to soak in kroil or some such but heat hasn’t been needed in my experience. If it is, apply heat to the barrel only to the extent possible…

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Bought into the idea of seasoning the barrel and not cleaning.I tried it for a while too.

I do suspect it could be "seasoning". No, I never bought into that one.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

View attachment 1123911




Like this… you may need to soak in kroil or some such but heat hasn’t been needed in my experience. If it is, apply heat to the barrel only to the extent possible…

Oh good tip, barrel only. That even makes sense, considering expansion. I hope to get it soaking today. I've never plugged the cone filled the barrel and soaked it that way. I'll give it a week. But, no kidding, I've put everything else known to garage mechanics on it with no results. Never have tried anything water-based now that I think about it though.

 

[hawg]

Once you get the breech plug out maybe use a little heat and a bronze brush. You don't want to reverse a brush in the bore.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Re Post 10:

- We've determined the barrel is clear
- We've determined why whoever owned it didn't know what they were doing gave up and gave the barrel away

- We've determined what's left is .... "stuff" that won't come out.

Ignoring the breech plug for the moment... have you considered filling the bore which carb parts cleaner (parts dip liquid/not spray) and letting it sit overnite?

.

Methinks there is a bit of miss-communication.

Yes, the barrel is clear.

Yes, the previous owner(s) had NO idea! The whole rifle was a give-away, and I replaced the barrel in question with a nice one off Ebay. $100! Early barrel with no warnings or black powder only.

Yes, "stuff" is coating the bore. But the breech is clear. Or maybe no one is assuming the breech is plugged? If so, my miss-understanding.

I've considered everything, but just now getting around to filling the bore and letting it soak. I've really had no interest in the barrel, since the new barrel restored the rifle to a good shooting rifle. The rest of the rifle, lock and stock, were in very nice shape. I then re-did the wood, and she's nice now. The reason I'm paying any attention to this barrel now is that I want to make a shorty barrel out of it, and then be able to use the long barrel for hunting, and the shorty for trekking, berry picking, that sort of thing. And just kind of a fun-gun. Two guns in one don't ya know. !!!

Even if the soak results in lifting the "stuff", I still want to remove the breech, so I can be very sure it is all removed right down to the breech. Want to be able to really work over the entire length and both ends of the barrel. Don't want a coating of the "stuff" in the last couple inches of barrel at the breech. ? Did that make sense? Without removing the breech, I don't see how I can really scrub that last inch at/ahead of the plug.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Once you get the breech plug out maybe use a little heat and a bronze brush. You don't want to reverse a brush in the bore.

EXACTLY! EXACTAMUNDO! Totally what I'm talking about, and would be impossible not to reverse the brush if I can't push it through. Thank you Hawg! Yes with the plug out, I'll be able to scrub that bore within an inch of it's life. And if I kill it, no big loss.

 

[shooter1niner]

I removed the plug with the tool pictured by @woodnbow in post #16. It was a TC tool (I believe it to be the one on the left) on a .50 cal Hawken.
Rifle had been shot a fair amount and always cleaned in boiling soapy water. It hadn't been shot in 30+ yrs. when I removed the plug. Piece of cake, lined right up upon reinstalling.
I guess I was just lucky...

 

[Ugly Sauce]

View attachment 1123911




Like this… you may need to soak in kroil or some such but heat hasn’t been needed in my experience. If it is, apply heat to the barrel only to the extent possible…

Yep. That looks like a Harley wrench for sure. You should see my cheater bars. I am a master of the cheater bar. Give me a long enough cheater bar, and I will move the earth. Or remove a rusted lug-nut off an ancient International truck.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I removed the plug with the tool pictured by @woodnbow in post #16. It was a TC tool (I believe it to be the one on the left) on a .50 cal Hawken.
Rifle had been shot a fair amount and always cleaned in boiling soapy water. It hadn't been shot in 30+ yrs. when I removed the plug. Piece of cake, lined right up upon reinstalling.
I guess I was just lucky...

Exactly what I like to hear. I don't think it's luck, or maybe it is. Just sometimes threaded things like to freeze up, sometimes they don't. I guess that would be luck, or at least luck of the draw.

 

[woodnbow]

Yep. That looks like a Harley wrench for sure. You should see my cheater bars. I am a master of the cheater bar. Give me a long enough cheater bar, and I will move the earth. Or remove a rusted lug-nut off an ancient International truck.

A lot of guys use a standard pipe wrench on the TC wrench. They’ll do too… heck, you probably won’t even need a cheater bar! Whatever you do, do not be tempted to just latch onto the hook on the plug… it twists pretty easily. I’m told…