M-4's Jamming in the 'Stan

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rc135

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DISTRUST IN THE DUST (www.StrategyPage.com) November 29, 2007: Last May, the U.S. Army ordered another $375 million worth of M-4 rifles. This got a lot of troops agitated because of the continuing jamming problems with the M-4 and M-16s. The emails have been flying among the troops these past six months, and apparently many were passed on to members of Congress and the media. Once more, the Army is on the defensive regarding its choice of combat rifles. The Army agreed to run more tests involving dust and reliability. These tests were supposed to take place in August. They didn't, and after several delays they are now to take place in December. Meanwhile, the troops keep passing around horror stories. The Army wishes it would all go away, but the web makes that impossible.

In dusty places like Iraq and Afghanistan, you have to clean your rifles constantly, otherwise the combination of carbon and dust in the chamber will cause jams. The Army and Marines both decided to stick with their current weapons, rather than adopt an easier to maintain weapon, like the XM-8 or H&K 416, because of the billion or so dollars it would cost to switch rifles.

If the issue were put to a vote, the troops would vote for a rifle using a short-stroke system (like the XM-8/H&K 416). But the military is not a democracy, so the troops spend a lot of time cleaning their weapons, and hoping for the best. The debate involves two intertwined attitudes among senior Army commanders. First, they don't want the hassle, and possible embarrassment, of switching to a new rifle. Second, they are anticipating a breakthrough in weapons technology that will make a possible a much improved infantry weapon. This is likely to happen later, rather than sooner, but the generals keep thinking about it.

Earlier efforts to just get the troops a more reliable rifle have failed. Back in 2005, the U.S. Army's design for a new assault rifle, the XM-8, was cancelled. But now the manufacturer has incorporated one of its key components into M-4 rifles, and calls the hybrid the H&K 416. Heckler & Koch designed the XM-8, which was based on an earlier H&K rifle, the G36. SOCOM is using the 416, but no one else is (except for a few police departments).

The XM-8 had one major advantage over the M-16. It (like the G36 and 416) uses a short-stroke piston system. The M-16s uses gas-tube system, which results in carbon being blown back into the chamber. That leads to carbon build up, resulting in jams. The short-stroke system also does not expose parts of the rifle to extremely hot gases (which wear out components more quickly). As a result, rifles using the short-stroke system are more reliable, easier to maintain and last longer.

H&K developed the 416, for SOCOM, at the same time the XM-8 was being evaluated by the Army. SOCOM got the first 416s in 2004, a year before the Army cancelled the XM-8. The 416 looks like the M4, for the only thing that has changed is the gas system that automatically extracts the cartridge after the bullet has been fired, and loads the next round. SOCOM can buy pretty much whatever they want, the U.S. Army cannot. SOCOM listens to what its troops want, the Army often doesn't. In trying to avoid embarrassment and scandal, the Army leadership is blundering into it anyway. Now the issue is getting revived, and is getting more attention from Congress. The Army doesn't like that either.


“They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally, they became heroes.” -- Princess Leia Organa

“War is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.” -- George Orwell

“If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free.” -- P.J. O’Rourke
 
As much as the M4 is a good weapon, it probably isn't the best weapon anymore, if ever. An assault rifle or combat weapon has to be tough as nails and fire under the most undesirable circumstances. And the troops are saying that isn't happening, so I'm all for a new rifle for our boys.
 
Funny, but I am pretty sure we have seen the 416's claims beaten beyond any dead horse around here.

HK has this magic pixie dust that sells anything to SOCOM regardless of if it works. And they still hate you. I mean, Santa has a list with 3 columns: Nice, Naughty and then "Treat like a HK customer".

apologies for the wiseass tone.
 
Yeah, trust 19 year olds for their opinions on weapons systems.

M16/M4 systems work if you keep them clean, just like M1 Abrams and jet fighters.

I don't recall hearing complaints from the Isrealis who use M16s, British SAS also use M16 systems in the desert...
 
Man I love these BS letters. I have yet to hear a single soldier complain about their M4/M16.

The reason the army wants people to shush up about it is because it isn't true! The internet does exist and guess what....people use it to lie about EVERYTHING.

You want to talk about voting? Shouldn't we at least poll soldiers to find out if there is a problem?
 
Well if I was a Brit I wouldn't complain about being issued a M16/M4 either , otherwise your liable to get a SA80 back :uhoh:
 
I don't think anyone is saying that a clean M4 will jam. The issue is that they are not resistant to the very quick accumulation of dirt that our troops encounter in the sandbox. And once they're dirty, they do jam.

I'm all for a new rifle for our troops. There are lots of guns out there that can take more abuse.
 
I have yet to hear a single soldier complain about their M4/M16.

I know several. One almost died in Iraq because his M4 jammed while an insurgent was charging him with a machete. He had to drop the rifle and expend half a mag of 9mm through his sidearm, and finally dropped the attacker only a few yards away with a headshot.
 
Does the use of CLP figure into any jamming problems?

My trap range used it on some trap machines. They gunked up almost immediately. There's a real problem with using a solvent as a lubricant, in the field. A REAL problem.
 
I can't help wondering what you use a machete for in the 'Stan or Iraq.

I never had a problem with my M16, but I took care of it. It is interesting to note that when the Army first reported on weapons performance in Iraq and Afghanistan, and this surfaced, it was traced back to troops who had mostly never engaged in close combat.

The M16 is a know quantity. Are there better weapons? Probably, but a new weapon will mean new problems will have to be worked out in combat. Not the best time. Most of the wonder-rifles currently recommended (HK 416, XM8, etc) have never been tested in a combat environment. Their reputation rests mostly on marketing collateral.
 
I can't help wondering what you use a machete for in the 'Stan or Iraq.
In one of the most violent regions of the world, you can't think of a reason some guy might sharpen up a piece of metal?
 
Man I love these BS letters. I have yet to hear a single soldier complain about their M4/M16.

I got out of the National Guard over 15 years ago, but I had M16's jam on me on several occasions during the six years I was in. Virtually every M16A1 that I fired could not be relied on to fire, load or eject every time I pulled the trigger. I had an XM16E2 during AIT that was pretty good and later on the M16A2's we got were alright, but those old, worn out M16A1's have left a bad taste in my mouth ever since.
 
those old, worn out M16A1's have left a bad taste in my mouth ever since.

No doubt they have!

Of course, that's an argument in favor of keeping the known and revised platform.

If we get a whole new weapon, there will be a generation who curses it for its problems, and the A1 revision too, until we finally get it right in the A2 and later versions.
 
It's funny, I read these articles every so often... yet I deal with those in the military on a daily basis, and I would estimate that the 9 out of 10 of our troops have little if anything bad to say about the M4/M16.

My own personal experiences with the platform only support my beliefs... that it is a great weapon and is actually very reliable for the most part.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess this thread goes 5+ pages though, unless it gets locked first.
 
Never had a problem over there that a piston would have solved. However the plethora of small locking lugs and their corresponding recesses milled to tight tolerances did. The fine alluvial dust/sand around tallil made its way into every nook and cranny. A chunk o' baby wipe wrapped around an old chamber brush worked wonders though.
 
Don't like your M4?

Here! This is the new M44, guaranteed to shoot about the same, no matter what you do to it. As an added plus, the buttplate is super-durable, the sights don't have batteries to replace, and if you add any accessories to it, you won't even notice the extra weight!

m44.jpg


Think there would be a lot of takers?

(I wonder if any Mosin fanatics will show up here and say that the Mosin would be a FINE weapon for our soldiers and Marines.)
 
Shooting on the range and keeping the gun in your cabinet is one thing, carrying it through a swirling dust bowl and putting rounds through while your life depends on it is another.

The M4 has done a great service, but just because you like it doesn't mean you have to keep it if something does the job better. It's an old design that "craps" where it eats and naturally just is more prone to get some gunk built up inside it. Add battlefield stress and conditions and you get jams.

If its true, the problem needs a fix, if its exaggerated, then everyone can sleep sound at night.
 
I wonder how many of the problems with rifles are just old rifles that need to be rearsenaled? (new springs, check headspace and refinish)
I could see a wore out buffer spring having trouble going all the way back to battery vs a new buffer spring in the dust.
 
elmerfudd said:
I got out of the National Guard over 15 years ago, but I had M16's jam on me on several occasions during the six years I was in. Virtually every M16A1 that I fired could not be relied on to fire, load or eject every time I pulled the trigger. I had an XM16E2 during AIT that was pretty good and later on the M16A2's we got were alright, but those old, worn out M16A1's have left a bad taste in my mouth ever since.

Lots of people had problems with the A1. We don't use the M16A1 any more. Thank you for your service.
 
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